Request for new units for the patch/addon: french AT guns

[Brossel]

I know that there already is the 75 mm. But it was a artillery gun used occasionally as a AT gun.

The main french AT guns were the 25mm SA34/SA37 and the 47 mm SA37.

What follows comes from David Lehmann, a specialist in french equipment of May 1940.

In a classical French infantry division there are theoretically up to 61-64x AT guns :

• 12x 25mm SA34/SA37 AT guns in each of the 3 infantry regiments :

--o 2 in each of the 3 infantry battalions

--o 6 in the regimental heavy company

• 12x 25mm SA34/SA37 AT guns in the divisional AT company (CDAC)

• 2x 25mm SA34/SA37 AT guns in the divisional training centre (CID)

• 3-6x 25mm SA34/SA37 AT guns in the reconnaissance battalion (GRDI)

• 8x 47mm Mle1937 or 75mm Mle1897/33 AT guns in the BDAC (AT divisional battery)

Many divisions had no CDAC or CID and many had not the theoretical numbers of AT guns, some had only a dozen. Several divisions had also no 25mm AT guns but used instead the 37mm TR16 infantry gun in AT role.

Canon de 25mm SA Mle1934 (Hotchkiss) and SA-L Mle1937 (Puteaux) L/72

Caliber : 25x194R mm

Crew : 1 NCO + 5 men (+ 1 driver)

Weight : 480kg (SA34 carriage) or 300kg (SA37 carriage, L = light)

Length : 3.71m

Width : 1.05m

Height : 1.10m (at the shield)

Protection : the shield is 7mm thick

Barrel length : 1.80m

Rate of fire : 25 rpm against fixed target and 15 rpm against moving target

Traverse : 60°

Elevation : -5° to +15°

Telescopic sight : 4x (L.711 telescopic sight, with a 3450m range drum, field of view 10.13°, V reticle)

V° : 920 m/s

Practical range : 800m (heavy armored vehicles), 1000m (medium armored vehicles) and 1500m (light armoured vehicles and softskins)

Penetration : 40mm/0° at 500m; 32mm/35° at 200m

Accuracy : at 800m H+L = 80+80 = 160cm

German tests :

The test was carried out 1/8-1941 with a 2,5cm KwK 121(f) by HWA on a 120 kg/mm2 armor plate.

(source : "Kennblätter fremden geräts heft 8a, Munition bis 3,6 cm" Released in Berlin 1941)

100 meters = 47mm /0°

500 meters = 40mm /0°

1000 meters = 30mm /0°

100 meters = 35mm /30°

500 meters = 30mm /30°

1000 meters = 20mm /30°

100 meters = 18mm /45°

500 meters = 16mm /45°

1000 meters = 15mm /45°

The French 25mm AT guns were very modern in 1934. About 4500 of these guns were in service in May 1940. They were especially known as being very discreet, the flash hider used on them made them difficult to spot according to both French and German AARs. They proved to be very accurate guns, and able to destroy all the German tanks up to 800m if the impact angle was good enough. Only the PzIV Ausf.D at long range was tricky to be engaged by the 25mm AT gun in May/June 1940 if not at close range. In the first 500m the penetration efficiency was equal to the penetration of the 3.7cm L/45 Pak36 and at longer range the KE felt slightly more rapidly due to the lightweight projectile. The Germans captured such guns in large numbers in 1940 and used them in secondary roles as coastal defence and in some garrisons. Finland used also about 240 of these AT guns.

There were theoretically 12 of these AT guns in each French infantry regiment in 1940 but several regiments had only 4 or no AT gun at all. For example the 55th infantry B series division at Sedan had no AT guns in its infantry regiments, 12 AT guns in divisional AT company and 4 AT guns in the 4th GRDI, a total of 16 AT guns for the whole division on a large front (26% of the number of the paper). It was also deployed on an over-stretched front whereas a division should defend a 5-7 kilometers wide front. The 37mm TR infantry gun was often still in service even in AT role. The 25mm AT gun was lacking HE shells to neutralize human/soft targets and therefore the 37mm TR infantry gun was still liked since it could fire HE shells. About 220 25mm AT guns were also given to the British Expeditionnary Force (BEF) to increase its firepower, in exchange the British gave the French some Boys AT rifles which were not efficient and had a weaker penetrating power than the Hotchkiss 13.2mm HMG. The two ‘infanterie de l’air’ companies and several reconnaissance groups used some of these AT rifles. Each 25mm AT gun crew had 72 AP/APT shells immediately available and a total of 156 AP/APT shells per AT gun in a French 1940 infantry regiment. In typical infantry or cavalry units the 25mm AT guns were generally towed behind a Mle1937 infantry or cavalry trailer with horses. On the front the Renault UE tractor generally towed them. In motorized infantry regiments the towing vehicle was also often the Renault UE tractor and for long-range movements various halftracks and trucks were used. The AT guns could also be directly transported on a truck or towed on additional "wheels" (train rouleur). In the divisional AT company/squadron of motorized units the official towing vehicle could be the Laffly V15T in cavalry units or the Latil M7 T1 in infantry units. The Unic TU1 was also used for that task.

Canon de 47mm Mle1937 L/53 (SA37 APX)

In german use

Caliber : 47x380R mm

Weight : 1070kg

Length : 4.10m

Width : 1.62m

Height : 1.10m

Barrel length : 2497mm (2350mm rifling)

Rate of fire : 15-20 rpm

Traverse : 68°

Elevation : -13° to +16.50°

Telescopic sight : 4x (field of view 10.13°, + reticle, adjustable drum up to 3500m)

V° : 855 m/s

Practical AT range : 1000m

Penetration :

French tests with Mle1936 APCBC (source : French Ministry of Defence, 24th September 1939)

0 meters = 110mm /0°

100 meters = 106mm /0°

200 meters = 101mm /0°

300 meters = 97mm /0°

400 meters = 93mm /0°

500 meters = 89mm /0°

600 meters = 85mm /0°

700 meters = 82mm /0°

800 meters = 78mm /0°

900 meters = 75mm /0°

1000 meters = 72mm /0°

1100 meters = 68mm /0°

1200 meters = 65mm /0°

1300 meters = 62mm /0°

1400 meters = 59mm /0°

1500 meters = 57mm /0°

1600 meters = 54mm /0°

1700 meters = 51mm /0°

1800 meters = 49mm /0°

1900 meters = 47mm /0°

2000 meters = 45mm /0°

German tests with 4.7cm Pzgr. 178(f) mH (source : Thomas Jentz) :

100 meters = 57mm /30°

500 meters = 50mm /30°

1000 meters = 42mm /30°

1500 meters = 36mm /30°

The French AT gun was the best AT gun on the French battlefield in 1940, after the 8.8cm Flak18 used in AT role and perhaps the best one before the arrival of the 5.0cm Pak38. It exceeded widely the German 3.7cm Pak36 in terms of penetration. The French army had about 1200 of them in service in May 1940, they were depending from the artillery regiments and not all came into service. Initially a BDAC should have included 12 47mm AT guns but due to the lack of guns this number was reduced to 6 or 8. The Citroën-Kégresse P17, Unic P107, Laffly S15T or Laffly W15T generally towed the 47mm Mle1937 AT gun.

An example of report concerning the 47mm Mle1937 AT gun : the French 18th infantry division on the Aisne river on 9-10th June 1940 faced the 10.ID, 26.ID, the SS "Polizei" and elements of the 6.PzD. First they stopped all the German assaults in part thanks to their good supporting artillery and took about 800 German POWs, then they had to pull back because of the collapse of the 2nd infantry division facing two Panzerdivisionen more west. During the retreat, one 47mm SA37 gun destroyed successively 3 moving German tanks at 1500m. Of course that gives not much info in terms of penetration, these tanks could be PzIs as well as PzIVs but the gunsight, accuracy and crew of this gun seem to be rather good ones.

About 823 4.7cm Pak181/182(f) (captured on the front or in factories / repaired / newly built) were used after the campaign of France by the Germans. The Germans produced also a dedicated 4.7cm APCR shell for this gun. But already in May/June 1940 some of the captured guns were immediately used against French tanks, especially the dreaded Renault B1bis. The German reports indicate that 1226 shells were fired with these booty guns furing the battle of France. General Heinz Guderian himself in his memories ("Achtung Panzer !") indicates that he led the fire of a captured French 47mm AT gun against a Renault B1bis.

[ May 28, 2007, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: Brossel ]

[jean-Luc]

Strongly agree with Brosset....

Bought TOW : because some French battle were included, goo opportunities to simulate them at home ...

So, lets's go back to the subject:

25 mmm and 47 mm are missing in the game on the french Side ... this is too bad as these two guns were the "official" AT support weapon in the french army....

75 mm was not the regular AT gun ... this one were used when nothing else was available ... in some desesperate situation to be franck ...75 mm first "vocation" was not in an AT role.

Of course , introduction a the 47 mm apx SA37 in the game will be a terrible challenge for any German tanks ...

Other point: i am not sure the performance of the 47 mm SA35 are Ok ...( B1bis and S35) ...

seems to be very under estimated.

I was also surprised with the ease a pack 35/36 can knock out a french tank (any model).

at a range over 100 m ..

this does not match the reports i have read on that period.

( these sources may not be accurate ... but when you see a Pak35/35 knocking out a B1 at 300 m ..some questionable thought occurs ... )

the solution could be to remove, using the editor, some devices from german tanks and gun in a given battle ...such as pzgrd 40 that were not available in may-june 1940... ( always from the various books i have read)

Last point, if i want to have a realistic situation, i have also to remove/replace the PZ38T ... this one is given a 50 mm front armour ..instead of 25 mm ... ( 47mm sa35 is UNABLE , given the TOW performance table, to get rid of it at 100 m ... This is Wrong.

JL

[Tartari]

The Panzer38 (t) E and F had actually 50 mm front armour but were introduced only in november 1940.

I agree with you for the 25 mm SA 34 and for the 47 mm. The mitrailleuse Hotchkiss lacks too!

[FinnN]

Not quite as important, but what do people think of the French infantryman's uniform? To me it looks more like a Free French one (ie US) rather than 1940 (even given the missing greatcoat). The officer seems right though. I don't know much about this sort of thing though, what do others think?

Have fun

Finn

[jean-Luc]

Agree with you.

Most of the french infantry was wearing teh greatcoat ... looking pretty close to the first world war 'poilu' ...

Some units , motorized infantry, seems to have been dressed in a different shape .

Seems some "dragons portés" or mechanized troops kind of uniforms are represented in TOW ...

or These french are wearing the "light uniform" ("tenues allégées")

i saw some pictures about the 14th ID ( 14 eme divisions d'infanterie).

Picture was showing some French infantry-men "guiding" a column of german prisoners.

These infantry men were wearing quiet the same

uniform as depicted in tow. No greatcot.

they Could have been taken for American people if the Adrian helmet (french helmet) were replaced by an US one.

jl

[SlapHappy]

The numbers for the 47mm and 25mm tank mounted guns check out OK with most of the historical content I could find on the internet.

Problem is, the frontal armor of the pz 38 is over-done for the period, as mentioned. In addition the missing AT guns had longer bores than their tank-mounted counterparts, so they would have been more effective tank-killers. From what I was able to find, the 47L53 was in short supply, but was VERY effective against German armor.

[Drawde79]

A few other things I've noticed with French vehicles/equipment in TOW (most of these are simple data issues and would be easy to change):

- AFAIK, Renault FT-17s never had both a 37mm gun and a co-axial machinegun; they were equipped with either a 37mm or a MG.

- The FT-17 in the game also seems to have rather thick armour, particularly on the turret.

- The 37mm SA-18 gun (on the FT-17,R-35 and H-35 tanks, and the P16 armoured car) had significantly less armour piercing ability than it has in TOW. According to CMBB and CMAK, AP rounds from this gun have a maximum penetration of about 18-20mm (at 100m/0 degrees).

- The Char B1 bis had a hull-mounted MG, as well as a co-axial turret MG, though I think it was fixed (not aimable).

- IMHO, the Hotchkiss H-35 tank ought to be replaced or supplemented by the Hotchkiss H-39, which had a longer-barreled, more powerful 37mm gun (SA-38), and was in service in fairly significant numbers by 1940. (There was a similar Renault tank, the R-39 and R-40, though I'm not sure this was as common). This would require a new model, though (the H-39 had a number of modifications to the engine, vision blocks, etc. as well as a new gun) so probably isn't likely in a patch.

I'm really not sure why the developers decided to model both the R-35 and H-35 (virtually identical in terms of stats/performance) rather than modelling one of them as the later version with the long-barreled 37mm. (Maybe the lack of these tanks is the reason the 37mm SA-18 in the game is overpowered?)

I'd definitely also like to see the 25mm and/or 47mm AT guns - possibly also the Hotchkiss 13mm or 25mm AA guns - but I suspect that French (and Polish) equipment is fairly low on the developer's priorities of things to add/fix.

[SlapHappy]

From an Axis History website:

"In the DLM/DCR 80-90 tanks are only light tanks unlike what was initially planned (only medium/heavy tanks). 80% of these light tanks are armed with the 37mm SA18 L/21 gun and only 20% with the 37mm SA38 L/33 gun. The 37mm SA18 is only adapted to infantry support. A tank armed with the 37mm SA18 gun can actually destroy armored cars, Panzer I and Panzer II tanks at 300-400m but has to go closer than 25-100m to have a chance to destroy a Panzer III or Panzer IV, whereas it can itself be destroyed at 300-400m by them."

That sort of gives the idea of how limited the gun on this tank really was. Although, I must say, I was not impressed by it's performance in TOW in any event. In the Last Chance mission, I based my whole counter-attack around the Somua with the heavier 47mm.

BTW, I'd have to say that Last Chance is my personal favorite battle and I hope to see more of the France '40 stuff in the future.

Also, Drawde79, not to worry. All the ammo characteristics of the game are addressable and we will probably see some movement in that area sooner than later

[Drawde79]

One more minor point I forgot to mention in my original post - the 25mm gun on the Panhard 178 armoured car should be a single-shot (manually loaded) weapon, not automatic like the German 20mm KwK 38 (this explains why the Panhard runs out of ammo so quickly!). I think it was basically the same weapon as the French 25mm AT gun.

The accuracy, as well as rate of fire, of the weapon should probably also be tweaked to bring it in line with similar single-shot weapons (37mm etc.).

[John Kettler]

Outstanding thread regarding a topic on which I know little. First rate technical data and superb pictures!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Eichmann2]

Not more French AT guns - I can't even get by the buggers on the Dunkirk mission! :eek:

[jean-Luc]

Hmmm ...

Just a little more thing about the AMD35 P178...

1) P178 was crewed with 4 people.. not only 3

- 1 leader/gunner (turret)

- 1 gun loader (turred)

- 1 FORWARD driver (forward Hull, main pilot seat)

and.... 1 REVERSE driver ..(backward Hull, secondary reverse pilot seat)

there was TWO pilot seats on this armoured car ... so normaly the backward command is not usefull on this one...

Difficult to model in a game ...i know.

jl

[Silencer]

yup, the pan had a single shot 25mm gun, same as the 25mm atg.

and the char had indeed a coax MG in the turret and a hull MG next to the hull gun.

The 75mm hull gun could only be lowered and raised (char Bis) and the hull MG was fixed in placed.

The aiming of the hull gun (left-right) was done by the driver by moving the tank.

[SlapHappy]

Based on a penetration table I got on-line, the 37L21 is over-modeled by about 5 mm at 100 meters. And about 3 mm @ 500. These numbers ARE based on 30 deg sloped armor, however. I don't know what the encyclopedia numbers are based on.

Actually, the biggest error seems to be that the figures I got on-line are based on APBC ammo, not AP as listed in TOW. The AP ammo as listed on the website is almost useless against armor.

http://www.tarrif.net/cgi/production/all_vehicles_adv.php?op=getvehicles&vehiclesX=14