Console version of CMxx?

[Dawg Bonz]

Has BFC every considered doing a console version of their CM games? I don't know squat about the game console business. I don't own a console and have never played on one. The reason I ask is the new Sony PS3 to be released Spring, 2006 has some very impressive specs. We will need a full HD capable DVD player and getting the PS3 would do that as well.

We were able to save our new HDTV from the post KATRINA looting. Neighbors a few houses over lost Two - 45" Plasma screens... and the next door all their jewelry.. and etc. through the rest of our street.

Anyway... or HDTV-LCD can display 1080p images! CMSF at this resolution in Dolby 5.1 using the PS3 would be stunning. I did hook up a DVI-I cable and played CM(BO-BB-AK) on the LCD and it was very nice. Due to the limitations of my 32MB graphics card I can't get wild with the resolution and it does not fill the screen completely.

Asking because I know nuttin bout game consoles.

Dawg... thinking a PS3 at 1.8 TFLOPS floating point performance, at full HD (1080p), would earn my Franklins.

[Schrullenhaft]

While the new XBox 360 and PS3 sound like great consoles to develop for with all of their CPU and video horsepower, BFC probably will never develop for them with the way the console business works. Since BFC eschews the current distribution model of computer gaming software (where the developer gets compensated a few bucks out of the $30-65 retail price of a title), the console business model is just as bad if not worse.

First off you need to get special hardware and/or software from the console manufacturer to develop your title with. Then there's the licensing costs to develop a title (and basically get support from the console manufacturer) and then there's the per copy licensing that the console manufacturer charges. All of the licensing fees are pretty hefty and completely chew up the profit margin and often the operating costs to develop a title. Unless you see sales approaching or exceeding a million on a console, then as a developer you may not make hardly anything or possibly only cover your costs (or worse). On top of this is how your distributor takes a bit of the "money train" (this is where standard PC/Mac game software development comes in). This is why small developers end up selling out to some distributors - they don't make much for all of their labor (or the 'franchising fees for a major sport/movie are too high for them, etc.). So putting yourself higher up the food/money chain just helps in terms of developing titles and actually getting paid decently for them. Thus you have part of the reason for the repetitive "me-too" type of development on consoles since developers are aiming for that "one million titles sold" type of sales and most of them are convinced that there is a certain type of "play" that teenage/young adult males will flock to with their cash.

Console manufacturers typically don't make any margin at all on the hardware that they sell. Instead the profits are in the licensing fees that they charge developers and their per-copy sales.

[Dawg Bonz]

Thanks Schrullenhaftt. Your explanation is appreciated and makes it clear why BFC uses the business plan they do. I did not realize how little margin there is in the entire console deal. It makes sense that the consoles are a non-profit item for the manufacturers when you see the PS3 specifications. A 3.2GHz Cell processor with @ 234 million transistors, a massive 550MHz, 300-million-transistor graphics chip based on next-generation GeForce graphics technology…a pipeline count @ 24…just a slightly larger fill rate than two GeForce 6800 Ultras clocked at 400MHz….a front-slot-loading Blu-ray optical disc drive, six USB ports, a memory stick, compact flash, and SD readers…each Blu-ray disc can hold up to 54GB worth of data…three Gigabit Ethernet ports (1 x input, 2 x output) and built-in 802.11 b/g wireless connectivity.. 1080p over two separate HDMI outputs…. The list goes on. Target price = about the cost of an extreme game video card. It is truly amazing how much game potential the consoles have. It is a shame solid company like BFC can’t use that potential w/o taking a financial bath. CMSF in 1080p on our LCD / HDTV would be fantastic. I like the BFC CM1 product. I am sure CM2 will be better. Hope my wife’s 20” iMac G5 - 2.0 GHz with 128mb of video ram works fine for the new CMSF.

Peace, Dawg no longer in the dark re: da console food chain

[Dawg Bonz]

What type of CPU/GPU would be required for CMSF in 1080p on a big screen LCD / HDTV :confused:

Thanks

Dawg … eyes right

[Hpt. Lisse]

Hmm, you'd probably hit the screen via VGA input using a widescreen resolution (like 1366x768.) However, I don't know if CM supports those non-standard resolutions or not... But it doesn't take a killer rig/vid card to get that rolling (depending on the size of battle/AA & AF involved.)

There are hardly any plasma/LCD's out there that will give you true 1080p anyway (that's 1920x1080) without interpolation - using some kind of scaler to average the pixels out to match the screen's true resolution. You'd basically have to be running a SONY SXRD to achieve that...

[ January 03, 2006, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: Hpt. Lisse ]

[Dawg Bonz]

Thanks Hpt. Lisse

Here is my set up: Connected my G4 to Sharp - LC45GD4U - HDTV via the DVI-I input for PCs. CM played at 1280x1024 off my 32MB - PCI - ATI video card. This is the only card I have for my G4 that plays CM (due to the Apple-Rage support issues). Sharp says SXGA 1280x1024 is the max PC signal accepted on the DVI input. The odd part is I am only supposed to be able to see XGA 1024x768 as the max "Mac" signal but I can see 1280x1024 with 32MB!

I realize the 1600x1200 limit with CM1. I am wondering what might be required for a 1080p CMSF?

BTW: We only just received the Sharp - LC45GD4U the week before KATRINA! After checking the 1st week looters, evacuating and then returning before the water was pumped out, we saved the HDTV (and other valuables) before all the water was out.... long, long story.

Anyway...

re: "true 1080p" ...... the LC45GD4U - TFT (thin film transistor) active matrix dot count = 6,220,800 dots [1,920 (H) x 1,080 (V) x RGB]. I am pretty certain the LC45GD4U can display 1080p24, 1080p25, 1080p30 but I don't have any way to provide it with that kinda bandwidth yet.

Our current cable provider COX is back up (still no land phone service, or local groceries, or etc.) in post KATRINA New Orleans but is only broadcasting 720p, and 1080i signals. Maybe when Sony's PS3 arrives I can test out some games and true 1080p?

Thanks,

Dawg... football bound hound tonight

BTW: Nvidia--which designed the RSX for Sony--claimed that the PS3's - RSX GPU- was as powerful as two Nvidia GeForce 6800 Ultra cards! The PS3 will soon be pumping out 1080p. You can see why the PS3 will be a 'home run' for many HDTV folks looking for a Blu-ray Disc player.

"Due to bandwidth limitations of broadcast frequencies, the ATSC and DVB have standardized only the frame rates of 24, 25, and 30 frames per second (1080p24, 1080p25, 1080p30). 1080p30 is currently the most bandwidth-intensive video mode supported by the ATSC."

[Hpt. Lisse]

Yes, your Sharp should display true 1080. Those frames rates are appropriate (24 fps = film, 25 fps PAL video, 30 fps US (drop frame)). Right now, a few video engineer buddies and I (it's my job) are having some discussions (arguements) about input selections (like HDMI vs. DVI, etc.)

Stand by...

[Dawg Bonz]

Thanks Hpt. Lisse Ingenieur. Looking forward to your advice on PC to LC45GD4U - HDMI vs. DVI hookup. It would seem that the Sharp LCD should accept whatever the DVI or HDMI can feed it no matter if it is from a PC, console, DVR, Blu-ray Disc player, etc. . If you can feed it 6,220,800 dots [1,920 (H) x 1,080 (V) x RGB] then it should display it. No scaling required.

Seems like a pair of 7800 GTX 512MB with 24 pipelines and 8 vertex shaders core/memory clock speed of 550MHz/1700MHz respectively and 512MB of GDDR3 memory... plugged into a MOBO with PCI express x 16 would work but then we can't afford another loan for a game PC right now.

Dawg ... off to more Russian Training Exercises .. Thanks Jason.

[Hpt. Lisse]

...and this is the thrust of it: Would you rather lock-in a game at a video-based 1080p format (30 fps) than let the GPU hit the DVI at 1920x1080 and see what frame rates the PS3 (or whatever the source) can cough up? Would the 1080p standard offer better color in the image? What's going on between the GPU and the digital HD processing unit? Blu-Ray to HDMI may not (as in playing a DVD) involve the GPU directly, but playing a game will... and of course, just because the HDMI is sending 1080p format, doesn't necessarily mean that a "guaranteed" 30fps of gaming godness is being generated, depending on how busy the action is on-screen...

We are at a unique place, where video signal/resolutions are roughly equivalent to computer signals... it's changing Vid. Eng. on a monthly basis. I'll post more as I find more out. Basically, what my buddies and I would want to do is hook up your Sharp both ways and play something, and see what works best...

[Dawg Bonz]

Thanks Hpt. Lisse

I am guessing here but... I suspect the Sharp DVI input won't take an external scaler signal beyond 1080p30 because now (1/06) 1080p30 is the maximum ATSC signal. The sharpest images and best colors may be from the DVI-PC input if you can get a 'handshake". The published limit is 1280x1024 but maybe a firmware update could fix that? After all, if you got the SLI - GPU(s) to pump 1920x1080 to the DVI input the BIG LCD (Sharp) SHOULD take the signal.... shouldn't it?

HDMI: I suspect Sony has plans for PS3 to send 1080p60 thru the HDMI to the LCD. I think I read that they are setting this as a requirement for PS3 game developers. If that is the case, assuming you got enough SLI - GPU(s) to pump 1920x1080, maybe an end around is with a DVI to HDMI cable from the PC? I just don't have a clue what the GPU requirements might be for filling 6,220,800 dots [1,920 (H) x 1,080 (V) x RGB] of gaming goodness.

Off to another fine dinner cooked by my lovely wife in a post KATRINA New Orleans that now has 191/451 = 42% of our traffic lights back on line! Hey... for 4+ months after that witch of a storm... little things are greatly appreciated.

Ciao,

Dawgo

[Hpt. Lisse]

No, that's the difference between a locked "video signal" and a DVI computer sinal. In theory, the 1080p won't exceed 30fps due to the standard. But an ass-kicking vid card setup may be able to do better than that, limited only by the A)refresh rate, and B)the millisecond response time of the Sharp (that Sony WEGA SXRD had a fast 5ms response time.) In other words, the Sharp shouldn't read that DVI signal as a 1080p video signal, it's just gonna say, "ho, here's 1920x1080 res. computer signal, let's slap it up and refresh it as fast as we can." That's assuming the Sharp will do that (no reason to think it wouldn't.)

Does that clarify it at all?

[Dawg Bonz]

Thanks again for the feedback Hpt. Lisse. Long busy sheet rockn'roll weekend here in post K New Orleans.

Here is what I did find out re: 1080p video signals to the HDTV. My 45-inch AQUOS (LC-45GD4U) uses Sharp’s proprietary advanced CV-IC System III video processing circuit to upconvert 1080i (interlaced) and 720p signals to a finer image. IOW "Progressive scanning (line doubling)"

Not technically a false advertisement from Sharp as it DOES 'display' 1080p. What Sharp does not tell you is the sets do not accept 1080p signals directly: the max they accept is 1080i and then Sharp processor sends 1080p to the panel. IOW: This is not a 'plug and play' computer monitor. So while the LC45's display 1080p, they do NOT accept 1080p INPUTS. There is a way to bypass this limitation with the GX series, but not with the GDs... the model we saved from da KATRINA looters.

Nonetheless,the 45-inch AQUOS panel does a very good job to resolve the 1,920x1,080 resolution. I suspect is a slight loss of detail caused by the internal scalar but I do not have the equipment or experience to test this. Since the upscale conversion is from 1080i signal to a 1080p display, i suspect any upscale degradation of signal is small. I can say I am happy with what I see and the HDTV signals (720P, 1080i) I currently get from HD cable. Everyone viewing the screen has also been impressed with the image quality. 1080i should be fine for the next 5 years.

Combining the higher resolution of 1080 with the greater refresh rate of progressive, 1080p is very data-dense and will soak up even greater broadcast bandwidth. Broadcasters ask if the 1080p format provides enough incremental picture quality to warrant the bandwidth and other cost content providers pay for.

That starts with the video produced from 1080p cameras. At present, 720p and 1080i cameras output video at about 1.5 Gbps, but 1080p would roughly double that to 3 Gbps. Then you have to convert that into a standard 19.4 Megabit per second channel for transmission across a cable network. 1080p would likely require greater compression or greater bandwidth. Unless there is some kind of easy to spot jump-in experience (in the consumer show room) a real significant jump-in quality I suspect broadcasters are gonna stick with the current 6 HDTV formats for the short term. Bandwidth is a very valuable commodity.

Since we had to invest in a new BIG screen (our 13 year old CRT died just before the storm) I think we will be OK for a few years to come. The next generation of 1080p displays will more than likely have 1080p capable digital inputs. It is a bit troubling we early adopters that drive the industry are the ones who get burnt. Make sure your new 1080p display is able to accept a 1080p input signal.

Anyway... Back to CMSF and 1080p and console games. I am certain the PS3 or Xbox 360 would look great on this 45" LCD using Sharp’s video processing circuit. I suspect BFC knows all about these scaling issues for PCs and the new HDTVs. As time passes, our credit card balance drops (paying off the Sharp) and CPU/GPU upgrade time rolls around a new 23" LCD will arrive for true 1080P signal. My wife would prefer this as well to all the in games audio in the living room. "Boom -Boom"

Of course the biggest factor for us now is real Cat. 3 levees. "If the levees had not broken, they could have all walked home from the Super Dome." Governor Blanco.

Peace and Happy Gaming,

Dawg ... read beans and rice is mighty nice on Monday :cool:

BTW: I did read of one Sharp owner using a 15" powerbook to the input 4, DVI->HDMI to get a full screen picture in 1080i, not 1080p on his LC-45GX6U.

[Madmatt]

Just to throw in some more info, the original question was have we given consideration to making console versions of our games?

YES...

What did we decide?

WAIT AND SEE...

Madmatt

[Dawg Bonz]

3 Woofs from a Dawg in a post Katrina Big Easy.

Thanks for the back scratch Madmatt

Dawg... smellin da chicken in da kitchen... that means 'white' tonight

[Dawg Bonz]

OK Madmatt... given consideration to making console versions of our games?

I waited 2 days. Is that long enough?

Hmmm .. "our games" ? So maybe a CMx1 console version? Darn.. That could easily be a CMBO for PS3... then BB for PS3... then AK for PS3.. then... etc. :confused:

If Apple can switch to Intel maybe BFC (or a BFC partnership with XXX) will provide a simultaneous PC / Console launch of CMSF? I would buy a console for your guys games alone... already got the HDTV that can 'display' 1080p.

Dawg ... giving consideration to console versions of BFC games

[Hpt. Lisse]

Interesting on the Powerbook DVI>HDMI thing... The fact that the HDMI bandwidth can handle more than 5Gbps will help out on the home front, though people may be surprised when the HDMI input processor won't allow bootlegged DVD images through... My apologies, I missed that bit about the highest res. (published, anyway) for your screen being 1280x1024 you mentioned ealier.

We have to remember, too, that not all scalers are created equal, just like the various forms of compression can differ in quality.

Wow, a console version of CM for the masses. Who would of ever thought...

[Dawg Bonz]

It looks fine at 1280x1024 but of course I would like the Sharp to accept a true 1080p signal not scale it up to a 1080p display. Don't get me wrong, the scaler IMO does a great job. The 720p football on ESPN looks outstanding but .. wondering if a 'firmware' fix could bump up the highest screen resolution via DVI? There is a firmware port on the Sharp.

Now ...a console version of CM for the masses... Well that would certainly get me in line for a PS3 or Xbox 360.

WAIT AND SEE...

Madmatt

OK .. Four long days... nuff yet?

Dawg ... off to run in the sun with my fido for fun :cool:

[Sergei]

Previously I'd have assumed that the Hell would freeze over sooner than BFC would start publishing console games.

After MadMatt's hint, should I die I want to be buried wearing a furcoat.

[Schrullenhaft]

One thing to consider with Madmatt's post. The console games may not be CMx1 games or even CMx2. Instead it may be some other game that they're distributing.

[Dawg Bonz]

Maybe "Space Lobsters of Doom" ... 'Final Claw'?

The most likely (IMO) PC / Console release candidate is DropTeam.. a TBG Software game in development to published by Battlefront.com.

"BELIEVABLE COMBAT

DropTeam depicts futuristic armored combat in a believable way that doesn't insult the intelligence of mature gamers. We eschew such misguided, entrenched mechanisms as "hit points", "healing", and unexplainably short weapon ranges that are found in many games today. Instead, weapons have specific effects on their targets. For example, a projectile that penetrates a vehicle’s armor might disable its engine, kill individual crew members, damage the ballistics computer, etc. Most weapons have effective ranges in excess of 4 kilometers."

APPEAL

DropTeam is unique in that it strikes a balance between realistic, tactical combat simulation and pure, accessible fun for the novice. It will be enjoyed both by hardened grognards as well as by more casual “twitch” gamers who are more interested in “run and gun” game play. Its layered complexity allows for a wide range of play styles and tactics, so a vibrant user community is expected. DropTeam will also offer a steady stream of new content to players over time, thanks to its highly extensible architecture. Finally, DropTeam is a truly cross-platform game! Both its server and its client run on Windows, Linux, and Mac OS-X. This will no doubt lead to a broad, diverse and vibrant fan community.

....and lots of other good console like stuff.......

Madmatt, 6 days in the desert of darkness... a drop of water for these console dry Bonz... cough... sputter...

Dawg... My neighbor just got his FEMA trailer today 172 days after KATRINA! Now they ain't got no electric, sewer, water, to actually live in the trailer but... the FEMA guys said... it is on the 'fast track.. like the trailer'. Hmm.. that would mean power et. al by July 8th 2006.. a month + into hurricane season. :mad:

[blassty]

i would assume the job of porting it would be left to some other company. but i just can't see this being a success on a console, as these platforms are meant for a different market.

[Dawg Bonz]

" It will be enjoyed both by hardened grognards as well as by more casual “twitch” gamers who are more interested in “run and gun” game play." Seems like that would work? My twitch is a bit lacking but my hardened grognard skill... well dat is a bit lacking as well but playing the game with friends as a team should be a hoot.

Dawg... in da Wonka Factory