The finer points of strategy?

[Gollum]

I am new to CMBO. I played a scenario, A Walk In Paris just now... I know this is a serious war game, but I felt like it was easy to win it with a video game mentality. I sent my tanks down the road to clear the areas, and then the infantry would be sent in mass bulk down the road to run into buildings. I admit I lost all my tanks, but I couldnt see the subtle nature of the strategy... it was basically move and fire, and I won the scenario. Where do I pick up the finer points of strategy, when the orders menu is basically Move, Fire? Is there really a big difference between a sharpshooter, a bazooka, or rifle infantry? Can Sherman tanks do anything special Im not aware of, like flamethrowers? Or is the strategy simply in knowing what formations to use, and the timing of things?

Gollum

[Gollum]

Oh also, every time I fired a tank, it asked me if I wanted to use the main gun. Is there any reason not to use the main gun?

Also, is it possible for infantry to attack an enemy tank and win?

How important is it for a HQ to stay with the platoon?

Does the sneak command have any real value in a full scale battle? How can you sneak past entire platoons, is this like Splinter Cell, heheh!

This game confuses me!

Gollum

[tar]

Try a different scenario, maybe? Or a human opponent?

Some of the scenarios are not particularly well-suited for play against the AI. If you get one of those, then you can often win against the computer even if you don't apply proper tactics.

In particular, I would expect that urban fighting is one area where certain limitations of the game engine make it less realistic than in some other settings. In particular, the so-called "borg spotting" problem (where a unit sighted by any one of your units is instantly known to all others) really imipacts things. In real life, one of the problems in urban fighting is that it is hard to keep good command and control, because the fight breaks down into a lot of small individual firefights, with it being rather hard to figure out what is going on. In CMBO, you get a much clearer picture than the real commanders would have.

In addition, with the close-in firefights and battles that are often seen, the brilliant sharpshooting ability of your own forces to fire small arms into the same building as friendly troops without hitting them is a bit amazing. One of the real-life concerns of commanders is making sure that lines of fire are free of friendlies. The current CM series does not reflect that. Perhaps the engine rewrite will take that into consideration. Friendly fire is only a problem at night, and with heavy weapons like artillery (and to a lesser extent) large caliber direct fire guns.

Finally, I think that the ability of troops to hide is a bit understated, particularly when they are in buildings. I think it would be much easier to remain largely out of sight unless there were enemy forces in the same building. Again, this is an area where the game doesn't seem to reflect my imagination of what things should be like.

Summary: Try a couple more scenarios, or try setting up some Quick Battles. If you do Quick Battles, let the AI defend. It does a better job of that than attacking, and using a Meeting Engagement with video game tactics just turns it into an AI attack, but with worse odds.

As for special abilities. Yes, each unit is differentiated in some way. Sherman tanks did not really mount flamethrowers on the standard model. I don't recall offhand if any of the US flame-throwing tanks were deployed to Europe, although they were used in the Pacific. The British had a series of Crocodile tanks with flamethrowers.

But even apart from such exotic weapons, there are different gun types, ammunition types and other characteristics such as the ground pressure of vehicles, speed of turret traversal, etc. which all make a difference in the game.

Try a few more times and tell us what you think.

[tar]

More questions while I was writing an answer.

Oh also, every time I fired a tank, it asked me if I wanted to use the main gun. Is there any reason not to use the main gun?

Also, is it possible for infantry to attack an enemy tank and win?

How important is it for a HQ to stay with the platoon?

Does the sneak command have any real value in a full scale battle? How can you sneak past entire platoons, is this like Splinter Cell, heheh!

You might want to conserve HE ammunition for other, more important targets that may come up. For some tanks, like the Sherman, which have quite large amounts of HE ammo, it isn't nearly as critical as for other tanks that carried fewer rounds.

Infantry can attack enemy tanks and win. It just isn't easy unless they have some specialized anti-tank weapons such as bazookas or one of the German equivalents like the Panzerfaust or Panzerschreck. In a pinch, grenades alone can do the job, but (correctly, IMHO) it isn't easy, and tanks with their machine guns can often massacre attacking infantry in the open. (Part of the problem is that the dead-zone around the tank isn't modeled in CMBO -- I think it was added for CMBB, at least to some extent. The blindness of a buttoned-up tank is largely negated by borg spotting). This is an example where proper tactics can pay off big-time, though. If you can entice a tank to fight infantry in infantry-friendly terrain, especially if the infantry has things like demolition charges, then the tank should be defeated.

It is really important for the HQ to stay within command range if you want to have your infantry work well and response quickly to your orders. Again, this is an area where humans tend to do a better job than the computer.

As for sneaking, it has its uses. In particular, in CMBO it is good for moving through cover when you would like to stop and engage the enemy if they discover you. Unlike CMBB, there is no "Move to Contact" order in CMBO, so you need to use sneak as a bit of a substitute. Whether you can actually sneak past the enemy depends on distance, the cover, the lighting conditions, the experience of your troops, and whether your HQ gives you a stealth bonus.

[Gollum]

So if tanks dont fire their main gun, does it automatically fire something designated as a secondary weapon? How do you select which weapon to use if there are multiple weapons?

In a related question, i had an infantry unit pinned down right next to a German Panzer. How do I tell it to use grenades or demolition charges specifically? Selecting weapons doesnt seem to be an option with this game...

Thanks,

Gollum

[easytarget]

I sent an e-mail your way suggesting we set up a battle and talk it through as it develops.

Seemed like an easier way to work through your questions with a live example than to try and hash it out in the forum indirectly.

Let me know if you're interested.

[flamingknives]

So if tanks dont fire their main gun, does it automatically fire something designated as a secondary weapon? How do you select which weapon to use if there are multiple weapons?

If you hit ENTER when you have a unit selected, it will give you a data screen, which will provide you with information such as speed, weapons and weapon capability.

For tanks, this will show you what it has in the way of machine guns (MGs), where they are located and how much ammunition they have. For example, a Sherman has a co-axial MG (mounted alongside the main gun) and a bow MG. If you choose not to use main gun, the tank will use MGs.

Tanks without MGs do not give you the option to target without the main gun (as there would be no point)

Beyond choosing whether or not to use the main gun, you have no say in the matter.

In a related question, i had an infantry unit pinned down right next to a German Panzer. How do I tell it to use grenades or demolition charges specifically? Selecting weapons doesnt seem to be an option with this game...

Nope, it isn't. 'special weapon' will be used if the 'Tac AI' chooses to. The Tac AI is essentially simulating the fact that your men have little minds of their own, and are not robots. In CMBB, you can use demo charges to target an area, but not an enemy unit.

In addition pinned units are far less likely to use special weapons and you need to be within 30m to use demo charges.

[Howard R]

"In a related question, i had an infantry unit pinned down right next to a German Panzer. How do I tell it to use grenades or demolition charges specifically? Selecting weapons doesnt seem to be an option with this game... "

Please remeber that you aren't selecting the weapon, the guys fearing for their lives, cowering under the fire of an ENEMY TANK, with no armor other than their summer uniform are.

Also, "pinned" means that they are taking fire, and mostly unable to move without being killed.

[dugfromthearth]

you also need to decide what winning is for you.

the Americans had the numbers to win the war. They basically just needed to trade lives for ground. They had more soldiers then the Germans.

but the goal of a commander should be winning at minimal cost, not butching their entire armor force while taking an objective.

[JasonC]

"if tanks dont fire their main gun, does it automatically fire something"

Most tanks have machineguns in addition to their cannon. The question is to ask you whether you want to use the cannon - if you say "no" it will use the machineguns. They are useful against infantry in the open. In CMBB, even infantry in moderate cover if the range is close enough. HE shells are best for enemy guns, men in buildings, trenches (CMBB), or in heavy woods or pines. Some tanks (like US Shermans) have tons of HE ammo and can afford to fire it at everything. Others have only a dozen rounds of HE or so.

Tanks with extra MGs in the bow will fire those at infantry targets close enough to the front of the tank, if not "hull down", without any direction from you. (There are some AFVs - like the Hetzer - with "remote flexible" MGs meant only for close range self-defense that also fire this way, only close and without your direction).

When the hatch is open, tanks that have AA MGs on the roof (most US types have a 50 cal there) will fire them at the target you picked, in addition to your weapon choice. Your in-game choice governs the use of the coaxial MG, sighting alongside the barrel of the main gun, or use of the gun. Since those point the same way and have the same gunner, it is one or the other.

"I had an infantry unit pinned down right next to a German Panzer. How do I tell it to use grenades or demolition charges"

Pinned, they generally won't. If not pinned, they will use such weapons if they have them available and there is a target in range they can hurt with them. With demo charges (and grenade bundles, which are just weak DCs in effect), in CMBB anyway, you can also force them to use DCs by chosing "area fire" at a location rather than a unit within 30m. There will be text on the screen, "area fire - use explosives" if this applies. Also in CMBB, you can order them to charge a tank by selecting it as a waypoint with "assault" or "advance", then saying "yes" to "follow vehicle?" But this is very dangerous and usually gets them killed. Infantry attacks on tanks are best made from cover, within 25m, and unpinned. Which usually means from hiding or by a second unit while the tank goes after the first.

As for your description of your first fight, it is a common enough new player thing to do, which I call "mindless mashing of like on like" - lol. By that I mean, when you see the enemy send an infantry platoon into woods A or building B, you send an infantry platoon to the same place to duke it out with them. If you are really clever, maybe even two. When you see an enemy tank on a certain road, you send a tank down that road and watch them duke it out, and one wins.

Basically you are matching deployments with the other side. It tends to "exchange off" pieces. It would be like in chess, taking anything any of your pieces can reach without thinking about anything deeper. It tends to clear the board and simplify things, and makes for satisfying, loud turns. Not many of them, but loud - lol. If you have enough forces this can win, though it can be expensive. Sometimes it can overload a small part of the enemy defense and wind up looking downright clever.

The key tactical idea in a game like CM is, instead, to look for the asymmetric match ups that you can win outright without loss. You want the "clean kills", that each unit type is capable of. That gets the most of each and keeps them alive. Then you try to string those together to chew through the whole enemy force, or to disarticulate his position and force him back to survive.

For example, a tank at medium range can kill infantry with impunity. Just button up and toss HE at them from half way across the map, and they either break the line of sight by shifting position, or you just kill them. A gun can kill your tank, in turn, if it fires from hiding and gets the first hit. A mortar can drop shells on a gun from out of sight and so without reply, if an HQ unit spots for the mortar.

If there is a ton of infantry in a particular body of woods, you don't have to send in a ton of your own infantry and let them exchange off (at best, that is if you make it inside with them instead of getting killed in the open before). Instead tell a forward observor to fire 105mm or 155mm artillery into the woods, and send in your infantry only after the heavy shells. The arty will break the defenders, and your infantry will face them while they are still broken, and kill or capture most of them. The rest will run away and never rally.

Good CM players look for these combined arms match ups, and try to avoid giving chances at them to their opponent. When they do use "like on like" tactics, they try to do it in favorable conditions - many tanks against one, or more infantry from two directions against fewer guys, or from better terrain against more open ground, or infantry with SMGs against rifles in close.

You won't learn all the tricks involved fighting the computer, because it isn't great at finding such match ups itself. (It tends to go for the "total dose" and just throw some of everything, hoping something "sticks"). You can find some of these tricks certainly, and you will beat it more decisively if you use such tactics than if you don't. But against good humans they are necessary, because they won't refrain from using them on you.

"Is there really a big difference between a sharpshooter, a bazooka, or rifle infantry?"

Yes. Rifle infantry hurts other infantry, does it best at close to medium range. A sharpshooter can't do much to a whole cloud of infantry units, but it can pin a key weapon team at the right time. It can also sometimes hit an exposed tank commander, or pin a small HQ and so make a whole platoon less effective. A bazooka won't do much of anything to infantry, but can kill a tank from about 100 yards - though against thick beasts it may need a side or rear shot.

"Can Sherman tanks do anything special Im not aware of, like flamethrowers?"

No, ordinary (US) Shermans toss HE at guns or infantry in cover, shoot MGs at anything on foot, and shoot armor piercing at tanks. But no flame lol. There are flame vehicles in the game - the Sherman Croc, the Wasp, German flame Hetzers and halftracks. They have very short range but can be nasty (particularly the zippy little wasp, in my experience, since it is cheap enough to risk and hard to hit).

I hope this helps.

[ November 14, 2003, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[Code Talker]

This is a great link with all kinds of CMBO info.

http://www.chema-cagi.com/combatmission/docs/TIPSRever/Help%20and%20Tips/CMBO%20Strategy%20Guide.html