Dillweed Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 I'm not going to use this thread to toot my own horn about how right I was on the setting. That would be immature. Now that the setting has turned out to be what I predicted What's the chance that are we gonna get our hands on one of these babies? I know we'll be commanding a stryker unit, but perhaps we'll get one (platoon?) assigned for support for a more difficult MOUT mission. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Cairns Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 If you get Abrams and I get SHMEL, i'll meet you in a dark alley anytime, Dill. Peter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rai kitsune Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 Wait wait wait by that time any Abrams taking part in urban offensives will be equped with TUSK wont they? in that case i'll meet your dark ally bet 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillweed Posted October 10, 2005 Author Share Posted October 10, 2005 I wouldn't want to sqeeze an Abrams into an alley, dark or not. I'm thinking the tiger in the alley in Kelly's Heroes. In a big change from the past, current US Army doctrine in to drive the tanks right into an urban environments. Think the "show of force" into b-dad during OIF. [ October 10, 2005, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: Dillweed ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassh Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 Not against a first-world or second-world army it ain't - you drive an Abrams into an urban fight with infantry with 3rd and 4th generation ATGMs and LAWs and you'll have a lot of big metal paperweights sitting in the street. Infantry have concealment and elevation; all that they need is discipline, co-ordinated fires and a decent chance of penetrating the weaker top armour/rear armour or engine decking and its Abrams (or any other MBT for that matter) hotpot for supper. Admittedly the Abrams is an awesome combat vehicle. With thermal imaging and fire control systems it will spot threats not noticed by other less well equipped platforms. That would make movement for infantry more difficult - but, and this is the big but - the Abrams would still be sitting ducks against Javelin/Spike/TOW 2/MBT LAW or even something old and fruity such as Law 80 if the ambushing troops knew what they were about. As long as the infantry had their wits about them and were reasonably well trained, possessing decent ATGM/LAWs then the tanks, even with immediate supporting infantry in their locality would prove incredible vulnerable. You'd need to keep the armour deep - from depth against a modern well-trained army - say 2.6K out to make sure the Javelins couldn't touch them... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillweed Posted October 10, 2005 Author Share Posted October 10, 2005 To be honest I don't know the doctrine for 1st and 2nd world armies. However I think this is irrelevant as Syria is not either. The convention wisdom is taking tanks into a city is a bad bad idea. But if the best thing the other side has is an RPG-7... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antawar Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 It depends on what version of the rpg-7 you are talking about the basic version of the PRG-7 can only penetrate 330 mm of armor. You basically need to aim at the engine compartment from behind or the top armor and pray. Not much behind armor damage either. The RPG-7V can penetrate 600mm, which can sometimes penetrates the side armor of an M1A2. To get assured penetration you need to hit a weak spot (there are some) on the side, the top or the rear of the tank. now the russian have a new RPG called the RPG-29: This baby has a 105mm warhead (compared to 73mm for the RPG-7) so it causes much more behind the armor damage and it can penetrate 800-850 mm of armor, easily punching though the side armor of an M1A2 (600mm protection against heat). As for ATGW: the russians have two that can really ruin an m1's day: Kornet and Krisanthema. Both have penetrations of 1150-1200mm of armor, which means the only area of an M1A2 that can resist this missile is the front of the turret. Rear, sides, top and the frontal hull can be penetrated easily. All these weapons can be found in the inventory of some of the armies that the US may face in the future (including the enemy in shock force: Syria) Oh and BTW: Syria qualifies as a second world army. Javelin and tow-2, apilas, m136 are great too but not much chance of seeing them in action against US armor. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juan_gigante Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 And Syria has lots of stuff better than RPGs. Kornet (spelling?) ATGMs were used to great effect by Iraqi troops, and Syria has a few thousand, compared to Iraq few hundred (I think the numbers are right, but please correct them). In addition, the Syrians have even more slightly lower-tech ATGMs, and these are still powerful enough to give the US player the willies. No, if you see a guy with just an RPG, you're lucky. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thermopylae Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 Used to great effect? I recall two disabled (not catastrophic kills...think abandoned in CM terms) M1s from the Kornets. Two. Against an army with a few hundred Kornets. Yes, its nasty enough to disable an Abrams, but I wouldn't place huge stock in it being the weapon that brings the armor company to its knees. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1A1TC Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 Talking about TUSK... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Cairns Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 The SHMEL is thermo baric and it's job is to paste the infantry in and around the Abrams, once it's lost it's eyes and ears the Adrams is a 70 tonne cage for the crew. It's not just urban either, in Narrow passes and in boulder fields infantry have a real advantage over armour, the Abrams is no T-55 but look at Soviet armour and mech losses in Afghanistan, which were overwhelmingly in rural and mountainous areas. Oh and my favourite anti armour terrain is thick brush, preferably about 1.5m high with drainage ditches irregation channels raised roads and plenty of soft muddy ground. Peter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillweed Posted October 10, 2005 Author Share Posted October 10, 2005 Not saying that syraians are incable of ruining an Abrams day. Only what army doctrine is currently. According to the all seeing all knowing wikipedia Syria would not be considered a Second World as that applies to the soviets and thier satalites. All hail Wikipedia! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassh Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 Hence my reference to the term second world. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwazydog Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 Originally posted by Thermopylae: Used to great effect? I recall two disabled (not catastrophic kills...think abandoned in CM terms) M1s from the Kornets. Two. Against an army with a few hundred Kornets.I didnt think the Iraqi's were supposed to have any, which is why it caused such a concern at the time? Dan 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillweed Posted October 11, 2005 Author Share Posted October 11, 2005 I think we are getting off topic. Yes, its well established that M1s are not invincible, I never claimed they were. My original point: Will we seem them in CMSF? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Cairns Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 Yes but not for long.... Peter, 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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