franz Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 As a grognard, I hate aspects of games that are not historically accurate. So do we get swastikas or has history yet again been drastically altered and toned down to appease the left wing and the more politically correct amongst us ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeatEtr Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 If not, I'm sure it will be one of the first things to be modded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Haven't seen a single screenshot where a swastika looked like it would belong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEYER_1944 Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 The removal of swastika's in 1C's other big title : il-2 Sturmovik was due to strict Nazi symbolism laws in Germany (may be other nations too)... As mentioned above, im sure if they arent in they can easily be modded in... Silent Hunter and heaps of other games all did this... I agree also that realism should be shown and not hidden from the public eye. If games are a representation of a certain period/conflict then things shouldnt be dumbed-down (so-to-speak). History should be told in all its gory reality to basically scare us into never repeating the bad points... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-street Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 it seems in all the WWII footage you see you don't really see a whole lot of Swastika's on the general troops though, maybe the SS divisions (since they where directly under the nazi party's control).. hopefully, even if it is modded, its not done just for the sake of doing it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajj1912 Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Early to mid Eastern front CAS you would definitely see swastikas on armor, or ..... I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajj1912 Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Especially if Stuka's are around???? I thought armor wore huge swastika flags to prevent fraticide. Wouldn't want to take anything away from the Blitzkrieg would we? How is the Junkers modeled anywayz? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajj1912 Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Ahh, here we go. Swastika flags were the [only] ones used to identify armour and were also painted on the front deck of warships. See also Symbole und Zeremoniell in deutschen Streitkräften, Militärgeschichtliches Forschungsamt, p. 180, ill. 85 So why wouldn't you fight with one wrapped around your armor if the Luftwaffe was blowing the screscraw out of everything early in the war? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFF Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Originally posted by MEYER_1944: The removal of swastika's in 1C's other big title : il-2 Sturmovik was due to strict Nazi symbolism laws in Germany (may be other nations too)...Correction - the swastikas in IL-2 are disabled by default but can be easily enabled via a number of third-party programs, such as IL2 MAT Manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajj1912 Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 p. 136: German forces in Serbia (April 1941): Swastika flag on tank for identification by aircraft http://www.smev.de/flags/images/21-136b.jpg Man, I never realized exactly how much Serbia has been through. Let us wish for peace. The A.J.ster P.S. Hope I proved my point RMC, Early Panzers had swastika flags on decks and turrets and that is a historical fact. Whether you choose to impement the graphic where it is legal to do so (localization) is your choice. I am not out to hurt anyone's feelings, but I believe the hypersensitive will always be offended. Tell the truth the way it is, now that is a good motto!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajj1912 Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Again, http://germandressdaggers.com/Panzer%20can%20flag%201.jpg Haven't seen a single screenshot where a swastika looked like it would belong.????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindyCity Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Swastika ……………..lol I was wondering when this one would show up. How about show us where the swastika would be historically accurate on German uniform or the vehicle. 1) small emblem on helmet 2) Recon flag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy_Davis_Jnr Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Some pics http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-uniforms/german-ww2.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 I said screenshot, not photo. In terms of gameplay swastikas are absolutley superfluous. There is no chance that friendly air will hit your own troops. No recognition markings are required. I hardly think it is worth the developer's time to remodel the tanks to add a flag draped over the back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy_Davis_Jnr Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 wasnt responding to your post champ! The first question was: As a grognard, I hate aspects of games that are not historically accurate. So do we get swastikas or has history yet again been drastically altered and toned down to appease the left wing and the more politically correct amongst us ? I guess seeing or not seeing swastika would depend on 1. Types of german troops you may come across in a particular mission. 2. Do you get to go to berlin in any of the missions as the invading Red Army. 3. Do the developers want it in their game. It seems a little strange to not come across no swastikas in the entire game ( if that is the case ). --------------------------------------- ahhhh nah but yeah!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Originally posted by Sammy_Davis_Jnr: wasnt responding to your post champ! Wasn't responding to yours, tough guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cincinatvs Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 No need of stav. Those who are addicted to this, can modded it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Granted, the swastika was used in the most ubiquitous aerial recognition flags, but not the only one. Fliegererkennungszeichen were either red flag with the swastika inside a white circle, same design with a regular Balkenkreuz cross inside the circle, or simply yellow cloth. Too bad the self-declared (hollow laugh on) "grognards" (/hollow laugh off) in this thread wouldnt know even such basics. as to the swastika itself. It is illegal in Germany. § 86a I StGB. You use it, you commit a crime. The only exceptions being, to explain in plain words, use within art, political, educational, research or jouirnalistic context (§ 86a III 1. Alt. iVm § 86 III StGB). And no, use within toys or recreational entertainment such as in a game cannot be made to fit into either of these categories. Have swastikas in ToW and at the very least Moon would be in real trouble. The way I see it, it is already a bit problematic the way Strategic Command is being advertised on this site (look at the ad atop the discussion boards general overview site), but then I am not with the D.A. anymore so I personally couldnt care less. If one really wanted to piss onto BTS/BF.Com one could always pull a § 86a II StGB on them, it is often overlooked that not only the swastika is prohibited (tho obviously that is the most obvious one). The law makes sense however, since if such NS symbolism is used on everyday toys and games then it would start to become accepted, even unconsciously, as just another historical symbol, and the exeptional horrific nature associated with it would erode. Especially with the type of people and their intellect who usually vociferously demand that it be included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 You can be shure I'm the first one to tell somebody where he can shove his politically correctness, but I wonder anyway why it is so important to some people to have swastikas in a computer game. If you really need them, hang a big swastika flag over your PC and feel happy (and try to explain your parents, wife, friends or whatever what's beautiful about it )! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franz Posted October 19, 2006 Author Share Posted October 19, 2006 It is important, because not being able to display swastikas in historical simulations is a constant reminder of the pathetic political environment we live in which we censor and distort history based on trendy, politically correct values. I am sick of playing games in which the balkenkreuz replaces swastikas. I for one, like my history 100% accurate (not watered down) and I make no apolgies for that. What about SS runes, are they allowed to be used on the collars of SS uniforms within the game, or are they censored aswell ? If they are, then how can you say that the SS runic symbol is more "socially" acceptable than the swastika ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Originally posted by franz: It is important, because not being able to display swastikas in historical simulations is a constant reminder of the pathetic political environment we live in which we censor and distort history based on trendy, politically correct values. I am sick of playing games in which the balkenkreuz replaces swastikas. I for one, like my history 100% accurate (not watered down) and I make no apolgies for that. What does a kid's game have to do with quote "history" unquote? Go buy a book about the SS and admire the swastikas to your heart's content. Better yet, go talk to a veteran - or a concentration camp survivor. Plenty of history in the world for everyone, don't expect to find it for sale in Germany in the form of a videogame is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franz Posted October 19, 2006 Author Share Posted October 19, 2006 - are you calling TOW a "kids" game. That is a really interesting one, that I am sure many would be happy to debate with you. - if you understood from my post that I admire swastikas, then I suggest you go back to elementary school and further study reading comprehension - you suggest I talk to veterans - as a long time collector and military history enthusiast I already have interviewed many veterans both allied and axis and published them on the internet and in print Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of Eckmühl Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Originally posted by franz: It is important, because not being able to display swastikas in historical simulations is a constant reminder of the pathetic political environment we live in which we censor and distort history based on trendy, politically correct values. I am sick of playing games in which the balkenkreuz replaces swastikas. I for one, like my history 100% accurate (not watered down) and I make no apolgies for that. What about SS runes, are they allowed to be used on the collars of SS uniforms within the game, or are they censored aswell ? If they are, then how can you say that the SS runic symbol is more "socially" acceptable than the swastika ? Given that "localization" of games makes it possible to ship a game to Germany without the legally banned symbol, I think it's kind of dumb not to include it in the game that ships to other countries. That said, YOU'RE on thin ice, here, on THIS forum. The management is hostile to your views about Germany's role in WW2, hostile I suspect to Germans, for that matter. If you expect a fair hearing about the politics of this, don't. You'll get mau-mau'd, and if you don't knuckle under PDQ, you'll be banned. Seen it happen, before, here at the ToW forum. PoE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Originally posted by Prince of Eckmühl: The management is hostile to your views about Germany's role in WW2, hostile I suspect to Germans, for that matter. If you expect a fair hearing about the politics of this, don't. Please justify these insults with direct references. I've been posting here for 5 years and I've never seen any kind of "anti-German" statements by the "management" if you're referring to BF.C. If you refer to the Russian developers, I can't speak for them, but the forum is run by BF.C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Originally posted by franz: You suggest I talk to veterans - as a long time collector and military history enthusiast I already have interviewed many veterans both allied and axis and published them on the internet and in print Under what name? Can you share a URL or two? As a published author and history graduate, I'd be interested in reading it. Here is one of my interviews, with a veteran of Panzer Lehr: http://www.deutschesoldaten.com/personal/martens.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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