THE Sabot

****U speeke Englishki mucho? No? ****If I have realistic penetrations in my mods then I should stop calling it "realistic"....?????Are you from one of the countries we conquered? If so, thats sad. If not, lemme see if I can get yall on the list. LJ

****Aint you the clown who....spends your free time complaining about other people? Or are you just a plain ole clown? ****Play my Panzers mods, then run your trap...til then, you dont know what youre talking about.

****They final got the tactical gameplay right in 3...the crown jewel. 4 was an abomination and 5 was only marginally better. For Campaigns, however, there is none better than 2. IMHO the strat maps of 4 and 5 , while a good idea "on paper" invariably degenerate into a slogging match over the same maps, again and again...Throw in the demon known as "Force Morale" (or ****ing Magic, as I like to call it), and you have a ****ed up, frustrating, unrealistic game....Might as well play CM Seriously, the strat map of 4 and 5 screwed up the tactical gameplay. LJ

****Some nice shots...but...I have yet to see grunts taking cover....MGs set up in the open...schreks firing from the middle of the fields and road. It looks like infantry are once again just meat shields to draw enemy fire away from your tanks...But we will see....

****Better hope woods and stuff give good cover to grunts...they wont be taking cover in any buildings! ****Because of this, I imagine the designers will have lots of rural terrain battles and not much urban. bUt just a guess... LJ

****You might not can see it, but the tank in the game can!...Point is: Tanks in the games have instant 360 degree target aqusition. It is impossible to use a "tank hunter" team or single soldier to rush from cover to cover to get into range for a shot. Even approched from the rear or what should be "blind spots", the tank will aquire and engage the inf instantly. Now, yes, you might try to blocking terrain to mask your entire approach, but then you wont have LOS to the target and might not even know its there in the first place. ****What Im saying is tanks need a reduced "situational awareness" while buttoned up. LJ

****Im sorry...I just ment that you cant take a painting (artist's rendering) and call it gospel...color, pattern, anything...Let me see the photograph (black and white or otherwise) it was taken from. ***The other point I was trying to make was that markings, camo and numbering systems (especially on Tigers) changed frequently, due either to unit reorganization, or drawing of new tanks for whole units. ****Im still searching a round for an article I had on the paint issued to the panzer units and it's application. ****Speaking of standardization...yes at times there were factory applied schemes(Ambush is an example) but they were not really schemes as much as they were styles. Example: Back when M1A1s had factory woodland 3 color schemes (80's), Every one was identical...same pattern, same colors in the same places of the tank on all...Because the German facory schemes were painted "by hand" by humans, they share simular patterns and of course colors, but each was unique. ****Camo paint applied in the field varied widely in color also ans even the issued paint came in a paste form, to be mixed with water, turpentine, whatever...by the crew. differrent consistancy of the mixes and thinners resulted in different color shades. Also some people seemed to be more "artistic" with the spray gun than others! LJ

****Sorry...those three pics, while nice looking, are an artist's rendering... paintings. The first pic, GD 1943 scheme...From everything Ive read, the GD scheme at this time was actually the new green and brown issue paint sprayed over the Tigers original dark gray. Some sources say they remained a unique greenish-gray allover without cammo spray at this time. Now thats until Aug 43, when new tigers were received. The turret numbers show this to be the A co. XO's Tiger from Sept 1943....so if you were modeling a Kursk campaign (july), this scheme and numbering system would be incorrect.

****But which is more frustrating to you as a gamer?....All units aquiring all targets in LOS and range, 360*, instantly... Or your units getting shot and killed from enemy units they (and you) cant "see", because of a longer "game range" or any of the sillohuette/camo/concealment factors you were talking about earlier....??? ****I actually think turret orientation should play a part in it for tanks, with a defined arc of LOS for the gunner, and a shorter, yet much wider "awareness" zone for an unbuttoned TC...but then the player would have to be able to set turret facings and that just doubles your workload right there...too much. Add in buttoning and unbuttoning...it would be way too much for controlling more than a small handfull of tanks in realtime. LJ

****Yes, nice Panther. Its in that book too. Its at the German Army Tank Museum. Its a Panther Ausf A outfitted to be a battalion command panzer. Be vary wary of museum schemes...this one is OK, but the great majority are WAY off base. ****Yes, experimentation with camo schemes for german vehicles is good...but you should stick to schemes relevant to whatever units and timeframes you are trying to represent. ****Exampl: Kursk/Summer1943...Most Ferdinands in schw PnzJag Abtl 654 (Noak) had a "turtle shell" scheme like this: ****So you make some skins like this: ****Some of the command Ferds were done like this: ****So you do like this: ****And so on... ****Alot of people I know clone their schemes on, but I like to paint my own. I do however, clone SS camo patterns (pea, oak, plane, palm, ect..)onto inf soldiers rather than try to draw each dot. Also there are many SScammo textures out there in color. ****Also, I sometimes clone from color photos of...German helmets. You get the metal texture, sheen, chip-off and authentic colors. I have a few photos of a few German helms which must have been sprayed during a panzer painting. They have very good tan, green and brown colors to them... original colors. I cloned most this whole Tiger from one of these helmets: LJ

****Here are two sites I find helpful. Many excellent artworks. mythic panzers profils ****Of course you know the shortage of color photos of axis camo schemes. There are a few late-war pics out there: exmpl: And a small # of books: I have this one. Its mostly museums, but they do have some very rare latewar pics from Aberdeen. Ex:Sorry no color (my scanner ancient...Blaka nd white only) on this one (in the book is color): ****And this is the crazy Jadgpanther I made from it...fresh off the assembly line, primer red with sand and gray stripes. LJ

****Gunner...Thanks...thats exactly what I was trying to say! Also, sneaking up on tanks with AT inf is impossible. LJ

****Will this be in the game? There's a huge dif in target aqiusition. ****Speaking of which..thats one thing that always gripes my ass in games...the "instant" aqiusition of any enemy targets within a units LOS. LJ

****Yeah, OK. I caught a bit of hell from grogs with this Grossdeutchland StuG in wellenmuster scheme...but I left it in anyways.

****But if we can have pauses in MP it will allow us geezers to stop and take our medicine, change our diaper, get a prune froms the fridge, answer the phone, call in our prescriptions, ect..."Dagnabit!! I was playing a game???" ****This game will be too slow for yung flashbangers....dont sweat it...

****Sadly....Yes, it does say that.

****@ Mr lucky...Ummm...Historical cammos would prolly be best.... ****Pink Panthers...???Bahhh. Pink t-34/85s says I, mit fairy insignia...

****If the MP is played COMPETITIVELY...between strangers or not, and the main goal is to WIN for a WIN, then pause has to be ommitted in order to keep a level playing field. ****If the MP game is played SOCIALLY...between friends, and the main goal is to enjoy the tactical tit-for-tat of company-level combat, then a pause is needed...for reasons already stated ad nauseum... ****This ToW is not going to be a COMPETITIVE MP game. It will be social and groggy...like CM. Hell, by your own admissions, half you geezers dont have the computer and/or the datapipe to run modern MP RTSs anyways. Most "flashbangers" will be totally turned of by the "slowness" of ToW and the dated graphics...your worrys about clickfesting are unneeded. LJ

****I would just like to see mine dogs with kill rings..that could enter buildings, of course.

But being a Russian company, you think they would have included these "mine dogs" too. From RfB:

****How could it be a clickfest? Well, Im gonna mod it so the ranges are super short, Shermans are just as powerful as Tigers, introduce heathbars, repair trucks, ect...Also will make all squads graphics 3 men...oh, and an auto-pause every 60 sec...tank factorys, of course...and also you wont be able to enter buildings...oh...wait a minute...

****With your pause fest going on, Id imagine quite alot of micro going on. Youd have to issue orders many turns in advance. I say turns, because when you pause every 60 sec...thats what you got. Call it we-go or whatever..its turnbased. 2 to 5 min delays, huh?...hell, Ill be able to piss and make babies during that time... Jeeze, pausing every 60 sec was the worse "feature" of CM. LJ

****I hope ToW is a flashbanging clickfest....or not. IMO it looks like a cross between CC and CM...which might not be {pause} such a bad thing. LJ

****Pausers....sigh.... ****The game should begin paused. Once the player(s) analizes the situation, forms groups and issues intial orders...thats it. Thats all that is needed. I very much doubt that ToW will be a "clickfest"...from the movies of gameplay, it seems to play out at a CC-like speed. For any people used to controlling 50-70 vehicles at a time in some of these other RTS, it shouldnt be a problem. ****If you would like to know how some of your "flashbanging" brothers view this topic, please read a few posts into this thread: http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=108789 lj

****I'd take troops being able to enter buildings over smoke any day.