Squad Management

[pad152]

Squad Management

Having played with latest WWII RTS games (COH & FOW) I must say I don't like the squad movement/management in either. I think both suffer from poor AI management.

How will Shock Force be different?

[C'Rogers]

Ummmm ... it will be more like CMx1 I guess. I don't think looking at modern games is the best place to start as CM has always been very different from them. Better to ask what changes will be made to the squad based control from CMx1.

[Cpl Steiner]

I too would love to know more about how squads will move under AI control compared to their CMx1 equivalents.

In CMx1, as we all know, all the men in the squad moved around as a single unit. In CMx2, we are told, they are split into fireteams (up to 3 IIRC) and these teams are supposed to move in a more realistic fashion, with one team moving whilst another provides overwatch etc.

If this is the case, it will be a big improvement over CMx1 but then again, maybe I've completely misunderstood and this won't be the case at all.

[Battlefront.com]

The control of Squads in CMx2 is pretty much the same as in CMx1. The TacAI behaves a certain way depending on what you're asking the unit to do, where to do it, and what factors (inherent and conditional) have some bearing on the action itself. However, unlike CMx1 the TacAI will make some attempt at using good covering terrain when you ask it to move from A to B. This means the unit might not follow the precise path you laid out (though it favors that) or stay at the exact point you asked it to stop at (though it also tries to favor that). For example, if you order a Squad to stop a couple of meters away from a wall it will assume positions along the wall instead of the open terrain. That sort of thing.

Steve

[pad152]

How will squads look in CM: SF?

What games with a full squad of individual men do you like?

Steel Panther - Never liked the circle of match stick men infantry.

Soldiers Heroes of WWII (SHOWII) - liked individual control of men, but the squad control in FOW(Faces of War) is just bad (very poor AI control).

Company of Heroes (COH) - looks ok, sort of but infantry are nothing more than cannon fodder!

Close Combat (CC1, CC2, CC3) - So far I think the way these games handled Squad Infantry is still about the best. The Close Combat 3D (GI combat, Squad Combat, etc.) games were total crap, watching infantry was like watching march of the tin soldiers (pain full to watch).

How can CM: SF with squad control of infantry (no individual control) and RTS gameplay be something more then just another RTS game?

So far no one has advanced the click click here, click click there nature of RTS games!! If you try to pay attention to units at one end of the map, things just goto hell at the other end!

Really like to see some screen shots of infantry in action!!

[Battlefront.com]

Do a search This has been covered in great detail before. Could possibly even be in the sticky topics at the top of this Forum.

Also remember that you can play in traditional WeGo mode.

Steve

[stikkypixie]

Steve, if the TacAI screws up the positioning, is there a way for us to manually correct it?

[cassh]

if you order a Squad to stop a couple of meters away from a wall it will assume positions along the wall instead of the open terrain. That sort of thing.

Does that mean the game is not modelling “channelling”/”walling” where in reality during MOUT engagements the rounds tend to cling to the walls along streets as the rounds are channelled down the line of the structures; so the last place you want to be is clinging to a wall?

This phenomena is something MOUT tacticians are having to come to grips with as it goes against instinct and “common sense” but does save lives.

[Cpl Steiner]

If in CMx2 an entire squad of men just advances as one I must say I think I will be a bit let down. I had got the impression somewhere along the line that the AI would know how teams are organised in a squad and would employ fire and manoeuvre tactics to advance the squad a team at a time. Am I wrong? If so, I presume we will still be able to do this by manually splitting a squad into fire-teams?

[Battlefront.com]

The amount of adjustment the TacAI will do is extremely limited, therefore it shouldn't be a problem when it does move your guys a few meters one way or another. We're not talking about major differences between what you requested and what you get.

No, we are not modelling "channelling". That would be, uhm, difficult to do. It requires tracking the angle of impact of small arms, calculating how far it should "channel", and if it digs in somewhere along the way. The reason why tactitians are having problems with things like this is that one tactic doesn't fit all circumstances.

If you are walking down a street, in the middle, then you can be hit by fire from both sides of the street. If you are on one side you've acheived about a 50% reduction in lateral small arms threats. It also puts you closer to getting bheind something, such as a door frame or actually into a building. And if someone on your side of the street is hitting your buddies on the other side, then you are right there and can enter and interdict without delay. If you are walking by a low wall you're better off from a threat on the other side than if you were standing away from the wall. Being up close can prevent fire from even 3 or more stories high compared to if you are out in the open and able to get hit from the 2nd story. You also don't have to worry about that Abrams suddenly backing up either

Therefore, like so many other tactical choices one can make, the optimal choice usually only becomes obvious after it is too late to make a change. By and large I would think that being near a wall is better than not. At least when nothing is known about the enemy.

Squads do not act as a single mass connected together. They move and do things individually. Depending on what sorts of Commands you issue and the circumstances you will see the TacAI do all sorts of things. If you order your unit to Run, for example, they are not going to waste initiative by hanging around and covering other guys. There are different Commands that acheive that. Something like Run is just that... RUN!! Something like Assault is an entirely different thing.

Steve

[Cpl Steiner]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Squads do not act as a single mass connected together. They move and do things individually. Depending on what sorts of Commands you issue and the circumstances you will see the TacAI do all sorts of things. If you order your unit to Run, for example, they are not going to waste initiative by hanging around and covering other guys. There are different Commands that acheive that. Something like Run is just that... RUN!! Something like Assault is an entirely different thing.

Steve

Thanks Steve, this is sounding a lot more like what I had originally envisaged from previous posts. Looking forward to seeing it in action!