Encyclopedia vs. in-game unit data

[Drawde79]

I remember in earlier posts regarding inaccurate statistics for vehicles, weapons etc. in ToW's unit encyclopedia, that a developer stated that the values shown in the encyclopedia are not those used in-game.

However, my experiences with modding ToW seem to indicate that this isn't the case - change the data for a unit or weapon, and the altered values show up in the encyclopedia as well as in the game. There certainly doesn't seem to be a seperate database for the encyclopedia.

[thewood]

Now that is a problem. Looking at the encyclopedia data, I think there may be issues. I know someone from BFC said several times they were completely seperate and a couple of 1C people confirmed it. It was one of the threads started by Redwolf.

Here is one of the threads (sorry not started by redwolf, merely a key contriuter).

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=63;t=001092

[ July 04, 2007, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: thewood ]

[SlapHappy]

Tank shells and Faust rounds are tied to a penetration table. Even if you change the characteristics of the ammo, as far as these types of rounds go, penetration will always be calculated by those tables....

All grenades can affect armor based on their "splash" rating. The higher the "splash" (blast) rating, the more powerful the AT effect. The only exception are HEAT type grenades, which are, again, like the faust, tied to a cumulative (single) penetration value.

I've done tests, making the Panther HE shell into a massive blast weapon, but as long as the penetration table remains unchanged, the result remains unchanged.

[Drawde79]

Are you saying then that the armour penetration values in weapon .ini files don't actually affect the in-game behaviour of the weapon? What's the name of the file where the penetration table is stored? (data\settings\damage.ini contains data for HE effects, but not AP) - or are you just referring to HE/HEAT rounds, not AP?

Data for vehicle armour thickness is definitely the same in-game as displayed in the encyclopedia (though angle/slope is calculated from the 3D model, not stored in the .ini files). Reducing the "armour thickness" of trucks to 1-2mm has made them noticeably more vulnerable to small-arms fire.

[SlapHappy]

No, I'm saying that the penetration values are the ONLY thing that affects penetration for HE/HEAT/AP when fired from tank guns. I had originally though HE tank shells were influenced by things like their SOLIDPOWER rating and their BLAST rating, but further tests have shown that only altering the actual penetration (ranged) table will influence the actual result. So, in effect, the values in the encyclopedia are EXACTLY the values used in the game, at least as far as my experience with this has borne out.

[SlapHappy]

As stated the only exception to this is grenade-like weapons which rely on a formula of 30,000 blast units to penetrate 40mm of armor. Note the average grenade has nowhere near that rating. The closest is the RPG-40 and RPG-41 which have been "jacked-up" or "gamed" to values of 15,000 and 20,000 to give penetration values of 20mm and 25mm respectively.

Other than that most grenades won't even damage a truck or car unless you lower their equivalent armor rating as you state in the above example. Although they often will kill the driver or passengers because of blast/shrapnel effect.

[Drawde79]

What do you think should be done regarding fixing the grenade effects, assuming these aren't going to be fixed in an official patch?

Should other AT grenades/charges (Geballte Ladung, Gammon Bomb etc.) be given similar blast power to the RPG-40 or is it possible to improve the damage calculation system via editing damage.ini?

I've also found that regular fragmentation grenades are still near-useless against unarmoured vehicles, other than sometimes killing the crew, even when their armour value is reduced.

[rune]

Guys,

I KNOW I sent them the correct numbers, and in the thread posted above, I see from the developers:

SoaN

Moderator

Member # 23565

posted May 08, 2007 01:34

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All penetration values are counted in one system. All penetration angles are 0 degrees when it’s counted.

You may have hit on a bug if you are seeing something. Do some more testing and forward anything you find to me, and I will send it to them immediately.

Oh and Ryan, before going off on a giant conspiracy thread, a simple question here goes a long way.

Rune

[rune]

OK, I emailed Martin to get an answer on this, and hopefully he will hear from 1c soon. Go ahead and still let me know, but I will see if the value in the .ini are what are used in game. I know the tables I created are different then the encyclopedia and ini files.

Rune

[Redwolf]

Let's be honest here:

Like any other game developer this one is under time pressure to get the game out the door.

How likely is it they research two different sets of armor penetration stats (and why, anyway?) and then go through the trouble of coding one table system for display use and when they are done do a second one for combat calculations?

All those man-hours can spent can be spent elsewhere, on pressing issues that prevent the game from getting released/accepted-by-bfc/patched etc. Which business supervisor would authorize the above work?

[thewood]

Originally posted by rune:

Guys,

I KNOW I sent them the correct numbers, and in the thread posted above, I see from the developers:

SoaN

Moderator

Member # 23565

posted May 08, 2007 01:34

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All penetration values are counted in one system. All penetration angles are 0 degrees when it’s counted.

You may have hit on a bug if you are seeing something. Do some more testing and forward anything you find to me, and I will send it to them immediately.

Oh and Ryan, before going off on a giant conspiracy thread, a simple question here goes a long way.

Rune

Are you referring to me? I said nothing about a consopiracy going on. Getting a little defensive, but can't say I blame you. I was just pointing out that a few people had already brought up that the encyclopedia stats were suspect and got a snippy reponse to ignore them.

[SlapHappy]

Originally posted by Drawde79:

What do you think should be done regarding fixing the grenade effects, assuming these aren't going to be fixed in an official patch?

Should other AT grenades/charges (Geballte Ladung, Gammon Bomb etc.) be given similar blast power to the RPG-40 or is it possible to improve the damage calculation system via editing damage.ini?

I've also found that regular fragmentation grenades are still near-useless against unarmoured vehicles, other than sometimes killing the crew, even when their armour value is reduced.

Well, I've posted a few threads questioning the validity of the RPG-40's performance. To be fair, the weapon has simply been given performance characteristics consistent with what little info can be derived from various internet sources. And I do mean very little. I still question it though. If the RPG-40 can indeed destroy armored surfaces up to the 20mm given with approximately 765-795 grams of High explosive, then the capabilities of almost all the other grenades and tank shells seem rubbish to me. Even the largest of HE tank shells traveling at high velocities aren't rated to penetrate anymore than 19mm (in game). So an over-sized grenade lobbed onto a PZ IVH can knock it out, but a 100mm HE shell fired at high velocity can't? Seems like the model would be more accurate if they used the same system for the tank HE and the grenades collectively. Then you could have burst effects which affected the top deck armor of tanks when striking the turret. Right now that isn't happening. Jeff Duquette sent me some nice diagram material showing just such results in a recent email.

[SlapHappy]

Incidentally, the data for the Geballte Ladung is broken. The grenade bundle has the same blast rating as a single M24 grenade. You don't need a lot of military sources to know that can't be right.

[SlapHappy]

OK. Due to a bonehead file copying error, I have to amend my original statements.

The tank shell values DO EFFECT armored vehicles. In my original test (with the data files copied over properly) I adjusted the 75mm tank shell for the Panther to 15000 SOLIDPOWER value and 40000 SPLASHPOWER value. The modified round does some nasty things to the tank. There is nothing to indicate it is actually penetrating the tank, but rather blowing off tracks, dislodging the turret, disabling the gun, killing the crew (or at least sending them into major panic) and sometimes all of the above.

It's like aircraft bombs are being shot into it. I still don't know to what extent SOLIDPOWER factors into the equation of material damage, but I believe it is a "force multiplier" of the effect of the BLAST rating. The answer probably lies in that damage.ini file. If someone is good at translating Russian, the file has a lot of comments imbedded in it.

[SlapHappy]

I just "fixed" the PZ38t to be compliant with pre-Nov. 1940 armor ratings and all the armor ratings showed up in the encyclopedia exactly as I had specified.

BTW, I've figured out how the damage.ini file effects HE ammo vs. armored units. There is a variable called "SplashRadius" which determines how large of a radius a bursting HE shell will effect armor based on the "SplashPower". The original setting is .01 meaning only 1% of the blast is directed around the detonation point. This is important because it determines the effect HE will have on a tank's deck surface when an HE shell impacts something like the back of a turret (or the front of a turret when the vehicle does not have a heavily armored glacis plate). It can also effect gun disablement and track damage as well, under particular circumstances.

[thewood]

What is the impact of the encyclopedia being directly linked to the game data? does that mean all the inconsistencies we see are actual in game issues?

[SlapHappy]

Originally posted by thewood:

What is the impact of the encyclopedia being directly linked to the game data? does that mean all the inconsistencies we see are actual in game issues?

Pretty much. Other than the modifying variables I mention above, penetration is what you see. If you are strictly talking about APCBC and AP type ammo, then you can pretty much take the numbers at face value. The only thing I'm not familiar with is how the system accounts for non-0 degree armor when calculating penetration. I'm also not sure if there is still some ammo/gun variables that effect armor-piercing ammo in the same way that they (could) affect HE ammo (if the effect of blast weren't so marginalized). I'm going to do some more testing. The good news is that modifying the data is extremely easy once the necessary data files are un-packed using Dr. Jones extraction tool.

[Redwolf]

So all that blah-blah in the other threads were straight lies?

What about the 30 degrees versus 0 degrees data issue?

[SlapHappy]

I don't know if anyone is "lying" here. I just know that the penetration tables go straight through to the game GUI and to the encyclopedia. That is a fact. I still don't know armor angles. I can't find anything that would influence that yet.

Maybe some miscommunication between BF and 1C? Who knows? Again, the good news is if you get the unpacking tool, you can set them to anything that makes you happy....for every unit in the game...and armor values as well.

I set all the penetrations for the APBC ammo in the Panther to "2". Then I jacked up the SOLIDPOWER rating of the shell and set it's mass to something like a mid-size car. Then I blasted away at a practice T-34. It rocked it like it was being slammed pretty good, but I couldn't influence the destructive power of the shell anymore with these settings. So the penetration tables are what's controlling it all. Unlike the HE shells which when jacked up to a high level will blow the **** out of medium and heavy tanks like they were hit by an aerial bomb. i also figured out how to control the blast wave effect in the radius of the blast as it pertains to armor penetration. You can create turret hits which will splash down and penetrate the top deck armor.

Pretty cool.......

You can't "roll" a tank with explosives, however......sigh.....

[thewood]

I thought someone from 1C actually came on the forum and was pretty explicit about the three different data sources.

[rune]

No redwolf it was not straight lies and I would be careful on saying that.

The table I filled out and sent to 1C in their format are different then what is in the encylopedia, and as in this thread, I posted that 1C did say the encylopedia is factored in a different way from the tables. I do NOT know if the numbers I sent them are hard coded in, and then if modded, these are used. I forwarded the information to Martin, but I have YET to get anyone to send me something I can send 1C.

The figures I researched and sent are within 1mm of Bird's book, and people like John Sale reviewed them. I even sent copies of the spreadsheets to people here online to review.

Don't cross the line and call me a liar. I deal very much straight up. is there a bug, or something else hidden under the Code? I can't answer..I didn't code it. Someone give me something to go to 1C with, and I will.

thewood, yes, someone from 1C did indeed say that.

Rune

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by thewood:

I thought someone from 1C actually came on the forum and was pretty explicit about the three different data sources.

Well, I can't even tell who's from 1C and who's just a fanboi, except maybe by the fact that the 1C people never give a straight answer to anything and the fanbois are know-it-all types.

Overall in the other thread there was a clear statement, supposedly from 1C, saying that it doesn't matter that the displayed penetration values for at 30 degrees for the German guns and at 0 degree from the Soviet side since it is not what is used for combat calculations.

For reasons stated above I can bullhonk on that claim. There's no way they have multiple databases for no reason. The communications between 1C and this forum also leave to be desired and all we hear from BFC is that they don't know either. And this has been going on for months now.

[SlapHappy]

Originally posted by Drawde79:

What do you think should be done regarding fixing the grenade effects, assuming these aren't going to be fixed in an official patch?

Should other AT grenades/charges (Geballte Ladung, Gammon Bomb etc.) be given similar blast power to the RPG-40 or is it possible to improve the damage calculation system via editing damage.ini?

Well if you lower the blast rating requirement to damage armor, it will affect all HE based weapons, so editing the individual splash rating will probably give you the best control over each weapon individually.

I've also found that regular fragmentation grenades are still near-useless against unarmoured vehicles, other than sometimes killing the crew, even when their armour value is reduced. [/QB]

That's because the splash value rating is marginalized to only .01 factor (1%) of it's rated radius vs. armor (or trucks and cars in this case). It's killing the crewman because he is exposed to the effect through the glass window. Yes this is simulated in the damage model....

The relevant code from the game:

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">

[ARMOR]

// armor thikness scale relative to steel by damage type

// SOLID

EMPTY 0.000

HOLE 0.000

STEEL 1.000

BRICK 0.100

CONCRETE 0.200

WOOD 0.020

EQUIPMENT 0.300

GASOLINE 0.010

GROUND 0.050

GLASS 0.010

WATER 0.040

BODY 0.010

</pre>

[SlapHappy]

Drawde

In addition, if you back-calculate the numbers for splash penetration vs. armor used in the game, it requires 750 splash points to penetrate 1mm of armor. Therefore, if you set armor rating to even only "2" value, you still need 1500 splash value to overcome that armor level.

If you look at the splash values for most grenades, they do not approach these values:

[base]

Name M_24

[Properties]

AiAmmoType HE

TraceMesh 3dobj\weapons\ger\m_24\mono.sim

TraceColor 00 00 00 00

Kalibr 0.00001

Massa 0.5

SolidPower 14

SolidPowerRadius 0.1

SplashPower 720

SplashRadius 2.4

FragmentPower 107

FragmentRadius 8.0

PierceEffects PierceEffects_020-039mm

PierceSounds PierceEffects_020-039mm

ExplosionEffects ExplosionEffects_040-069mm

ExplosionSounds ExplosionEffects_040-069mm

So with a SPLASHPOWER of 720, still not enough to penetrate 1mm equivalent armor. For the effect you desire it may be necessary to lower armor rating values BELOW 1 to achieve penetration for trucks and cars. Or decrease the amount of SPLASHPOWER global values required to penetrate more armor thickness. Keep in mind this method will affect ALL grenades and HE shells in the game as well as any APHE rounds which have measurable levels of HE content in their warheads.

Hope this made sense.

[ July 10, 2007, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: SlapHappy ]

[Oudy]

I'm certain that SlapHappy is correct in saying that the basic data like penetration values of the guns and armor values of the tanks are taken from the .ini files in the \data\ directory. These are the same values that appear in the encyclopedia. However, how the game calculates the chance to hit or penetrate is something that only 1C knows. Those calculations are not available in the .SFS files, but are probably within the .exe files.

I would like to give a hearty thanks to Rune for the data he presented to 1C and Battlefront. For as many weapons, units, and ammunition that are modeled in the game the data is pretty darn good. If you look hard enough, you can always find a few places where the data seems to have been fudged or is questionable, but on the whole the data is very good.

Thanks also to SlapHappy, who is daily uncovering more of the mysteries of TOW.

Oudy