Sammy_Davis_Jnr Posted September 25, 2006 Share Posted September 25, 2006 A good collection of photos May the dead rest in peace lest we forget http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3300044818303992551 --------------------- If there must be trouble let it be in my day, that my child may have peace. - Thomas Paine (1737-1809) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnersman Posted September 26, 2006 Share Posted September 26, 2006 That is a loooong memoriam. Nice collection of color pictures though. How far have we come that we can honor the WW2 German Wermacht? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbarossaDSS Posted September 26, 2006 Share Posted September 26, 2006 Originally posted by gunnersman: How far have we come that we can honor the WW2 German Wermacht? I try not to look at the world in terms of black and white. While I certainly wont ever honor Hilter, but the average german soldier was just a man fighting for his nation. Not to different from the allied nations in my eyes. To ignore their stories, chalk them up as evil monsters is to close your eyes to the possibity that such a thing could happen again in any other nation. "So as through a glass, and darkly The age long strife I see Where I fought in many guises, Many names, -- but always me." ~Patton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnersman Posted September 26, 2006 Share Posted September 26, 2006 This is true. However the average person does not realize that the German Army was apolotical despite the ultimate leadership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitori Kyo Posted September 26, 2006 Share Posted September 26, 2006 just look at America now =P haha ... is to easy to cast the enemy as evil and allies as good - Hitori kyo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boosh Posted September 26, 2006 Share Posted September 26, 2006 The winner writes the history. I've been struggling against it my entire life. My family says I'm crazy to defend the wehrmacht. They also refuse to believe my cited stories of American atrocities in the second world war. Some people are just blind to it, partially because they cannot understand its scope, others because they don't want to admit it's true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottie Posted September 26, 2006 Share Posted September 26, 2006 Originally posted by gunnersman: How far have we come that we can honor the WW2 German Wermacht? I totally agree, a very professional army the Wermacht. I read any WW2 book i can get my hands on and have gained much respect for the Wermacht. Very difficult case to argue in the pub however with mates that dont know any better. As far are they are concered all germans are nazis. Its hard to explain otherwise. Cheers Scott [ September 26, 2006, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: scottie ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitori Kyo Posted September 26, 2006 Share Posted September 26, 2006 many people are blind to history and human nature. - Hitori kyo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge77 Posted September 27, 2006 Share Posted September 27, 2006 Originally posted by Hitori Kyo: just look at America now =P haha ... is to easy to cast the enemy as evil and allies as good - Hitori kyo ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iplaygames2 Posted September 27, 2006 Share Posted September 27, 2006 I have come to the realization that credit must be given where it is earned. Contrary to popular opinion, all German soldiers weren't the Nazi monsters we've all been made to believe. Heck, most of the guys defending the Normandy beaches were kids or past their primes; they didn't want to be on those beaches anymore than our guys did. The Wermacht was a very skilled group of soldiers. They were outgunned and WAY outnumbered, and still fought bravely. I can't really say I'm glad they fought that way, many US and allied servicemen died to their bullets, but as was stated above, the Wermacht was fighting for their country just the same as our guys were. I wish I could go back in time and bring back several items off a battlefield...Wermacht weapons and clothing, maps, etc. I just think it would be so cool to have stuff from that time....now all I have to do is invent a time machine.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbarossaDSS Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 Originally posted by iplaygames2: I have come to the realization that credit must be given where it is earned. Contrary to popular opinion, all German soldiers weren't the Nazi monsters we've all been made to believe. Heck, most of the guys defending the Normandy beaches were kids or past their primes; they didn't want to be on those beaches anymore than our guys did. I'd have to dig up my old research papers but as I remember only around 3% of the regular Heer were Nazi party members. But don't quote me on that but it still was a very low number. If anyone is looking for a good read, check out "Soldat" about a german officer who fights in almost every campaign during the war, all the way to the end in Hilter's bunker. It gave me a very different perspective on the war from the german side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GI Jas Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 iplaygames2 Member Member # 20539 posted September 27, 2006 11:51 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "many US and allied servicemen died to their bullets, but as was stated above, the Wermacht was fighting for their country just the same as our guys were." Well, my grand father took a bullet from one right in the chest in North Africa, he said the only thing that saved him was a little Bible that he had in his pocket that stoped the bullet! He was in North Africa and Italy during the initial American invasions and didn't talk about it much but I remember him saying that the Germans as a people were very friendly and loving and that he considered moving to Russia after the war because of things he did not mention that the U.S. Army did over there (Europe) so just because we're Americans doesn't mean were not capable ourselves of performing war crimes and atrocities that the German's are noted for in history! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mord Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 Originally posted by Hitori Kyo: just look at America now =P haha ... is to easy to cast the enemy as evil and allies as good - Hitori kyo *SIGH*....Terror Apologists...are almost as funny as Nazi... Mord. [ September 27, 2006, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: Mord ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottie Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbarossaDSS Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 Its full title is: "Soldat: Reflections of a German Soldier, 1936 - 1949" by Siegfried Knappe with Ted Brusaw Knappe was the soldier and Brusaw the writer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srximus Posted September 30, 2006 Share Posted September 30, 2006 Hi. I agree that victors write history. Yes, all armies commits crimes. But, difference between a crime that US army did in Germany and crimes that Wermacht did in France, Belgium, Holland, Norway, Poland, Yugoslavia, Greece, USSR, Italy, North Africa nad Denmark are clear. US soldier or officers did commit crimes agianst both German POWs and civilians. Some crimes were crimes against civil law (rapes, robberies) and were commited in relativly small scale - not supported by US army or US as a state. Some army operations were directed against civilian population in Germany. Some US army battalions executed POWs becouse strategial reason - too many US GIs wold take roll of prison guards if those POW stayed alive. None of these crimes are connected or unified behind a dictatorlike ideology!!! No US president have ever said that US goes to war to make more territory for Americans to live on by killing another nation. Neither has any of Allied leaders ever said that Germans are second class nation without right for future!!! Bombs killing civilians in Dresden are product of (maybe, inhumane)plan of defeating Nazi leadership, which were supported by just those people living in Dresden. Please don't try to say that some other Germans supported Hitler or that only 3% of Wermacht were Nazis. Does it matter that only 3% of army that had Hitler as supreme leader, had acctual membership in Nazi party? Not for me or my family. We are not westeuropeans, nope. We are people that Hitlers Wermach decimated from 1942-1945. I guess that American or Scotchman can notice how well organised Wermacht were and even notice haw few of German soldier payed their Nazi party membership. Its all about perspective. When Wermacht came to my country they were well organized, endeed. They even brought a psychologists whit them. Wermacht organized mass-executions by driving entire village population out in the woods and making them dig their own graves. Then they used MGs to whipe them out. Thats why a psychologist was needed. Young Wermacht soldiers had a rough time killing. It took so long time and many of children killed looked, maybe, like someones syster or brother back in Germany. You see, SS troops were more inovative in mass-murders. While Wermacht used MG-34 to butcher civilians, SS used fire. No graves needed, no psychology treatments. Just, lock up all civilians in a big barn or a church and put it on fire. So, I guess that thin line between seeing Wermach as effective and wellorganized or as brutal and ruthless, is if You lived in Scotland or in Belarus during 1943. Wermacht soldiers carried out Hitlers orders...dont mind how many "liked" Hitler. Hitlers killings were carried out by Wermacht. Later, almost all guilt was thrown on SS. That too is way of how history was written. I do not try to show lack of respect for killed german soldiers. I do not believe to be supreme race. All humen victimes in WWII are same for me. Maeningless deaths. But, please, dont make Wermacht look like some well oiled, unpolitical, unideological, Hitler- and Nazi-unbound, army. Then, You do show lack of respect for Wermacht victimes who felt wrath of Wermacht tight Nazi-ideology and political links and direct Hitlers annihilation orders. Thank You. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of Eckmühl Posted September 30, 2006 Share Posted September 30, 2006 A dear aunt of mine married into the family after WW2. My uncle was part of the army that occupied Germany post-war and met her while he was stationed there in the late '40s. For a host of reasons that I will not detail here, I became a de facto child of theirs and "Bill" and myself grew quite close. She did not talk about the war, at all. But, on one count she did articulate her views, and that was her love of America and, in particular, of the American soldiers that she believed had saved her from the Russians. It's funny how the folks who criticize the behavior of American forces forget to mention that German refugees, civilian and military alike, clamored to no end in seeking refuge in American occupation after WW2. Did U.S. forces commit atrocities during the war or in its aftermath? Well, of course they did. Were the acts "legal?" Well, no, they were not. Were the perps prosecuted? Nah. Half a million Americans were dead, 98% of them across some God-forsaken ocean that they would never on their own have conived to cross, let alone make war, in the defense of folks that they frequently couldn't even carry on a conversation with. The war was over, and there would be no great "cleansing" of "bad-apples." What about Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Enough Americans were dead already. Had the weapons not been used, civilian and military deaths in the naval and land campaigns that ensued would have dwarved those associated with the bombings. The use of the atomic bombs likely saved millions of Japanese lives. Haven't U.S. forces raped women in their path? Sure they have. About a decade ago, three American servicemen raped an Okinawan girl and caused all manner of controversy in the process. The three perps were put on trial and sent off to prison for a long, long time. But, there was another victim. A high-ranking Navy official was sacked for expressing his opinion that the men could have visited a "hooch" and saved all involved a lot of heartache. Boy, now that's a long way from Zhukov, Yama****a or Kesselring, huh? And therein lies my point, I suppose. The difference between the German armed forces and those of the Western Allies was that the latter were constrained by all kinds of law, the fabric of which was sorely tested during history's greatest conflict, but one which endured, to their everlasting credit. The Germans, Russians and Japanese evidenced no such constraint. Criminal polical systems provided a rubber-stamp legitimizing whatever military excess that the exigencies of the moment might require. The only rule was that there weren't any. Driven by ideology, they fought total war with utter, perverse abandon, and all, to a degree, rept the whirlwind. So, please, stop the equivocation. Interning a quarter of a million Japanese is not the same as killing five million Jews so confined. A G.I. shooting a guy with his hands in the air is not the same as a Field Marshall mandating the action, and sailors raping a teenager is not the same as a nation's political leadership promoting the practice. Were Wilhemina Maben still alive and sitting in front of this keyboard, she'd agree, I have no doubt. PoE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbarossaDSS Posted September 30, 2006 Share Posted September 30, 2006 Originally posted by srximus: Please don't try to say that some other Germans supported Hitler or that only 3% of Wermacht were Nazis. Does it matter that only 3% of army that had Hitler as supreme leader, had acctual membership in Nazi party? You bring up good points and to refer to your comment that was my point to some degree. I was attempting to illustrate that not all German soldiers were Nazis, and of course they don't have to be to do terrible things. The fact that an army doesn't have to be 100% made up of politically indoctrinated fanatics to do monstrous things to me is worse. To some German soldiers it sounded like fighting under Hitler was no different to a US GI fighting under Pres. Bush. Certainly that was partly a result of years of German military breeding towards the tradition to be loyal and apolitical. But dictatorship is one thing, but I see the grounding point that enabled the war is pride. And that was harness by nationalism. Without nationalism on the side of the Germans I don't think Hitler would have had any power base. But anyway, thank you guys for sharing your stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitori Kyo Posted October 1, 2006 Share Posted October 1, 2006 Sarge77 .. i was refering the the facist actions of the bush regime, does not mean everyone belives in what is done but they do nothing to stop it either (comparing to nazi germany). srximus, your argument is pure sophistry, killing pow for stratigical reasons is called murder and war crimes the sames as its german counterparts. You only have to look at the western allies "strategic bombing" to see a pure distructive allied ideology. Russia "uncle joe" was easily on par with german warcrimes yet it was let slide because they were allies? The victors were not held accountable for the crimes, the defeated were to some extent. Crimes against humanity are a by product of war and no one side can claim to be right or wrong. - Hitory kyo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbarossaDSS Posted October 1, 2006 Share Posted October 1, 2006 Good points Hitori: Robert McNamara, one of the minds who engineered the fire bombing of Tokyo and latter the defense sec during Vietnam under Johnson, said had the allies lost WWII, he would have gone up on war crime charges for what he did. Bombing of civilians is one of the most terrible side products of war. "Shock and Awe" doesn't ever work to win a war. And very rarely does it demoralize a people into surrender. It just kills innocents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traemyn Posted October 1, 2006 Share Posted October 1, 2006 Originally posted by Hitori Kyo: Sarge77 .. i was refering the the facist actions of the bush regime, does not mean everyone belives in what is done but they do nothing to stop it either (comparing to nazi germany). - Hitory kyo side-note ~ well its very hard to do anything when the nation is split 50-50 and Bush's buddies control both House and Senate (hopefully changing soon -- har har, had to say it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitori Kyo Posted October 1, 2006 Share Posted October 1, 2006 good fortune traemyn .. the world is watching and hoping that your right. congress must act. - Hitori kyo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnersman Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 srximus, well put. I can understand what you are saying. I can't relate, but I can understand and empathize. It seems that there are those of us that tend to see the good side of some aspects of life. In this particular case sometimes that is in the form of glorifying military figures i.e. Samurai, mid evil knights, soldiers in general, what have you. We take these figures then romanticize them. Sometimes we maybe take the romantacism too far. It seems WW2 is still pretty fresh in everyones mind. Technology will not let us forget. Although we should not let our want for good blind us to the potentials of evil. However, it is hard for some of us to imagine that potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy_Davis_Jnr Posted October 2, 2006 Author Share Posted October 2, 2006 No US president have ever said that US goes to war to make more territory for Americans to live on by killing another nation. srximus srximus i think you mis-understood what people here are saying...i dont think anyone is being apologetic towards the Wermact. I posted the photos as memoriam for those who have fallen. It was never a political statement..it was bascically about those who lost their lives..a brother, father, son, grandson...german soldiers had family as well. It was just reminder of how fruitless war can be. As for some of your statements about the US Govt..well lets face it it took Pearl harbour to drag the US into the war...It was not because of some higher morale and let me say this the US were not alone. The Allies would have turned a blind eye towards crimes against the Jews and other minority if the Hitler didnt invade Poland. The US did not enter the war until 1941 ? The US and the Brits turn a blind eye now to many conflicts and genecides at this present moment. -------------------------------------- Justice without force is powerless; force without justice is tyrannical.( consider the Iraq conflict) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sig Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 Originally posted by BarbarossaDSS: Good points Hitori: Robert McNamara, one of the minds who engineered the fire bombing of Tokyo and latter the defense sec during Vietnam under Johnson, said had the allies lost WWII, he would have gone up on war crime charges for what he did. (snip)Hello, I think it was Curtis LeMAy: taken from LeMay_1 and LeMay_2 LeMay was quite aware of both the brutality of his actions and the Japanese opinion of him — he once remarked that had the U.S. lost the war, he fully expected to be tried for war crimes, especially in view of Japanese executions of uniformed American flight crews during the 1942 Doolittle raid. Sig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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