M Hofbauer Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Hello there, just a quick heads up ! from me, just passing by. A friend tipped me off about this BTS/ToW thing. Looks very promising. Individual soldiers, RTS, soldier monitor, campaign, RPG elements... BTS really came a long way LOL. But thats not what I am here for. Couldnt help but notice a couple of issues when looking at the screenshots. First, from these two it seems small arms AP capability is a bit off... http://www.battlefront.com/products/tow/screenshots/pages/ww2%202006-07-25%2011-59-15-31.html http://www.battlefront.com/products/tow/screenshots/pages/ww2%202006-07-25%2012-04-19-50.html If I interpret these screenshots correctly (transapplying the cc1 soldier monitor *g*) it would seem you are suggesting that a nimble Polish VIS 1935 pistol firing regular 9x19 Parabellum would penetrate 5mm, and the polish Mauser firing regular 7.92x57 ammo even 15mm of armor ? :eek: if thats the case, we can say good-bye to the concept of armored cars and vehicles below full-grown tank status. a 9x19 projectile even when fired from an MP-40 would barely dent armor of 2mm... (much less when fired from the 117-119mm barrels of a VIS 1935) and the 7.92x57 M03/M05 (8x57 JS) Mauser cartridge using the regular sS projectile would penetrate about 5mm at 100m, it would require special AP versions (like the SmK / SmK(H) projectiles) which the olish to my knowledge did not use - to get beyond 5mm/100. or am I missing something, or misreqading that soldier monitor? :confused: oh, and another thing: http://www.battlefront.com/products/tow/screenshots/pages/grab0007.html Regular Panzerfaust warheads dont leave such smoketrails. Nihil novum sub sole: http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000970 http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=001000 http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=001017 ergo: smoketrail should be removed, and instead the launch plume increased. Wishing you all the best for your project, looking interesting so far sincerely M.Hofbauer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkel Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Just a thought, but i think it's for shooting through helmet-armor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Good answer! No idea if it's correct, but it sounds good to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmatt Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Two things, sometimes the armor penetration chart lags a little behind what the mouse has selected and I tend to quickly zip through units while taking screenshots, so it may actually be showing stats for a previous weapon. More importantly, I have never seen small arms take out a vehicle like an armored car so I don't think you have anything to worry about there. Actually, there is a third point, what you're seeing is still pre-release, and graphics like those charts may still change so I wouldn't be too concerned about it just yet. I will have a look in game though all the same. Madmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted August 1, 2006 Author Share Posted August 1, 2006 Damn you're all just a little bit fast for me ! Arkel, I dont think that is very plausible. Ive never seen a steelpot helmet with 15mm of armor. for your idea it would be sufficient to have an I / 0 indication of can / can not penetrate at such and such range. Penetration values for small arms are highly important not only for shooting at ACs/AFVs or helmets - depending on the AP value of a given small arm it determines whether they can shoot through different qualities of cover. Like, you can take cover behind a tree log to protect you from 9mm pistol fire - but not from 7.92mm full power rifle cartridges. AP values given for penetration of armor or, better yet, for simple steel, can, to a degree (and adm,ittedly with a none too small factor of potential inaccuracy, but I am talking about tendency, in a game formula) , be transformed into penetration values for brick walls, pine wood, sandbags etc. pp. but I digress, I am getting carried away once again. all I wanted was to quickly add the following to my original post: copypaste: oh, and one more thing. I really dare not voice it. but here goes (since I'll be gone again anyhow) have you considered medics, stretcher-bearers or, at the very essential least, modeling buddy aid? I know you'll be all saying OMG-featurecreep-frickinMicromanagement/RPG etc yada yada but wait- thing is, if in a squad of 8 soldiers two get shot, there will be less than 6 left fighting immediately after the two got shot, because two to three of their healthy buddies will rush to the aid of the shot ones. that is what makes WIA and buddy aid so important for tactical considerations. The effect of wounding a soldier goes beyond taking that one soldier out of the game. Plus their buddies are willing to do most heroic things to save them. I'ld totally sufficient if buddy aid was automated into AI behavior of his comrades. Ok ... Im outta here for now *g* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmatt Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Actually, in the unit list I do see "orderlies" for various nations, but I haven't actually played with them yet, so I can't comment on what they do, or what they look like... Madmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMotion Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Should that immediate buddy aid be always automated though? I recently watched an episode of a TV series about Normandy landings. They interviewed a British infantry soldier who took part in an attack in June 1944 near Tilly. He said they had a firm principle that a rifleman doesn't stop if the guy next to him falls. So when they went on in some corn field or something, they sometimes stepped over their wounded/dead comrades that had been hit earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VicKevlar Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 If Markus gets his medics, I want my mine dogs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megakill Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Initially we had medics (girls in sexy nurse uniforms) and even made animations for them tending wounded. They didn't make into final release unfortunately - we decided that "healing" hitpoints wouldn't be realistic. If you are shot bad - you are out of action. However maybe smth for the addon, as I said that those models and animations have been created. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reichenberg Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Megakill, whatever you say here.... do not mention the nurses and what else you were supposed to do with them Uwe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megakill Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 I will try to dig through our archives and find a nurse screenshot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus86 Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 This could be a nurse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megakill Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Yep. Markus, by any chance are you from our team? )))))))))))))))))))))) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus86 Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Yes, unfortunately I lost my ftp account data for the beta. Could you send it once again? ... just a try Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megakill Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Originally posted by Markus86: Yes, unfortunately I lost my ftp account data for the beta. Could you send it once again? ... just a try No worries, but why spend time on beta - that's booring. I would rather send you Gold Master Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus86 Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 hm okay I learned to be not too megalomaniac ... But if you offer the whole cake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted August 2, 2006 Author Share Posted August 2, 2006 Originally posted by SlowMotion: Should that immediate buddy aid be always automated though? I recently watched an episode of a TV series about Normandy landings. They interviewed a British infantry soldier who took part in an attack in June 1944 near Tilly. He said they had a firm principle that a rifleman doesn't stop if the guy next to him falls. So when they went on in some corn field or something, they sometimes stepped over their wounded/dead comrades that had been hit earlier. Originally posted by Megakill: Initially we had medics (girls in sexy nurse uniforms) and even made animations for them tending wounded. They didn't make into final release unfortunately - we decided that "healing" hitpoints wouldn't be realistic. If you are shot bad - you are out of action. However maybe smth for the addon, as I said that those models and animations have been created. I think there's a misunderstanding re. my inquiry into medic/casualty system. It would suffice if it (buddy aid) was automated. It would not be an absolute but a relative thing, the likeliness that a soldier will help his buddy that just got shot would depend on circunstances just like routing of soldiers under fire is a relative thing (in CC, in CM etc.) When your buddy next to you has a gaping torso wound or gets his arm shot off, will you apply a tourniquet (sp?) or simply let him scream in agony and bleed to death right next to you? I do realize that depending on society/culture, army (Red Army soldiers being less buddy-aid - likely than, on the other extreme, e.g. US Army), army branch (special forces being totally mission-focussed and proffessional vs. the boys from the line infantry that know each other since childhood) and mission requirements a casualty has totally different consequences. [edit: plus its a very individual personal thing of likeliness and capability, too. some people are more inclined and better at it, some less. just like every car driver is supposed to be able to deliver first aid when they stumble across (excuse the pun) an injured person. Some will help him and enable him to survive during the first critical moments, and others are so shy and afraid to do anything wrong that they will simply ignore the situation and drive away (even though thats a crime, statistics tima and again show that many people do).] And even the same buddies in the same squad will show a different behavior depending on the concrete situation in which the casualties are incurred. If it is during close-quarters fighting, or the position is about to be overrun by a horde of enemies, they are likely to keep shooting and not care to the wounded. However, if its a prolonged fire exchange over some time and distance, maybe even between entrenched positions, you bet that any army will require the soldier to apply first aid to his comrade because the situationa allows it -apart from the fact that the soldier will show an inherent urge to help his buddy. Remember the old saying - soldiers dont fight for "the cause", their country or their leader - they foremost fight with and for their buddies. If buddy-aid is micromanaged, fine with me. If casualties are incorporated in a way that even means change of mission target and medevac becomes the new priority, that may go too far but I would be fine with that. (In a modern scenario involving current day forces this would be the only realistic thing to do) But it would be totally sufficient if an automated tendency of soldiers via the individual TacAI scripting makes them tend to their buddies at least for a while after those are being shot, thereby making casualties a more realistic aspect of a wargame such as ToW which has individual soldiers. ... oh, and "smth for the addon" sounds like an ideal universal cop-out to all those pesky requests ... all the best M.Hofbauer [ August 02, 2006, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: M Hofbauer ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 THe original question was never actually answered.. why do small arms have such incredible Armor penetration values? Here are a couple images. M1 Garand 100M: 14mm; 200M: 13mm; 300M: 10mm; 400M: 5mm; 500M: 1mm :eek: P-38 (pistol!) 100M: 4mm; 200M: 4mm; 300M: 1mm There are some serious problems with the numbers behind this game. That's a shame because I really want to like this one... Bil [ August 02, 2006, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: Bil Hardenberger ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMotion Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 If taking care of wounded will be added in some future version I hope it will depend on circumstances like you say. I read your "was automated" that every time a soldier is wounded, 1-2 nearest soldiers are always and instantly taken out of fighting. About that what do when someone gets wounded question - the TV interview said that when infantry was advancing, they sometimes walked over their wounded buddies. And also that some such wounded had then tried to crawl back to own lines, but died before they got far enough or because they got lost. So those "scream in agony and bleed to death" cases that you suggested did happen. The way I understood it this way to handle wounded was agreed on before the attack started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted August 2, 2006 Author Share Posted August 2, 2006 Bil, maybe somebody "in the know" could explain to us just what we are seeing there in the screenshots in the S/M (soldier monitor). Because what we are seeing doesnt make sense either way, it *seems* the Garand can penetrate 14mm armor, but it has a range of only 20 meters...while the P-38 can reach out to 80m. :confused: Clearly there's something wrong, either with that data or with our comprehension/interpretation of the screenshots. Of course *our* our interpretations of what we are seeing, those values, are problematic...sidearms just cant penetrate armor...they didnt even use 9mm "copkiller" projectiles in WWII...the very essence, the technical definition of "armored" means "protected against small arms fire"....and that usually means full-power rifle fire, not sidearm pistol peashooters... 8mm Mauser can penetrate armor...especially when fired from a machine gun, where they will have SmK and SmK L'spur mixed in within the belt. But regular Mauser rifle would use only sS ammo. The regular sS when fired from a K98k bolt-action rifle is no use in the anti-armor role, a machine gun achieves some AP capability with it because it will shoot in bursts which at close range tends to produce repeated hits in quick succession onto a small area which will compromise structural integrity of the metal...but the real AP work would be done by the SmK cartridges in the beltmix. It would take special SmK(H) ammo for anti-armor work ! it would surprise me if the whole concept of ballistic performance of small-to-medium caliber projectiles was news to 1C ... after all, they prided themselves to model that in IL2, admittedly with some success (even tho personally I found the performance of some of the weapons to be off in some instances, they *have to be* credited with introducing at all a structural plane model and a ballistic model for the guns !) btw: the 30-06 Springfield cartridge 7.62x63 existed (and exists!) in a wide variety of versions; the one used in the Garand was the .30-06 M2, with its Eo of 3545 Joule and its 9.7g projectile its slightly less than regular 7.92x57 Mauser sS ammo... and why the same 9x19 Parabellum ammo when fired from a VIS 1935 penetrates 5mm yet only 4mm when fired from a P.38 makes no sense at all, the VIS 1935 is rated with a lower Vo than the P.38 (the P.38 has a decidedly longer barrel than the VIS 1935 (125mm vs 117/119mm). There realworld ballistic/penetration data for the 9x19 when fired from the P.38 at Vo=355m/s is : total range 1600m; penetration at 50m into pinewood 230mm; sand: 250mm; non-compacted, loose earth: 350mm; 2mm sheet metal penetrated at 50m and out to 200m; 2mm armor plate: no go, only dented. 9mm isnt something exotic. I bet many of you here on the board, especially those in the US, have access to or own a 9mm handgun. If anyone of those can do 5mm armor plate with it please report, I would be very interested to hear. I'm serious. BTS/1C please fix or do sumfink*. cheerio, M.Hofbauer edit: to add to the confusion by adding even more numbers. p.s.: "sumfink" as in please explain what we are seeing in the screenshots. [ August 02, 2006, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: M Hofbauer ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Well, according to this thread they are fixing the ranges (hopefully that will apply across the board, not just to long range weapons)... however, no word on the out of whack AP values and their status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melnibone Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Originally posted by M Hofbauer: Because what we are seeing doesnt make sense either way, it *seems* the Garand can penetrate 14mm armor, but it has a range of only 20 meters...while the P-38 can reach out to 80m. :confused: I assumed that was the distance of their current target, not their maximum range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megakill Posted August 3, 2006 Share Posted August 3, 2006 Guys these panels are work-in-progress. Plus we have BF guys carefully watching our backs. There will be no fancy situations when a pistol round will pentrate an armoured car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted August 3, 2006 Share Posted August 3, 2006 Originally posted by Megakill: There will be no fancy situations when a pistol round will pentrate an armoured car. Not even when the soldier is named John Wayne? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megakill Posted August 3, 2006 Share Posted August 3, 2006 Originally posted by RMC: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Megakill: There will be no fancy situations when a pistol round will pentrate an armoured car. Not even when the soldier is named John Wayne? </font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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