Howdy CM Fanbois!

[THE Sabot]

****I really hope this is "the one". You should have heard what I told people in 1996 about where I saw computer wargames at 5-10 years down the road. Its a travesty.

****Earlier this year I modded out a flashbanger called "Codename Panzers" to what I call 'tolerable gameplay'. Check it out at www.coffinpilots.com

****What Im getting at is: most of these "gamers" dont give a rats ass about realism...they only seek balance and/or exploits. Check out the newest flashbanger "Company of Heros"

http://planetcoh.gamespy.com/

****A utterly stunning blond dimwitted hooker it is. Wanna get "shouted down" for suggesting realistic ranges and damage models? You cant argue with the mass of middleschool Son-of-Starcraft.....and thats who's buying these "wargames" enmasse...so thats who the most talented (who want the most money) designers and artists cater to.

****Just for laughs, you might want to read some of their arguments on Sherman vs Tiger vs StuG...

]http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=101962]

****Anyways, when I saw that Hofbauer had something to do with this forum, I figgered it must be a den of snakes...so I registered!

[gunnersman]

Welcome aboard.

So...'fanbois'....is that French? Cajun?

[Manx]

Welcome.

Anyone daft enough to want to try and mod CP in the first place needs to be given respect. And support. And a straight-jacket.

Welcome again.

[ September 02, 2006, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: Manx ]

[THE Sabot]

"So...'fanbois'....is that French? Cajun?"

****I dunno...I saw it spelled that way here for the first time...thought it was netspeak. Heck, I just learned what "nerf" and "buff" ment last week!

":Anyone daft enough to want to try and mod CP in the first place needs to be given respect. And support. And a straight-jacket."

****Pretty women will cloud your judgement...remember that. Plus, its very, very moddable and has an excellent world editor. I was able to make some exciting Kursk singleplayer battles with many scripted events.

****This one looks very promising, but Ive read here there can be no modding../??. Lets keep our fingers crossed.

[SlapHappy]

Hey Sabot

To the best of my knowledge, C:Panzers used a "health bar" system for tank damage modelling. I would assume this is still the case for your mod? What were the major things you changed with your mod?

[M Hofbauer]

who are you?

are you by any chance THE sabot ?

(excuse the unintended pun but the question is for real)

[whaco]

Hof,I am guessing this is lawrence Jameson, AKA Sabot. Tank veteran of US Army and tank historian. I'm glad to see he is alive and well. Haven't heard from him since GIC days and Ryan's Forums. :eek:

[Manx]

Just seen this man's pimped-up Tigers! Add a padded cell to my previous list.

Respect to you though.

Make yourself at home.

[Manx]

Originally posted by THE Sabot:

":Anyone daft enough to want to try and mod CP in the first place needs to be given respect. And support. And a straight-jacket."

****Pretty women will cloud your judgement...remember that. Plus, its very, very moddable and has an excellent world editor. I was able to make some exciting Kursk singleplayer battles with many scripted events.

Pretty women!. I have no time for pretty women. Or women. I'm a hardcore wargamer!

[THE Sabot]

**** @Hof: It's the one and only, baby. Hence the "THE". Auf peterstain, old chap!

"Hey Sabot

To the best of my knowledge, C:Panzers used a "health bar" system for tank damage modelling. I would assume this is still the case for your mod? What were the major things you changed with your mod? "

****Yes it does use a health bar. There are many limitations to the game that cannot be overcome. One, the Camera has a set range of zoom and depression, therefore true scale ranges make gameplay tiresome. Also, every tank maingun shot is a hit ...every gunner is an ace. Accuracy is adjustable for arty and indirect fire weapons, but not direct fire tank cannons. I could go on and on...but...what I did first was increase the ranges of all weapons to 3 or more times the default. This gave say a Tiger an edge to edge range when zoomed fully out on fullscreen (without interface)...approx scale range of about 7-800m Id say. Their values are not expresed in metres or anything recognizable in the files so I made a "test range" map with every unit in the game and set up poles and drew lines sort of like a football pitch...singleplayer, no objective, every unit on my 'team':

I could then drive tanks head to head, controling all, force them to fire at each other at various ranges. From these extensive "scientific" tests, I juggled the data.

****I couldnt change the "hit point" system they had, but I could make it do what I wanted. First I cut all the Hit Points WAY, WAY down..(cause thats what was causing the "10 shots to kill a sherman with a Tiger" thing). Then I nutered all "repair trucks"...made them regular trucks ,then I adjusted the armor values (front side rear top) to historical values...which the default closely mimicked in its numerical values...although no benfits for sloped armor ect..Anyways I juggled damage values Armor and Hit Points until I got the results I wanted: Tiger Kills T34 frontally any range 1-2 shots, ect, ectect...

****Oh yeah, all this time I was skinning like Grizzly Adams on crack...over 70 historical skins for the Kursk mod. You can check it out here: http://www.coffinpilots.com/cp_pics.htm

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Welcome, friend.

[DASman]

Hey Sabot,

I'll point the guys at work to this mod. They play the heck out of that game. Which explians a lot me thinks.

E

[THE Sabot]

****Eric?....

****I have several mods out for it...Panzerblitz1 (yep, named after the old AH chit-pusher): high unit cost (small skirmishes 12-15 units ea.) Completely reworked data, bla, bla, bla...Panzerblitz2: low unit costs (big battles in skirmish mode...30-50 units per side), extra skins, music,loading screens, ect. ...Kursk: PZbltz2 data, 4 singleplayer maps, 3 MP maps, buku skins, music featuring Metallica w/special guest Hitler Sample mp3 , Wagner, Megadeth, Beethoven, Ministry and others. I am currently working on a supersized bocage/hills/village map for a small Mortain mod Im making. The MP version of the map will weigh in at about 20MP, Im figgerin. Also working on Panzerblitz3...increased ranges and experimenting with giving all direct fire weapons indirect fire trajectorys (set at 1 degree elevation) to try to induce misses shots at increased ranges.

****Anyways, Im hoping this ToW game will blow all that out of the water, and I can just remember all my work on Codename Panzers as a learning experience...just like Close/GI Combat!

[ September 03, 2006, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: THE Sabot ]

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by THE Sabot:

****Eric?....

****I have several mods out for it...Panzerblitz1 (yep, named after the old AH chit-pusher): high unit cost (small skirmishes 12-15 units ea.) Completely reworked data, bla, bla, bla...Panzerblitz2: low unit costs (big battles in skirmish mode...30-50 units per side), extra skins, music,loading screens, ect. ...Kursk: PZbltz2 data, 4 singleplayer maps, 3 MP maps, buku skins, music featuring Metallica w/special guest Hitler Sample mp3 , Wagner, Megadeth, Beethoven, Ministry and others. I am currently working on a supersized bocage/hills/village map for a small Mortain mod Im making. The MP version of the map will weigh in at about 20MP, Im figgerin. Also working on Panzerblitz3...increased ranges and experimenting with giving all direct fire weapons indirect fire trajectorys (set at 1 degree elevation) to try to induce misses shots at increased ranges.

well that definitely does sound so stunning crazy that you must be the one true M829.

still remember that pic of yours from Desert Storm, sitting in the desert with the board and counters from... what was it, Panzerblitz? or somefink.

btw: yes thats E.

[DASman]

yeah, that's me

E

[traemyn]

@THE Sabot

just out of curiosity, have you ever played Soldiers:Heroes of WW2. And if so why do you feel that Codename Panzers is better?

I ask because you seem to put so much effort into trying to make Codename panzers so much better when imo SHOWW2 engine/gameplay/realism far surpass anything anyone could accomplish modding in a Codename Panzers game. The most obvious advantage being the lack of the "HP-gameplay".

You should think about 'converting' over to Soldiers or Faces of War, a modding vet like yourself would be very appreciated in the community. And you speak good english!!!

[Max Wünsche]

Thing is ive heard that this faces of war game limits you to 12 units - people per mission...

Its turned into commando type game...!

Not worth modding imo!!!

Im interedted in 'OFFICERS' this game has potential other than the fact the developers have gone AWOL for the last month... no action at the website at present...

Have great expectations/hopes for this game...

Hopefully a Scenario/map maker will be and add-on in the future and that map sizes can be increased in size...

[Sammy_Davis_Jnr]

quote:

You should think about 'converting' over to Soldiers or Faces of War, a modding vet like yourself would be very appreciated in the community. And you speak good english!!!

traemyn

Totally agree... to be honest modding codename panzers a game which tanks have health bars is a waste of time...it seems someone as talented as THE Sabot should seriously look into SHOWW2 or FOW.

----------------------------------

Among the men who fought on Iwo Jima, uncommon valor was a common virtue - Admiral Nimitz.

[Max Wünsche]

Just exactly how realistic is SHOWW2 ???

I highly doubt it...!

[SlapHappy]

I was watching for the release of both these games and eventually did buy SHOWWII. It was quite fun, IMO, however it's convertability to a truly realistic tactical simulation of WWII is questionable. For one thing, it lacks the sophisticated armor penetration rules you'd see in a Battlefront developed game.

Secondly, maps were a bit small, with most around 500-600 meters. There were some good mods which increased playable armor types and increased realism somewhat. It mostly benefited multi-player because the AI wasn't very good at all.

[THE Sabot]

****Ok, back in the old days, I would have come out at you guys, guns-a-blazin. Im more calm now. Modding Codename Panzers has not been a waste of my time. At the very least it has honed my Photoshop skills

****Im not here to defend CP. But I will if I have to.

****First, FoW, although stunning graphically, has a HARD CODED hit Points system. That means you cannot mod or adjust their Hit points system. That eliminates it for consideration.

****SHOWW2 focuses on way smaller engagements than I want to play. Although I know some CP modders who "switched" over to Soldiers.

****Although CP uses a health bar for damage assesment, its a little deeper than that. Each weapon has a "damage" value, and you have 4 sides of armor values, plus the top. THEN, each crewmember has 100 "hit points". THATS where the demon was hiding in this system. What was happenning was this: A tank fires at another. The damage value of the firing gun is compared to the armor value of the target. Now, the armor value would take some of the damage, modified somewhat by range, and the remaining damage would be absorbed by the crew's Hit Points. This system sounds like its starting out ok, but heres the rub: The crew's HP value of 100 ea is not represented individually...its a lump sum. And so the crew was "dead" when they reached 0, and full strenth (ability and manpower wise) until then. So, thats why tanks in this system were taking multiple shots to knock out, even when grossly overmatched. The "health bar" you see is exatly that...crew HitPoints. And THAT was what determined the destruction of the vehicle.

****So, I did away with the hit points. Kinda. I just changed their meaning. Now I gave out hit points as an expression of X. X being a compination of crew skill, luck, superior vehicle design, ect...This number was much lower than the default...ranging from ~15 (halftrack) to 100 (Tiger).

****Now, with damage and armor values modded to mimic real life, penetrating shots would quickly eat the "hit Points" to 0 when appropriate. Balancing those HP with the damage/armor values was the key to getting "realistic" results. So, in this game I was using abstract methods to get "realistic looking" results ingame. All of this was possible experiments with my "test range" map.

****You can prolly pick up CP2 for about 10 bucks in the bargin bin of any EB store. Get it...play one default battle..or try to...I did...and I never played another. Anyways, download the last patch. Download my Kursk mod. Play any of the 4 singleplayer battles offered: Cherkasskoye, Ponyri I & II, and Provhorovka. Then, if you still want to say I was wasting my time, I will submit to arguments. Although abstract and limited in many ways, you still must apply real-world tactics to "win" the scenarios. And also...when Ive got the entire Tiger companys of Das Reich and LAH dueling massed T34 onslaughts, I dont care if Tiger S22 just got a glancing shot off the left side turret of T34 #1003, moving obliquly towards him at 657m....There are too many shots going off at one time at this scale to pay attention to minute details. Im trying to control and co-ordinate 70+ vehicles and troops sometimes. As long as the results are visually believable, who cares how you got them?

****Now I wont refund your money or nothin, but if you dont have fun playing it...you should just quit wargaming.

LJ

[traemyn]

well I have to clarify a little bit. Whenever I speak with admiration for SHOWW2 (and hopefully FoW) I am only talking about multiplayer. Single player is ok but its not where the game is great. There are a number of MP mods for SHOWW2 that VERY MUCH up the realism of every tank and gun. Also they add TONS of new models and units.

A typical (and most played) type of multiplayer is BattleZone, where you capture a zone and have to hold it for points. With common 'buy points' settings there will probably be 3-4 tanks per player and 20-30 infantry (EDIT: per player)at any given time. Max players is something like 16.

Now about the "HP-armor" in Faces of War. Yes this is not good. We are already looking how to remove it though and believe the "Soldiers" system is still there.

Here is a summary of the penetration/armor system from a FoW dev.

Simplified description of game armor system.

0. AP shell is fired out of gun.

1. AP shell hits something. Let it be tank armor. Shell has passed some distance D from gun to this point. Tank armor has some thickness T. Angle between shell path and armor plate surface is equal to A.

Armor thickness to be penetrated is T' = T / cos A. In game T' can't be greater than 2T.

1.1 Shell piercing energy E is computed as shell.projectiveDamage * gun.ballisticCurve(D, gun.aimRange). Ballistic curve is used to simulate fading of piercing ability with distance.

1.2 Now we compare T' with shell piercing energy E. If E is bigger that T' then this armor is pierced.

1.3 If E is big enough to do any damage to armor, then armor damage zone will be created. And armor thickness in that zone will become lower according to E. Size of zone depends on gun caliber.

2. Results of hit can be:

- pierce (shell will go further and it's energy will be decreased according to T')

- stuck (shell flight stops here)

- ricochet (chances for ricochet is calculated on basis of material and angle A)

Like I said above, take into account the HP-system (1.3 part) of it can 'probably' be removed. By probably I mean that the tests I have completed so far look very promising, so don't claim it is HARDCODED unless you have a dev quote.

FoW's system seems pretty good to me, a lot more complex than many other games of this genre(not counting CM, and the likes of course). Btw thanks for not jumping down our throats, I did not mean to be as rude as the guy that said you were 'wasting your time'. I just meant you could have more fun working a game with more potential.

[ September 04, 2006, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: traemyn ]

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by traemyn:

A typical (and most played) type of multiplayer is BattleZone, where you capture a zone and have to hold it for points. With common 'buy points' settings there will probably be 3-4 tanks per player and 20-30 infantry at any given time. Max players is something like 16.

[southPark Voice]

oh, so thats what World War Two really was like...

[traemyn]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

[southPark Voice]

oh, so thats what World War Two really was like...

Screw you guys…I'm goin' home.

[Manx]

Hey SABOT! I would just like to say that i hope you took my couple of posts about you modding CP in good humour. I think you did. It was meant that way.

I bought Codename Panzers and found out pretty quickly that it wasn't for me, mainly due to some of the issues and limitations you have brought up in your posts. To me, S-HOWW2 was a little better and it had some nice touches/features here and there, but again after a short time i sort of gave up on it. I tried it again with a few mods and new maps and i found it quite fun, but lacking in realism a little. Be nice to have both. That's what i am hoping for in TOW.

Anyway, looks like you've done some great work with CP and i hope you carry on doing what you enjoy. Let's hope you won't have to mod TOW as much, if you know what i mean. Respect to you sir!