Editing Vehicle files

[wokelly]

[/qb]

Oudy, as much as we appreciate you working on the firefly, its completely wrong. No sherman firefly was based of the sherman 76 series like you have.

Fireflies looked like this:

Its more then just some cosmetic issues. The Turret is different, the hull is different, more sloped and with less armor, and the speed is different.

The sherman firefly used the chassis of 2 types of shermans, the M4A4 and M4A1, called the Sherman VC and Sherman IIC respectively.

NO Sherman firefly used the Sherman 76 chassis. For all intents and purposes you should stick the 17 pounder on the hull of the M4A2 chassis since it looks so close to the M4A4 which is not modelled in game I believe.

[ June 10, 2007, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: wokelly ]

[nev403]

What was the difference tween the A3 and A4 wokelly? The hulls look identical, the A3 short 75 should work as a Vc too. The A2 had a bit thicker upper front hull armour and different slope then the A3 A4(64mm@47deg in the A2 vs 51mm@56deg in the A3 and MkV) .It must be the A4 version im thinking of that the US didnt use much. I had forgotten that there was an A4

Where do i know your handle from? are you in ww2ol ?

[ June 10, 2007, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: nev403 ]

[Oudy]

Wokelly

I know it doesn't look like it should. I didn't change any graphics files. I chose the closest sherman body and added the correct gun. The stats are correct, but the graphics aren't. I'll take a look at the M4A2 chassie. If it is closer to the Firefly, I'll use it.

Nev

Thanks for the data. I appreciate the help.

Oudy

[nev403]

Glad to help , The more weapon systems added to the game , the better for all of us I dont have the knowledge to mod files , i do have some of the needed info on vehicles i can add to the pile That picture that Wokelly posted is a modern collectors restored firefly i think , they added extra chunks of plate to the hull and right front side of turret shortly after the fighting started in Normandy and they are missing on the 1 in the photo , The commander is also a department store dummy from the looks of it heheheh . That may also be the slightly smaller turret that was used mainly on the IIc(hard to tell unless you see them beside each other) , altho the hull is correct enough for a Vc . Modern resto's are cobbled together from whatever parts can be scrounged from AT gunnery ranges , and those parts are in real bad shape after being a target for modern AT weapons for 20-40 years , so most modern resto's are very unreliable as to model and variant info

[ June 10, 2007, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: nev403 ]

[Markus86]

Wanted to test the new phpbb forum version

If you want, feel free to use.

http://tow.sieber-markus.de/

Regards Markus

[Dr.Jones]

Markus86,

does the php forum sends the activations to new users, i think something is broken, can you look.

br.

Dr.Jones

[Markus86]

I activated your account manually, don't know what isn't working at the moment as it is supposed to.

I deactivated the activation of new users. If you want another structure or other forums just tell me

[Dr.Jones]

Roger.

br.

Dr.Jones

[Dr.Jones]

Ok,

I checked, the reply was in the SPAM. So you can enable again the activation.

br.

Dr.Jones

[wokelly]

Originally posted by nev403:

What was the difference tween the A3 and A4 wokelly? The hulls look identical, the A3 short 75 should work as a Vc too. The A2 had a bit thicker upper front hull armour and different slope then the A3 A4(64mm@47deg in the A2 vs 51mm@56deg in the A3 and MkV) .It must be the A4 version im thinking of that the US didnt use much. I had forgotten that there was an A4

Where do i know your handle from? are you in ww2ol ?

Yeah from WWIIOL, use the same name for just about everything.

As for the hulls, A3 has more hull armor but less slope. The A4 has less hull armor but more slope. Overall the A3 series was a stronger tank because the hull was less prone to overmatching and was able to stop 75mm shells from Pak40s and the 75mm L/48 series guns at ranges of 800-900m where as the A4 and A2 series would be penetrated easily at that range due to overmatching.

In summary the A3 tank is more survivable then the actual sherman fireflies would have been and using their hulls, besides cosmetic differences, would make the sherman firefly much more powerful then it historically was.

[wokelly]

Originally posted by Oudy:

Wokelly

I know it doesn't look like it should. I didn't change any graphics files. I chose the closest sherman body and added the correct gun. The stats are correct, but the graphics aren't. I'll take a look at the M4A2 chassie. If it is closer to the Firefly, I'll use it.

Nev

Thanks for the data. I appreciate the help.

Oudy

Sorry oudy I just reread my post and realized I kinda sounded like a bit of an a$$. I didnt meant to put down your work, but hull you have fit the 17 pounder to is not correct and will not create an accurate Sherman VC or IIC. The problem is its more then just cosmetic issues, the armor values are completely different.

M4A4

Hull Front (Upper) : 51mm @ 34°

Hull Front (Lower) : 51mm @ 45° - 90°

Hull Sides (Upper) : 38mm @ 90°

Hull Sides (Lower) : 38mm @ 90°

Hull Rear : 38mm @ 70° - 90°

Hull Top : 19mm @ 0° - 7°

Hull Bottom : 13mm - 25mm @ 0°

Turret Front : 76mm @ 60°

Turret Mantlet : 89mm @ 90°

Turret Sides : 51mm @ 85°

Turret Rear : 51mm @ 90°

Turret Top : 25mm @ 0°

Sherman 76

Hull Front (Upper) : 64mm @ 43°

Hull Front (Lower) : 51mm - 108mm @ 34° - 90°

Hull Sides (Upper) : 38mm @ 90°

Hull Sides (Lower) : 38mm @ 90°

Hull Rear : 38mm @ 68° - 80°

Hull Top : 19mm @ 0° - 7°

Hull Bottom : 13mm - 25mm @ 0°

Turret Front : 64mm @ 45° - 50°

Turret Mantlet : 89mm @ 90°

Turret Sides : 64mm @ 77° - 90°

Turret Rear : 64mm @ 90°

Turret Top : 25mm @ 0°

You should use the M4A2. The only difference between the british supplied M4A4 and the M4A2 is the fact the A4 is gasoline powered and the A2 is diesel. Speed is the same. Just put the 17 pounder on the M4A2 or the M4A1 and you have both the Sherman VC firefly and Sherman IIC firefly.

[Oudy]

Thanks for the info Wokelly

I'll redo it with the M4A2. US and British tanks aren't my main interest. I've done more research into the eastern front (thanks to Il2). I always appreciate feedback and take criticism well. (though my wife might disagree.)

Oudy

[wokelly]

Well thanks for making it. I never particularly cared for the challenger as the main british tank with the 17 pounder.

As for the info in the screenshot you posted, I believe 600 sherman fireflies were made from scratch, but around 1000+ were modified from existing Shermans armed with 75mms. Sherman Firefly numbers were around 2000 total in WWII.

[Oudy]

Thanks Wokelly

I put the that line in just so I had something in the description. If you would like to write a more complete one I'll include it.

Oudy

[Madmatt]

You guysa might be instrested in reading the latest sticky post by SIO on the topic of modding.

Madmatt

[Oudy]

Thanks Madmatt

That is very good news. You can probably expect to see some of the first mods (Pz.IVF1 and Sherman Firefly) uploaded after the patch. The mission I'm currently working on uses the Pz.IVF1.

Oudy

[wokelly]

Originally posted by Oudy:

Thanks Wokelly

I put the that line in just so I had something in the description. If you would like to write a more complete one I'll include it.

Oudy

Yeah more likely I would submit part of the wiki article.

[nev403]

ya i figured the turret thing was going on(making fireflys from other models by switching turrets)but i hadnt seen it written anywhere. There was a Ic firefly as well ,or a hybrid Ic/IIc used mainly in Italy and was probably the result of them shipping 17pdr turrets to Italy and then installing them on hulls that were already in service or in repair shops in Italy. Italy had a way lower priority for fireflys then NW Europe , by the end of 1944-Early 45 in NW europe there was getting to be 2 fireflys and 2 short75s per Tank Troop(platoon)

[Elmar Bijlsma]

nev403, when modding the Firefly turret, pay extra attention to the rear of the turret. It was enlarged to allow for the recoil of the 17pdr. It also had a stowage bin on the outside turret rear.

[nev403]

im not doing the mod , Oudy is There was a 2nd stowage bin added to the rear of the normal stowage bin on the Vc turret , but Oudy's mod isnt really cosmetic other then the gun barrel , just functional

[SlapHappy]

That's because you can only mix and match existing mesh files from the 3-D models. There is currently no way to add totally new model content into the game, lacking some sort of import/export capability.

[Freeboy]

where are these files.. I looked in the folders and was lost?

[wokelly]

Okay Oudy, here is a brief history for the Sherman Firefly. You can use it if you choose to:

The Sherman Firefly was a regular Sherman tank armed with the powerful British 17 pounder Firefly Gun in the place of the regular 75mm M3 gun, the Sherman Firefly became the most common tank in the British and Commonwealth inventory armed with the 17 pounder gun.

The Sherman Firefly was originally a backup design in case the Challenger Tank, a modified Cromwell tank with a 17 pounder, was a failure. While the Challenger could not be called a failure, it was decided it was easier and more effective to simply add a 17 pounder onto the M4 Sherman Chassis, the main tank in the British and Commonwealth Armies.

The 17 Pounder, which was originally too big for Sherman's Turret, but it was squeezed in by turning the gun on its side and modifying the turret by cutting out the back of the turret and adding a box like structure to make room for the recoil. Since the 17 pounder shells were much bigger then the Sherman 75mm shells, the hull gunner was removed to make room. There were two Sherman variants modified, the Sherman V (M4A4) and the Sherman I (M4A1), which became the Sherman VC and Sherman IC respectively.

By June 1944 there were 342 Sherman Fireflies available for the Normandy Landings, and unlike the Sherman 76 which was available prior to D-Day to US forces, the Fireflies went ashore on the first day. This ended up being a major break for the British and Commonwealth Forces who ended up facing the majority of all German Armor divisions deployed in the Battle of Normandy, and which contained a large number of Panthers. When the Panther was first encounter in Italy Allied intelligence assumed it would be a rare heavy tank like the Tiger, when in fact the Germans were striving to have it replace the Mark 4 Panzer as the main battle tank of their Panzer Divisions. As a result the Allied Amies were unprepared for the large number of Panthers they faced, and the Sherman Firefly became one of the most important tanks in the British Armored Divisions during Normandy. The Sherman Firefly was so important, that often other regular Sherman's were stripped of parts to keep the Firefly in service, and knocked out Fireflies in rear repair shops were given priority to be put back into service. The Sherman Firefly was one of the few tank able to deal with the Panther, Tiger and other German Heavy tanks on roughly equal terms in Normandy and for remainder of the war.

While the Sherman Firefly was the most powerful Allied Tank in Normandy and one of the most powerful for the rest of the war, it had its disadvantages. First off was the fact the gun was turned on its side. Though this allowed the gun to fit into the turret, it reduced the Rate of Fire compared to other Sherman's tanks due to the cramped nature of the turret and the difficulty in loading a gun turned on its side. The Second fault was with the gun. The Sherman Firefly had a very long gun compared with regular Sherman's and a distinctive round muzzle break to go alone with it. The Germans did not take long to realize how much more effectiveness the new long barreled Sherman Firefly was compared to the rest, and standing orders were to eliminate them first then deal with the regular Sherman's. Thirdly, for most of 1944 the Sherman Firefly was without an HE shell, and like the British tankers with their 2 pounder armed tanks in the desert, found themselves unable to effectively deal with dug-in Anti-Tank Guns, which were much more common then German Tanks, especially Panthers and Tigers.

Regardless of its shortcomings, the Sherman Firefly was loved by its crews, and despite the fact it was no more protected then a regular Sherman, crews felt equal to any German tank they may face. The total number of Sherman Firefly's produced was 2,246, over half of the roughly 4000 17 pounder armed tanks in service for the British and served in Her Armed forces for the rest of the war and beyond in many other countries.

[ June 30, 2007, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: wokelly ]

[Oudy]

Thanks Wokelly

Sorry, it took so long to reply, but I was at the beach. I'll use this info for my Firefly mod.

Oudy

[wokelly]

No problem, thanks for using the info. The Sherman Firefly is my favorite tank of WWII. I have always felt the Sherman is one of the most underrated tanks of WWII, and personally I think the Sherman Firefly was a Great tank. It combined the reliability and ruggedness of the Sherman with a gun that was equal if not more powerful then the Panthers main gun.

Anyways I edited a few things because some grammer issues were bugging me and it didnt flow quite right. By the way if anyone sees any errors or facts I got wrong I would like to hear it. I like to know when my facts are incorrect or not.

[ June 29, 2007, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: wokelly ]