Defensive Tactics Mission. WTFMATE

[gunnersman]

Originally posted by jiggles:

I mean for sure if you put your AT guns out in the open in CM they'd get toasted. But in CM you'd also have the option to:

If you have played an offensive mission yet where the enemy has ATGs in the open, your units will not spot them until the enemy ATGs open fire.

- tell them to hold fire, which they'd do (in ToW "hold fire" seems to have the sole purpose of wearing out my mouse button; as far as I can tell there's no in-game consequence).

Not sure what your saying here. But, the only problem I have ever had with the "hold fire" button is forgetting I told my units to hold fire and wondering why they aren't shooting when the enemy is right on top of them.

- tell them to hide, which would lower their visibility. Not here, it seems. Prance about in big pink neon outfits with "ooo... shoot me" written on the back seems to be the default.

The ATGs are suppose to be hidden by default. But for some reason the training map spots them. Not much to say about that at this time.

In CM you can also judge the visibility of the guns when you place them. Not in ToW, there's very little useful information presented by the engine about that.

When you click on your unit and then take your mouse cursor and put it over the area of the 3D map you want to range, a range counter tells you the range in the upper right corner of the minimap The minimap is in the lower left corner of your screen.

And to add to that, the unit screen shows a bar at the bottom as well showing penetration ranges of that particular unit. A sliding bar (for lack of a better term) moves in conjunction with the range finder giving you the penetration value of that particular gun at that particular range.

[ April 21, 2007, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: gunnersman ]

[jiggles]

Originally posted by gunnersman:

If you have played an offensive mission yet where the enemy has ATGs in the open, your units will not spot them until the enemy ATGs open fire.

Yep.

The ATGs are suppose to be hidden by default. But for some reason the training map spots them. Not much to say about that at this time.

I think that's my point. It's either a bug or a cheat, either way as a "feature" of the demo it's tantamount to a speling misteak in the advert.

Anyway, I got past the first wave (using tactics which then failed the next three times I tried them, so I'm presuming I was lucky), and in the second wave I got attacked by tanks I'd destroyed in the first wave (I think).

[Coy Sgt. Major]

After having played this mission a couple of times I don't think winning as the Russian is the point. The default defensive position is not the best, not being able to emplace the AT guns is unfortunate and you are at a disadvantage number-wise.

The APCR rounds for the AT guns do work. I knocked out the PZIII's early on my second go at this, on the first I let the battle run it's course with little input just to see what would happen, you men were correct the Kraut's very accurate at tank gunnery. The ATR's do disable the PzII's , they were not too happy to attack the trench without the PzIII's untill the ATR's were gone or suppressed.

The Russian's lose anyway, it sucks but there it is. The mission briefing is quite specific, it doesn't say knock out the tanks or kill the enemy infantry it says in effect fight and hold the position, you die in the process, but War is all hell as Gen Sherman says.

I am a long time ASL player. If the setup was the same I think I would have a decent chance as the Russian playing this mission as an ASL scenario. The rate-of-fire and armour penetration of the APCR rounds of the 45L ATGs would take care of those Panzers pretty quick. Two sections of German infantry against a dug in Russian squad supported by two AT guns and two ATRs would be a tough nut to crack without armour support. But this ain't ASL.

No, its a brand new computer war game we all have little experience with. The modding community hasn't had a crack at this one yet. So fight this mission as best you can, learn a thing or two about the controls and how the game works and carry on.

Sgt Major. Out.

[Hensworth]

I stubbornly persisted until I finally beat the scenario. I did it by saving every time I killed another PzIII (= gun kill) and reloading every time I lost an ATG. Once the PzIIIs are dead the rest is a doddle. Same for the second part, save and reload to get favorable hits on the tanks.

All the advice given here is tosh. You cannot beat this scenario in a single go no matter what you do.

After finishing the training scenarios (the LOS and LOF one was particularly enlightening - what is that all about ?) I started on the Polish campaign.

I wanted to take great pains to place my guns because I knew it would be key. But where in relation to a brush or tree graphic do you have to put a gun for it to work in your favour ? I noticed that by putting my guns in cover, I was also limiting their ability to see out. I only tried the scenario once and there was too much chaos to ascertain whether my guns were shooting at the tanks more than vice versa.

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Moon:

From what you describe it sounds like gun crews would only ever abandon their guns from air or artillery strikes.

that ios nopt what I sdaid.

those are most typical situations in which they would.

there are other instances, too.

however, guns in WW II were typically not abandoned prior to a battle because that would make them less noticed by enemy tanks. Camoflage and a simple hide/hold fire command was the usual way to go about this "how not to be seen" business back in WW II the way I see it.

I doubt that. Not if they are in the middle of an empty grass field, there is a bunch of tanks rolling on, and a neat trench nearby to hop into

Martin

and I doubt that in suich a weird WW II situation leaving the guns open like that would spare them from the enemy's fire. In RealLife, the enemy wouldnt know that the enemy "player" had relocated the crew to a neabry trench, AND / OR would blast the sh*t out of those guns out in the open anyhow. Unlike in ToW, wehre, as you conceded, they are unwilling to engage the guns in such a setup.

Since you are using that RealLife - game difference/deficiency ("feature", if you want *g*) of the game to your advantage (for increased survivability of your forces), such a tactic is gamey as per general opinion on what constitutes "gameyness".

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Elmar Bijlsma:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

how does the dutch army execute ambushes and/or keep the element of surprise?

By sneaking a look every now and then to see where the enemy is. Otherwise you are just guarding a 1.5m deep hole. </font>

[seppDieter]

oh yes we all know how brave the dutch fought in 1914 and 1939...

its a game flaw when the AI decides not to destroy abandoned equipment, in WWII it was the standard procedure to destroy any abandoned/broke/damaged equipment (friendly or enemy) that could be used by the enemy. especially an AT gun pointed at you with enemy soldiers nearby!

[InvaderCanuck]

Originally posted by Sgt_Kelly:

I stubbornly persisted until I finally beat the scenario. I did it by saving every time I killed another PzIII (= gun kill) and reloading every time I lost an ATG. Once the PzIIIs are dead the rest is a doddle. Same for the second part, save and reload to get favorable hits on the tanks.

All the advice given here is tosh. You cannot beat this scenario in a single go no matter what you do.

After finishing the training scenarios (the LOS and LOF one was particularly enlightening - what is that all about ?) I started on the Polish campaign.

I wanted to take great pains to place my guns because I knew it would be key. But where in relation to a brush or tree graphic do you have to put a gun for it to work in your favour ? I noticed that by putting my guns in cover, I was also limiting their ability to see out. I only tried the scenario once and there was too much chaos to ascertain whether my guns were shooting at the tanks more than vice versa.

I ran through the polish campaign as well.

My first two attempts resulted in defeat as I was overwhelmed by the onslaught.

On my third attempt I traded in two of the Bofors for one 75 MM gun.

I put those guns in what I can only describe as a "hull down" like position.

I won almost flawlessly.

8 infantry casualties.

[Hammer]

Originally posted by Madmatt:

Maybe we ratcheted up the difficulty on that one just a wee bit much? We wanted it to be challenging though because its an important concept to drive home... We can always tweak it for the future though if overall consensus seems to indicate thats its too unbalanced.

Madmatt

Why not just add a disclaimer to the end of the mission. "bla bla bla you probably cant beat this mission bla bla life is hard bla bla bla, go to the next lesson"

[Pascal DI FOLCO]

Like InvaderCanuck, I had a weird experience with Polish Bofors vs 75mm. I kept both types of guns, and as usual the Bofors, though hidden in low trees/bush, ordered to hold fire, were killed by the dreaded LaserPanzer in a matter of seconds. The whole squad in the trench was annihilated rapidly also (prone, hold fire, but they don't care what the orders are..).

... but the 75 mm Guns (that I put behind) weren't killed,and even managed to smoke a couple Panzers, then peltered the advancing infantry, even pushing the gun forward to do it, and those guns just seemed indestructible !

I quitted at that time, as it was becoming ridiculous, but sure there are weird things here...

[JagdAlex]

Wow I started the tutorial and playing the game last night. And when I tried this one I was WTF. Am I really that bad!? HEHEH I am happy to see that I was not the only one who got his ass owned by the German on this one! Once your 2 AT crews get killed...it's GG. All the other soldiers have 0 gunery skill except for the commander...you could throw rocks at the Panzers it would probably do more damage. I did managed to kill most of the tanks but a couple broke through...I was desperatly waiting for some reinforcements to give the final blow...which never came! I will move one since this tutorial seems obviously broken with their crack shot PZ3 gunners! :S

[Shigawire]

I ditto everything that's been said so far.

I regret having paid money for this, and I'll be more reserved in future enterprises of 1C/BF.

Hopefully they'll patch it up - because it desperately needs some. It's quite unbalanced - at least in this one training mission.

As for the rest.. it may be better than this one absurd "training" mission, but I'd patch it all nonetheless.

Especially the absence of a Hide ability. Adding this may be considered a "new feature", but really is so crucial that I'd sincerely call it "patching."

Though this is an entirely different game, entirely different developer, from Combat Mission, I'd like more of the kind of controls we have in CM. That includes the ambush mode (ambush in an angle), hide ability etc. It's not like this game is displaying an entirely different war. It's still WW2 right?

[Panzermeister]

I just downloaded the demo after some time of drooling over this game and that Defensive Tactics mission put me off COMPLETELY. The Panzers take each gun out in 1-2 shots. It's really a horrible piece of advice you're getting in the beginning of the scenario, so that thing about abandoning the guns to keep them from getting knocked out... Well I just see it as an emergency solution to a poor design (be it game mechanics or scenario, doesn't matter).

I haven't played any real missions but if the AT-guns could be placed in cover (bushes or whatever) to make them more difficult to spot (if that is possible), it would be better. I tried putting one of the guns among the trees on the right side of the setup zone and ordered them to hold fire as soon as the mission started, but they took fire from the panzers a couple of seconds later. This is just not right.

Maybe this particular mission is worse than the others in general. I don't know. And I really don't feel like finding out.

I am giving this piece of advice: The demo should make you WANT to play more. Now, I feel the opposite. Get it fixed.

[slbm]

Well, so far I've only completed the Polish campaign and briefly looked on the first missons of Germany and France. The Polish campaign is, regrettably, in many aspects similar to that training mission. You get increasingly frustrated about tanks knocking out every AT gun before they get in effective range - no matter if the gun stands in clear field, behind a bush or in the prepared emplacement. After some time I realized, that I should consider ATGs useless and play with tanks only. Which is btw very unrealistic if we are talking about the defence of Poland... The problem with those missions, besides ATGs, is playing against crushingly superior forces - I mean numbers, not quality. It therefore takes a lot of save-and-loading before you manage to complete a mission and - in my opinion - makes the game much less pleasant to play. In general I think, that the game is good, but requires some key improvements. The most important are: mission "philosophy" (shifted towards more balanced forces like in Close Combat) and reworked spotting abilities of tank crews (I mean: significantly decreased - problem are not only ATGs but also infantry, which can't hide, even in waist high grass 100 m behind the tank).

Adam

[MajorPrivate]

I cant believe they have not changed that scenario yet. After it was universally afreed it was damn hard to have a chance at winning it.

[Ufiak]

I was loosing my AT guns crew, till I find how to use soldiers with AT rifles :]

If the range is not too big, skilled soldier with AT rifle is able to destroy gun and with this, German tanks are useless then- no other weapon, so the mission is easy then

Also, as it was mentioned few times ago, it's very good to take a look at the troops before a fight and assign the best shooters to guns etc.

After that- I start liking the defensive missions :]