ATGMs

[Holo]

Sorry if this was already mentioned, but I was wondering how the different anti-tank missile systems will be treated in the game? For example, Kornet is laser beam-riding guidance system, Milan is wire-guided and Javelin is fire and forget system. So (correct me if I'm wrong, since I'm no weapons expert), when Kornet or Milan are fired, the operator only needs to spot the target, to fire a missile, but then he has to guide it to the target, whereas (as I understand), Javelin team must track vehicle for a couple of seconds, lock on it and fire, but then can immediately relocate. Also, will we be able to choose between direct/top attack modes, for systems that have these modes?

One more thing related to ATGMs – how the tanks will react when targeted by laser beams?

[hellfish]

Most American vehicles don't have a laser warning system (unless this has changed very recently). I think the Marines tried it out on their M1A1s during OIF1 but I haven't seen them on Marine tanks since.

I think only China and Israel have deployed such a system in significant numbers, and even then only on tanks.

[Battlefront.com]

We are treating the different types as one would expect. It basically breaks down to just three types, with variables that can be tweeked to get different behaviors (such as accuracy, chance of failure, etc.):

LOS - must have LOS between shooter and target for the entire flight of the missile. Sagger and Milan fit into this category, as do the first generation TOW missiles.

Fire and Forget (unguided) - must have LOS only when missile is launched. This would include RPG-7, AT-4, etc.

Fire and Forget (guided) - same as above, but far different results since the missile homes in on the target. Javelin and TOW2 Fire and Forget fit into this category.

We do not know how detailed we can get with high tech doodads like lasers. At the very least we would like to be able to simulate laser "scatter" due to smoke and dust. But we shall have to see!

Steve

[Holo]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

We are treating the different types as one would expect. It basically breaks down to just three types, with variables that can be tweeked to get different behaviors (such as accuracy, chance of failure, etc.):

LOS - must have LOS between shooter and target for the entire flight of the missile. Sagger and Milan fit into this category, as do the first generation TOW missiles.

Fire and Forget (unguided) - must have LOS only when missile is launched. This would include RPG-7, AT-4, etc.

Fire and Forget (guided) - same as above, but far different results since the missile homes in on the target. Javelin and TOW2 Fire and Forget fit into this category.

We do not know how detailed we can get with high tech doodads like lasers. At the very least we would like to be able to simulate laser "scatter" due to smoke and dust. But we shall have to see!

Steve

You got me confused here. I thought that TOW-FF program was canceled in 2002 (or my data is old). I presumed that US Army is using either TOW-2A (direct attack) or TOW-2B "flyover shoot down" top attack mode missiles, but they are both wire guided.

You haven't answered me about switching between direct (bunker busting) and top attack (tank busting) mode, for Javelin system for example.

About the lasers, does this mean that Kornet system will not make it into the game?

[ August 11, 2006, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: Holo ]

[Holo]

Originally posted by fytinghellfish:

Most American vehicles don't have a laser warning system (unless this has changed very recently). I think the Marines tried it out on their M1A1s during OIF1 but I haven't seen them on Marine tanks since.

Has it been found that it's not usefull enough or what?

I think only China and Israel have deployed such a system in significant numbers, and even then only on tanks.

I thought that Russians were using their Shtora-1 counter measures system along with laser warning packages on more than just T-90. Am I wrong?

[Battlefront.com]

Crap, thanks for the reminder of TOW fire and forget getting the axe. I got a sneak peak at a trainer back in (thinks carefully) 2001 and I guess that's stuck in my head. But now come to think of it, it got the axe. Haven't researched TOWs yet so will figure it all out in good time.

There will be a mini AI routine for Javelin to decide whether to go direct or top attack. Right now it just uses the default mode, which is top attack. Fun to watch that sucker go. We even have animations that show the CLU being taken off the tube and put onto a new tube. Right now the Javelin has unlimitted ammo so at the moment it's a tad bit more potent than it should be

About the lasers, does this mean that Kornet system will not make it into the game?

Not at all. There are laser systems all over the place in the game already. All I was saying is that we're not going to worry about adverse situations for lasers until later on. Too many big things to concentrate on right now, like wrapping up Air Support for example.

And yes, the Russians do have a number of laser warning and counter measure systems. You won't see them in CM:SF, though, because Assad couldn't come up with the cash needed to get fancy toys like that. Once the Soviet Union changed management teams, they changed their payment terms from credit to cash and carry only. Or close enough to it!

Steve

[hellfish]

Originally posted by Holo:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by fytinghellfish:

Most American vehicles don't have a laser warning system (unless this has changed very recently). I think the Marines tried it out on their M1A1s during OIF1 but I haven't seen them on Marine tanks since.

Has it been found that it's not usefull enough or what?

Hasn't been a threat to justify the price yet.

I think only China and Israel have deployed such a system in significant numbers, and even then only on tanks.

I thought that Russians were using their Shtora-1 counter measures system along with laser warning packages on more than just T-90. Am I wrong? </font>

[Holo]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

There will be a mini AI routine for Javelin to decide whether to go direct or top attack. Right now it just uses the default mode, which is top attack. Fun to watch that sucker go. We even have animations that show the CLU being taken off the tube and put onto a new tube. Right now the Javelin has unlimitted ammo so at the moment it's a tad bit more potent than it should be

This I like, since I am of the sneaky gaming bunch that likes to stalk the armour with ATGM's

Since we're on the subject of guided missiles do you know (or anybody else) if US Army started to use any of more advanced guided 120mm munition types like TERM, STAFF and X-ROD, and if it had, will it make it into the game?

[Battlefront.com]

As far as I know they are not in use, though I could be mistaken there. The counter arguments I've read state that the "dumb" munitions are practically as good so why spend sooooooo much more for a single round that only performs marginally better. My understanding is this is what killed off Copperhead.

Steve

[Holo]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

The counter arguments I've read state that the "dumb" munitions are practically as good so why spend sooooooo much more for a single round that only performs marginally better.

Steve

The reason I ask that is that although (as it seems) all of the programs I've mentioned are canceled, it seems to me that sooner or later there will be some variant of guided munition fielded for beyond LOS capability (8km ranges are mentioned), so although it may not have much of the impact in game like CM:SF, maybe in some other CMx2 game/module it will (I can clearly picture in my head UAV way up front spotting T-90 or Type 98, and M1A2 firing from 6-7km

[dan/california]

See this link, very much what you are talking about and in active late stage development.

http://www.strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/2-16551.asp

[Battlefront.com]

Dan, that is a different type of munition altogether. Also note that it is part of the FCS program, and therefore isn't projected to see the light of day for another 10 years. Sounds like it might be ready long before then, but I think we're still talking about years before it is deployed. Not only do they have to get the munition itself fit for combat, but they also have to come up with retrofit guidence/firing systems for the platform (in this case an Abrams). And for all we know the test was as good as all those "successful" tests of the Sgt. York

Steve

[Holo]

Originally posted by dan/california:

See this link, very much what you are talking about and in active late stage development.

http://www.strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/2-16551.asp

Thanks for link, I hope that some of the development mentioned here will make into the at least some future CMx2 game, and that we won't have to wait for FCS to be fully deployed to see it in the game.

[Battlefront.com]

Holo, our rule of thumb is that if it looks like something will be in use (for real, in the field) by early 2007 we will include it. If not, it won't go in. We aren't interested in putting in things just because they are cool and/or interesting from a simulation standpoint (the two can sometimes be different )

Steve

[dan/california]

I just read that guided 155 is being issued in a least small quantities starting now more or less. The proving ground guys said it didn't work well in seriously(0F) cold weather and the guys in Iraq said "so we care about that why".

I think the 120mm PGMM is close behind, any opinion on either system for the first module? I think the 120mm PGMM really represents a huge increase in capability since it is organic to most U.S. battalions.

[hellfish]

The Excalibur GPS guided 155mm round is now being fielded, I think.

[flamingknives]

Originally posted by dan/california:

I just read that guided 155 is being issued in a least small quantities starting now more or less. The proving ground guys said it didn't work well in seriously(0F) cold weather and the guys in Iraq said "so we care about that why".

And the guys in Afghanistan are saying "We'll keep in warm, wrap it in blankets, whatever, just give it to us!"

Plus GPS guided MLRS is in service.

200lb warhead, 70km range, CEP 10m.

BOOM!

[Holo]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Holo, our rule of thumb is that if it looks like something will be in use (for real, in the field) by early 2007 we will include it. If not, it won't go in.

Steve

I agree, that's only fair, and although I didn't have in mind specifically CM:SF for all that nice guided thingies, it seems (as I see from the other posts) that at least some of the guided ammo is being fielded now, so....

And, naturaly, I don't expect to see in CM:SF Chinese tank self-defense high-powered laser that directly attacks enemy ATGM's optics and gunner's eyes, just because it's :cool: , but I am hoping that I will see it in some future instance of CMx2 games (as well as full squad of OFW's on the very same battlefield).

[ August 14, 2006, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: Holo ]

[Battlefront.com]

Thanks fytinghellfish!

This is the sort of surprise we hate Last time I checked in on this it was still years away from happening, but apparently they pulled out all the stops and first production units are 3 YEARS ahead of schedule.

Looks like 500 shells are planned to be over in Iraq in FY 2006, with the first ones (apparently) being delivered right now. One tidit I read said that there were still some bugs in it, but that was dated a few months ago so perhaps that has been overcome.

Note that the cost per round is $80,000! Ouch!

Steve

[dan/california]

If the general on the ground calls the Pentagon and explains how someone has the choice of commanding and under-strength convoy escort in Anbar Province or getting something done now, today. At least some of the time they get it done.

It also says a lot about how effective they think it will be. And a dead enemy with no collateral damage is the next best thing to priceless.

Given the increased effectiveness the Russian laser guided stuff is demonstrating in Lebanon is there a new push yet for counter measures?

[ August 14, 2006, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: dan/california ]

[hellfish]

I wouldn't want "bugs" in the artillery rounds I'm calling in danger close.

[dan/california]

The primary bug is that they don't work well in truly cold weather.

It is the same reason ski bindings are still strange spring loaded thing. Batteries really do not like to be cold.

The guys in Iraq so wish they had that problem.

[Battlefront.com]

Dan,

Given the increased effectiveness the Russian laser guided stuff is demonstrating in Lebanon is there a new push yet for counter measures?

Oh, I am sure there is a renewed push. Perhaps they can dust off some of the development stuff that was shelved during the 1990s. The question is how soon will these systems get into the field, then we have to find out what they can do.

There has been an amazing amount of counter devices put into the field within the last two years, along with a ton of MOUT specific innovations. Things like PROPHET, Bread Crumbs, minature UAVs, PACKBOT, and all sorts of things with funny names and classified specs Some we aren't simulating at all, some are getting direct treatment, some indirect treatment. There is just SO MUCH STUFF going on it is nearly impossible for us to keep up with it, not to mention getting it coded and working correctly.

Steve

[hellfish]

Its official: AT-5s and AT-14s

Beyond no-man's land, in the east of the village, was evidence of Syrian-supplied hardware. In a garden next to a junction used as an outpost by Hizbollah lay eight Kornet anti-tank rockets, described by Brig Mickey Edelstein, the commander of the Nahal troops who took Ghandouriyeh, as "some of the best in the world".

Written underneath a contract number on each casing were the words: "Customer: Ministry of Defence of Syria. Supplier: KBP, Tula, Russia."

Brig Edelstein said: "If they tell you that Syria knew nothing about this, just look. This is the evidence. Proof, not just talk."

The discovery of the origin of the weapons proved to the Israelis that their enemy was not a ragged and lightly armed militia but a semi-professional army equipped by Syria and Iran to take on Israel. The weapons require serious training to operate and could be beyond the capabilities of some supposedly regular armies in the Middle East. The Kornet was unveiled by Russia in 1994. It is laser-guided, has a range of three miles and carries a double warhead capable of penetrating the reactive armour on Israeli Merkava tanks. Russia started supplying them to Syria in 1998.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/08/15/wmid15.xml

[rudel.dietrich]

This means we will see the Milan too

I was treated to a Javeling demonstration about 18 months ago and we were all extremly impressed.

We were somewhat less impressed when we were told less than 2500 were in service

I am assuming this new game will have rarity added into the loss of a unit and when you purchase a unit in a QB?