Waterloo 1815 - NEED INPUT FROM YOU GUYS!

[Kuniworth]

Soon this one will be ready, it's a game of manouveur, with brigade and some battalion sized units. It aims to be historical with córrect OOB and command ratings.

It's intended for fast play, Napoleon must simply break Wellington's entrenched line before the prussians come into play and slowly turn the tide.

In this picture we can see the french advance on Le Haye Saint and Hougoumont farms with the english line entrenched on the ridge further north. Note the historical sandpit just right of Le Haye Saint which have the same defence-bonus as the crest of the ridge.

[ November 09, 2006, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: Kuniworth ]

[n0kn0k]

Cool

[Retributar]

A bold undertaking Kuniworth!, If 'The Battle of Waterloo'had not been pre-empted by such a heavy rain the night before, the battle would have started much earlier the following day, instead it started at something like around noon-time!.

If it had started earlier, the Prussian's could not have arrived in such good time so as to decide the battle!.

[Hubert Cater]

That looks so nice, great job

[JerseyJohn]

Kuni,

Great job on the battle. Looking forward to playing it.

Retributar,

Excellent point.

Also,

If it hadn't rained the night before, making the ground soft and muddy the following day, the French artillery would have been much more effective. As it was the volleys did a lot of damage, except to the units Wellingon placed on the rear side of ridges. But with the ground hard it would have been devastating.

-- Then there was Napoleon having a bad health day and Ney conducting most of the attacks. I think Ney was clearly irrational, probably gone mad after Russia. He demonstrated that both on the field here and also after Quatra Bras when, instead of following up his tactical victory and keeping Welington off balance he personally carried a captured flag back to Napoleon's HQ, allowing the Anglo/Allies to organize, unhindered, south of Brussels.

I'd love to see a full campaign game of Napoleon moving north out of France. One with an option of the French having that missing corps (4th?) that ignored it's march orders because it was commanded by royalists. If he'd have been on top of things, that would have been the place where Ney would have done some good, he could have been sent to that corps, the army's greatest hero, and they'd have rallied to him.

[Kuniworth]

Guys I have some questions I would hope you could share your view upon;

1. I feel that there is a risk that both player will mass there forces into one big pile to get an advantage over the opponent. Maybe victory objectives should be spread out more for the british(right now it's mont st.jean and ferme mont.st jean in the rear british center) and also include the flanks? Hougoumont, La Haye Sainte and Papelotte farms are at the moment included as fortresses(strongpoints) instead of victory objectives. Any thoughts on this and how to make the battle more similar to napoleonic wars?

2. How to treat cavalry? They should be bad in terrain like forests and swaps but otherwise? Unfortunately there is no way in SC2 to simulate infantry forming squares so either cavalry is good against infantry or they are not. What do you think I should go for?

3. Fields are included and slows movement(due to the mud) plus it makes the unit more vunerable to cavalry and infantry attacks. You think this is ok?

4. Spotting, how far should units be able to spot the enemy? Problem with sc2 is that units "see through" woods, over ridges etc, so if they can see to far there will be no surprises. On the other hand if you make it 1-2 tiles they can spot than there is no chance artillery can attack targets at historical range.

5. Range of attacks; As I see it Cavalry should be a close combat unit with range 1(although some carried guns) and artillery s of cours long range. But how about infantry, I think 2 tiles might work but that pretty much makes the strong-points useless as players can attack them and destroy the defender at range without ever losing something in the process. I think infantry should have an attack-range of 1 because of this, what do you think?

6. At Waterloo, canister fire was a killer while the heavy long range french guns were ineffective due to mud. What is the best way to simulate this - should artillery be effective or not? I'm leaning on artillery beeing a good weapon after all since it more or less crushed the Bijlandt brigade and destroyed a lot of french infantry at Hougoumont(Bull's howitzers) and helped stop the assault by garde imperiale 7.30 pm.

7. Forest should hinder movement. But how large should the penalty be? Eg Should artillery be able to move through woods?

8. Movement; If infantry has a movement of 2, Cavalry 3 and artillery 2 would that be ok? Maybe the movement points should be more but I'm afraid that it would be too easy for a player to shift his whole force from one crtical spot to another in one move,from one flank of the battlefield to the other too quickly = players will just put all his units in a "big pile". What do you think?

Any other comments?

[Retributar]

Some of your question's will need to be answered by 'Hubert Cater' , & up to him to make the design-changes to allow for simulation's in different time period's!.

Now, it's been forever since i studied 'Waterloo', but i will try to do my best!.

#1. To control those 'Strong-Points' is to a great degree, to be able to have control or have influence over the Entire-Battle-Field, and so to some extent control over these 'Strong-Points' should "UP!" the bonuses [Morale or what-ever to increase the Combat Results in favor of the Controlling Player] ...that would in-effect...incorporate the 'Bonus-Effect' to the controlling player to assist their side to help them win the Battle!.

#2. This is up to 'Hubert' to find a solution to the Square Vrs. Cavalry situation!. Infantry not formed into Square's of course should be quite or reasonably vulnerable to a Cavalry-Attack!.

#3. Mud is Mud for everyone, including Cavalry, i was not aware that Horse-Cavalry was exempt from the effect's of 'Mud!'.

#4. 'Spotting!', another 'Hubert' fix is required here!. Look's like we need a 'Line-Of-Sight-Fix!'.

#5. Your sort of right over-all, but all i can tell you is that massed volley's of fire-arms was sort of effective at 300 ft or Yard's? and was quite effective at 150 ft or Yard's?.

#6. Yes, MUD should blunt the effectiveness of long-range-Artillery[Cannon-Ball], but as the day would wear on, the ground would dry, thus allowing Artillery to then be more effective!.

Air-Burst-Canister grenade like shot [Probably a closer range ammunition???] would not suffer the nullifying effect's of Mud like Cannon Balls Would. Not only do Cannon-Ball's tear up the Earth and throw hard chunks of earth and throw stones around that kill people, but they also bounce on the ground, dismembering the victim's in their path if not killing them outright!.

#7. Yes forest's should Hinder movement, and i personally would not allow artillery to move through them unless there was a low-level path-way at least to allow minimal movement!.

[Lars]

Easiest is to look at what other designers have done. Modify as needed.

Good start here

http://www.alanemrich.com/PGD/Week_03/PGD_NAW_rules.htm

And you can search for more here

http://grognard.com/board.html#n107

[Kuniworth]

Ok here are the latest pics. Scenario should be ready very soon.

I will do a playtest game with Jersey before the release but so far units are complete as well as most of the terrain and resources. What I would like to have are roads like the ones Fantomas have created.

Some facts;

* There will be 28 turns in total each representing 20 minutes of real time.

* Brigade sized units with some regiments.

* Leader ratings 1-5

* Victory objectives are Le Haie, Papelotte, Mont St. Jean, Hougoumont, Plancenoit, La Belle Alliance.

Here are the war map;