I'm really trying....

[Joabru]

To like this game but I think I'm losing...

I've been a great fan of the CM series, got em all. The modern ones don't interest me. Strategic Command almost had me but after playing it I found it was just like Clash of Steel (old SSI game). So when I saw this I thought great!

Got the demo with the intention of ordering and downloading while I mucked about with the demo.. But a quick look stopped me in my tracks

I've a few questions from a few days of playing,

Why do my tanks rotate all the time? I've set them behind a hill looking at the bridge, anything crosses and I'll hit em. Problem is they keep wanting to rotate and face the hill once action starts. Why? they cant shoot thru the hill it's daft. Even if they could 'My' order should be above all otherwise you've lost the players trust. I want them to face they way I set.

Not allowing troops into buildings is a BIG realism breaker, just make buildings a fixed type object like a gunwith bulding gfx. allow troops to man it (go inside) an increase defense/armour. Any abstract way you can.

LOS, I don't know what's going on here I'm getting shot up when I think I'm safe. Once again you're breaking players trust. If you don't want to use LOS tool (I think you should, if some players don't want then have as an option) it should be obvious when something is hidden. Hell, have a rating that troop give themselves. I place in a bush and his 'cover' rating is green, I put in open and its red, in grass yellow etc. At least some idea.

Moving around the map is tricky, You got the middle mouse button as a free look, When freelook is on allow the right mouse button to move forward (I tried to define this but it wouldn't let me). Other things like rotate when pointer is in top corners.

My vehicles like to know trees down, why won't they drive on the road? Some waypoint's would be great here.

The game is getting there, atm it feels like a beta with a lot missing. If things get fixed and updated, update your demo too.

I want to give you my money

[Webwing]

I'm not going to answer you questions but just tell you my experience. You have to find out if the game suits you or not. If you like it for what it is and what it is not doesn't bother you then the game is for you.

I did not pre-order the game. Waited. Played the demo. Didn't like it. The worst thing for me was that the controls felt totally awkward and unnatural. Also that mission was way too difficult for me.

I read loads and loads of threads here point out all kinds of faults in the game and bugs and so on. There was this very strange energy going on. Still I had hope!

Some user here made a mod available where you got every unit from the start. I gave it a try and started to enjoy it. After playing a few times the controls started to feel natural, to my great surprise. Then people started to talk about the editor and that did it for me.

I bought the game 3 days ago. I had a problem with the game freezing when I have shadows on. A patch for that is on the way. Meanwhile I'm having a blast with my first mission made with the editor! Totally immersed in the experience.

So far the tanks are reversing and behaving much better than they did in the demo for me.

Anyway maybe this will help you somehow.

I

[K9crump]

I didnt really like the way the demo mission plays out. They made it too difficult, and may have chased off some potential buyers. But, I had already pre-ordered it and I have found that playing the actual game is better then the demo, and I am having alot of fun with it. It just takes getting use to. It is best to have it set to veteran also. As it stands I have only lost one battle, and I probably could have reloaded and tried again, but didnt really like that particular one anyway. I say mess around with the modded demo like webwing did and you will maybe like it...

MIke

[HardRock]

"It should be obvious if something is hidden"

?

See, that's what the past games have done to people..cues on what is hidden..los lines.

If something is shooting you..you're not hidden and you wouldn't know you were hidden since you don't even know whats shooting you. That's actually how it was.

I don't know if the code is accurate..but if it is...it's far more realistic than the games before with their sterile cues of los and hiding markers

It's not hide and seek.

If something is firing at you and you can't see what it is..get the hell out of dodge. Don't keep sitting there saying if I can't see him he shouldn't see me.

You can look for muzzle flashes if you dare stay around but it's best to leave, back out if you're a tank ..and scout whats firing at you out there. It could be tank, an AT, or a howitzer.

[K9crump]

Here is a prime example in reverse. My tiger had spotted a T-34 and engaged it, but the T-34 attempted to move. Well, the Tiger got off the shot before the T-34 was gone from LOS, but the shot still hit home. Wish I could show a video of this, it was neat. Here are the 2 screenshots.

1st one is the hit (puff of black smoke), and second screen shows the t-34 as it reappeared dead.

MIke

[K9crump]

Sorry, here is second screenshot.

[=Goodshot=]

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If something is firing at you and you can't see what it is..get the hell out of dodge. Don't keep sitting there saying if I can't see him he shouldn't see me.

You can look for muzzle flashes if you dare stay around but it's best to leave, back out if you're a tank ..and scout whats firing at you out there. It could be tank, an AT, or a howitzer.

-------------------------------------------------

HardRock has a good point here!!

What I do when I am in setup,I try to use the terrain features to concel my troops and tanks,

also spread your infantry out to reduce arty

casualities. When I start a battle I usually send

2-3 infantry scout to survey the enemy positions,because of that I dont have to many

nasty surprises,also I dont have a problem with LOS I usualy know where the enemy gun positions are, this in turn allows me to plan accordingly.

I love this scouting its part of the fun for me anyway,I am sure on the Eastern Front the Germans where using so called "Forward Based Observers" prior to any engagement,also of course great value was given to Areal Observation.

So I belive anyone using sound military technics

schould get good results on the battlefield with fewer loses,at least I do in this game,thats why

I like it,these technics work with this game engine quiet well.

[ChrisND]

"I can see you, you can see me" is a load of horse hockey. Having been in combat myself, and done more than my share of infantry training ops, AND having read more than my fair share of field manuals, and having taught my fair share of classes (ok you get the point), I can tell you that it is just not true. If it was, there would be no need for camoflauge. It WOULD be true if everyone were standing up and walking around in open fields. Luckily us humans have this very useful survival drive.

In fact, one of the most vital battlefield skills a person can have, other than marksmanship, is the ability to choose a position where they can easily observe the enemy, but not vice versa.

The kicker though, is that you won't really know just how hidden that position is until someone comes along trying to find you. The exception to that, of course, is with prepared defensive positions, as any infantry squad leader worth his rank gets out in front of the position and checks its visibility.

PS I like that this game has no LOS/LOF lines, I think we all got spoiled by CM in those regards. Although in a large battle it might be necessary with so many units. Maybe something the scenario designer can toggle on/off?

Have a nice day.

[ChrisND]

Originally posted by =Goodshot=:

-------------------------------------------------

When I start a battle I usually send

2-3 infantry scout to survey the enemy positions,because of that I dont have to many

nasty surprises,also I dont have a problem with LOS I usualy know where the enemy gun positions are, this in turn allows me to plan accordingly.

I love this scouting its part of the fun for me anyway,I am sure on the Eastern Front the Germans where using so called "Forward Based Observers" prior to any engagement,also of course great value was given to Areal Observation.

This is one the best things that you can do and will reduce your casualties dramatically. Most games really skimp on the pre-battle scouting, which is arguably one of the more important elements to a battle! I think for many, not doing it is a bad habit aquired (sp?) from most game sthat give you ridiculously short game lengths, practically forcing you to charge straight out (Most CM missions, anyone? ).

[Tontoman]

Originally posted by Joabru:

To like this game but I think I'm losing...

LOS, I don't know what's going on here I'm getting shot up when I think I'm safe. Once again you're breaking players trust. If you don't want to use LOS tool (I think you should, if some players don't want then have as an option) it should be obvious when something is hidden. Hell, have a rating that troop give themselves. I place in a bush and his 'cover' rating is green, I put in open and its red, in grass yellow etc. At least some idea....

I want to give you my money

For the LOS issue, think more CM style, even though the graphics and camera here look like a first person shooter game.

In CM the visable trees and stuff were there to make things look nice and show where the cover was.. but they never were actually used to determine LOS or LOF. It was just a table with, you pass through so much cover, your LOS degrades by so much calculations.

I think ToW works the same way EVEN though it looks and has camera angles of a first person shooter (FPS). Unlike a FPS where if you can't see through a bush, you can't see through a bush, bushes and trees in ToW just seem to indicate some cover without actually being there and just degrade LOS instead (same mechanics as CM). Makes sense at it's way cheaping on the CPU usage to do that type of calculating instead of bascially ray tracing all LOS from all units to enemy ones past trees and bushes etc.

So hiding behind a huge bush does not give you total cover as it would in a FPS, it's cover like you would get in CM even though graphically it looks like you're fully hidden.

IMHO a bit of bad design (if they had a choice) as it defeats the purpose of the individiual unit, unit eyelevel camera angle and all the distinct cover (as opposed to CM tiles).

T.

[ChrisND]

Originally posted by Tontoman:

Just for the sake of nit-pickiness, it would give you concealment, not cover. It's only cover if it can physicaly protect from fire (forifications, a hill, etc).

[Chazman]

"This is one the best things that you can do and will reduce your casualties dramatically. Most games really skimp on the pre-battle scouting, which is arguably one of the more important elements to a battle!"

How realistic was it, in the WWII, to send a couple guys, way ahead of the pack, to check things out, unless they had a radio?

Unless they had a radio, how are they going to transmit the info back to the rest of the troops?

[ChrisND]

They go back and tell....?

[Vegeorite]

That's one for the signals wonks. LOL!

But at the distances in the game (especially at the early part of a battle) I'm guessing hand-signals and binoculars would suffice to communicate from hillock-top to rear.

Comm's is a moot point, though. Radios... hmmm.

[dizee]

Originally posted by Chazman:

"This is one the best things that you can do and will reduce your casualties dramatically. Most games really skimp on the pre-battle scouting, which is arguably one of the more important elements to a battle!"

How realistic was it, in the WWII, to send a couple guys, way ahead of the pack, to check things out, unless they had a radio?

Unless they had a radio, how are they going to transmit the info back to the rest of the troops?

it was a common thing for tank commanders to leave their tank, and scout ahead of their own, when they where caught in a tricky sitiuation.

[Destraex]

thats right, hand signals do just fine or a return to commander to report back is the usual scenario when no more sophisticated devices are around.

They are only 2km maps.

The game abstracts this sort of info into realtime for you from your scouts as "god commander looking down on your subjects" so I can see what chazman is saying.

As also said above though it was not uncommon for commanders to scout with a few hand picked men also.

[Directive#21]

Chazman said:

How realistic was it, in the WWII, to send a couple guys, way ahead of the pack, to check things out, unless they had a radio?

Unless they had a radio, how are they going to transmit the info back to the rest of the troops?

My great grandfather scouted confederate positions himself, alone, on horseback. He considered it so critical to the success of his artillery battery, that despite being a Captain he wouldn't trust anyone else to do it.

There are some great accounts of his scouting exploits during the battle of Chanslersville.

Scouting was no less important in WW2. I love this part of the game as well.

In one mission I sent a scout forward to locate the enemy AT batteries. 2 T-60 tanks passed within 10 meters of him only to have him get killed later by the following infantry. Very exciting!

-Zach

[=Goodshot=]

-------------------------------------------------

"This is one the best things that you can do and will reduce your casualties dramatically. Most games really skimp on the pre-battle scouting, which is arguably one of the more important elements to a battle!"

How realistic was it, in the WWII, to send a couple guys, way ahead of the pack, to check things out, unless they had a radio?

Unless they had a radio, how are they going to transmit the info back to the rest of the troops?

-------------------------------------------------

You answerd this one yourself the WW2 scouting parties used powerfull optical aids and radio transmitters to relay information to there

respective headquartes. The russians even went further,they would dispatch commandos at night

to capture sleeping german guards to be interogadet at the russians bases,I would imagine that the captives where rather cooperative!!

[Rak]

Originally posted by Tontoman:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joabru:

To like this game but I think I'm losing...

LOS, I don't know what's going on here I'm getting shot up when I think I'm safe. Once again you're breaking players trust. If you don't want to use LOS tool (I think you should, if some players don't want then have as an option) it should be obvious when something is hidden. Hell, have a rating that troop give themselves. I place in a bush and his 'cover' rating is green, I put in open and its red, in grass yellow etc. At least some idea....

I want to give you my money

For the LOS issue, think more CM style, even though the graphics and camera here look like a first person shooter game.

In CM the visable trees and stuff were there to make things look nice and show where the cover was.. but they never were actually used to determine LOS or LOF. It was just a table with, you pass through so much cover, your LOS degrades by so much calculations.

I think ToW works the same way EVEN though it looks and has camera angles of a first person shooter (FPS). Unlike a FPS where if you can't see through a bush, you can't see through a bush, bushes and trees in ToW just seem to indicate some cover without actually being there and just degrade LOS instead (same mechanics as CM). Makes sense at it's way cheaping on the CPU usage to do that type of calculating instead of bascially ray tracing all LOS from all units to enemy ones past trees and bushes etc.

So hiding behind a huge bush does not give you total cover as it would in a FPS, it's cover like you would get in CM even though graphically it looks like you're fully hidden.

IMHO a bit of bad design (if they had a choice) as it defeats the purpose of the individiual unit, unit eyelevel camera angle and all the distinct cover (as opposed to CM tiles).

T. </font>

[Tontoman]

Originally posted by Normal Dude:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tontoman:

Just for the sake of nit-pickiness, it would give you concealment, not cover. It's only cover if it can physicaly protect from fire (forifications, a hill, etc). </font>

Hehe, I know I know, just lazy as most of the people don't bother to differentiate between the two and 'cover' is shorter to type

T.

[Tontoman]

Originally posted by Normal Dude:

They go back and tell....?

Just for the sake if nit-pickiness, how is it done instantly (as chazman already pointed out)? It's not like we see a grunt run back to the radio man (where are the radio men anyway) tell him the report, the radio man transmitting it, all the receiving radios call in their men to pass the news and then these guys going back to the field and engaging the new targets . I think most of us have read WWII battle accounts and know that getting orders out was hard enough, individual spotting like that was much more rare. Buddy to 20m away buddy, or inf to tank using the tank comms maybe, but not squad to squad for picking out individual targets. So he's got a point

But it's the same problem CM had, you the player are god in the sky as anything your trooper sees, you see, and thus instantly all your troopers see since you order them. Remember all the jeep zerging with people sacrificing jeeps to charge the line to insta-scout the enemy. They talked about that in a new CM engine where if one unit spotted it, you could targeted it with another unit but it's hit % would be low until it aquired the target itself. The fact that one unit spotted it didn't automatically apply to all units.

T.

[ May 02, 2007, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: Tontoman ]

[=Goodshot=]

NormalDude says

-------------------------------------------------

PS I like that this game has no LOS/LOF lines, I think we all got spoiled by CM in those regards. Although in a large battle it might be necessary with so many units. Maybe something the scenario designer can toggle on/off?

-------------------------------------------------

I totaly agree I also dont want any more palying aids,all these,pointers,healthbars,

arrow indicators,targetboxes,enemy highlighters,

LOS and LOF indicators,waypoint indicators would totaly ruin my Gaming atmosphere.I purchased this game for its ability to simulate WW2 ground

warfare,in a visually appealing 3d environment wich I think it does quiet well!

I dont want the game to become "Battlestation

Midway" or "Command & Conquer". For that matter

I didn't notice that the game had a brocken Camera or LOS system,what else did I miss!!

[=Goodshot=]

Chazman says

-------------------------------------------------

How realistic was it, in the WWII, to send a couple guys, way ahead of the pack, to check things out, unless they had a radio?

-------------------------------------------------

General Custer didn't scout either the outcome

is history.Do you realy believe any prudent commander would rush his troops blindly over any

hill,peoples lives are at stake!How would you

like to serve under a commander that order you

and your squadmates to simply charge of into the unknown!!

[Tofke]

=GOODSHOT= : ""I dont want the game to become "Battlestation

Midway" or "Command & Conquer"."

dont forget the disappointing "pacific storm", I had put much hope at it... it's necessary to forget.

Tofke

BeerKiller

[Son of Hamchuck]

Originally posted by Chazman:

Unless they had a radio, how are they going to transmit the info back to the rest of the troops?

Why standard issue carrier pigeons, of course.