panzermartin Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 I just read the intro of the manual that refers to the weird LOS/LOF through terrain blaming it to the limitations of today's computers. Does this mean that we will never have decent line of sight and cover in the CMx2 engine? The more I play the more frustrating it gets. I played a flat map with a rather deep ditch as the only cover feature for the infantry and guess what..APCs had no problems to fire their guns through the ground and eliminate my men although there was no way that they could be seen hiding in a 3 meters deep ditch. I dont see any point in 1:1 presentaion with the current LOS I'm afraid. I have seen men firing through walls and los blocked in the middle of a perfectly flat street for no apparent reason. I would trade 1:1 presentation with the solid LOS system of CMx1 any day. Hope there is room for improvement here and it is not a weakness deep rooted in the game's enigne. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewood Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 Funny, I missed that on the first read through. With all the LOS issues and the number of people reporting shooting through ground, I am surprised it ended up in the manual. While non-combat things like branches passing through trees can be shrugged off, I'm surprised BFC so easily shrugs off something that so puts a needle to the immersion/realism balloon. I gives a pretty big advantage to the AI. I guess it comes down to what is the line CMSF draws in abstracting the chaos of battle and is everything abstracted to the same order of magnitude. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhmorneau Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 I agree 100 % with panzermartin : there are big LOS/LOF problems with the current version of CMSF. Yesterday, I had syrian FO unit moving behind a 2m high concrete wall, which means they were fully protected. However at a given point they were spotted by US units on the other side of the wall and then methodically mowed down by small arms & machinegun fire which went right THROUGH it!!!! My jaw dropped when I saw that ! I also noticed some strange small arms fire landing on my infantry while there was no LOS whatsoever. Obviously the fire went through the top of the ridge. What puzzles me is nearly no one posted about LOS/LOF on the forum so far. For me, it is a major issue that should be fixed asap. Don't you think so? BTW I also wondered why those concrete walls were undestructible in the game. I pounded them with A1 fire, to no avail. Couldn't even smash through them with my tanks. Weird and annoying. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Krejcirik Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 There are many reports of LOS problems. I'd like to see an official comment whether it is a bug or a design issue. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhmorneau Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 Indeed. Found a thread named "8ft concrete wall doesn't block small arms?", but there is no official comment in it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzermartin Posted August 3, 2007 Author Share Posted August 3, 2007 Actually there is official word on this. It is is in the manual: "...there are some fundamental abstractions necessary to make this whole thing work on your PC. The end result is that as you play CM sometimes you will see things that don’t look quite right. A soldier shooting through solid ground, perhaps, or a tree branch passing through a passing tank. In a perfect world we would have enough time and computing power to avoid these abstractions. Since we don’t, we can’t. What we can do is make sure these abstractions do not negatively impact the realism of the overall simulation. The “big picture” of your experience in CM is, after all, what is most important" So, the numerous LOS issues are necessary abstractions I suppose. I dont know, if cover, exposure, line of sight etc are so unpredictable and there are invisible holes everywhere, gameplay becomes a troop baby-sitting nightmare. These abstractions (?) do impact the realism of the simulation and the big picture of the game imo. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melnibone Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 Let's hope they get some of these issues sorted - shooting through walls is particularly alarming to my commanders. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Krejcirik Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 I think the manual refers to some corner cases, comparable to CMx1 tanks hitting ground few meters front of them. But what we get currently are fundamental problems. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzermartin Posted August 3, 2007 Author Share Posted August 3, 2007 Well it says about "soldier firing through solid ground". This can include everything from seeing/firing through corners, walls and hills. They are aware of the problems and from what I get, there is no possible fix for that. I love the 1:1 but is damn hard to simulate, and if there is no possible way to be workable I would happily go back to 3 men per squad or at least a system that tells you where the main body and firepower of your squad is positioned(like a CMx1 colored main base ) with the 1:1 soldiers just for eye candy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juhhe Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 Hi I have seen some very weird LOS behaviour too and am not very happy about it. In addition to these I have spotted some unit appearing from nowhere (and I am sure that it is not due to relative spotting, thank you). In few battles I have been suffering extra casualties due to LOS not working properly. They mau call it abstraction, but still it hurts the fun in playing. There is nothing funny in that I have parked my tank 13 meter away from firing T-72 and still my tank did not spot this T-72. Me thinks that if you are 13 meters away fron a shooting tank you should anyway here it.... I myself cannot understand this relation with 1:1 display of soldiers and poor LOS. So in older games with the 3 men squad the LOS worked fine. Now with squad with about 7-9 men and boom, LOS doesnt work anymore. I do realize that there is 3 times more work for CPU to check LOS for every men in CMx2 compared to CMx1 but still, current computers should be able to handle this. And propably in older games the LOS was not checked for all 3 men but for the whole squad => 1 LOS. Why not done so in CMx2 games too?. Why have a 1:1 representation with 1:1 LOS if you still can command only the whole squad with poor TACAI. Just my quick thought. Still, poor LOS combined with poor pathing and AI do not currently elevate this game to status it deserves, unfortunately. But maybe in current patches.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juhhe Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 Hi I have seen some very weird LOS behaviour too and am not very happy about it. In addition to these I have spotted some unit appearing from nowhere (and I am sure that it is not due to relative spotting, thank you). In few battles I have been suffering extra casualties due to LOS not working properly. They mau call it abstraction, but still it hurts the fun in playing. There is nothing funny in that I have parked my tank 13 meter away from firing T-72 and still my tank did not spot this T-72. Me thinks that if you are 13 meters away fron a shooting tank you should anyway here it.... I myself cannot understand this relation with 1:1 display of soldiers and poor LOS. So in older games with the 3 men squad the LOS worked fine. Now with squad with about 7-9 men and boom, LOS doesnt work anymore. I do realize that there is 3 times more work for CPU to check LOS for every men in CMx2 compared to CMx1 but still, current computers should be able to handle this. And propably in older games the LOS was not checked for all 3 men but for the whole squad => 1 LOS. Why not done so in CMx2 games too?. Why have a 1:1 representation with 1:1 LOS if you still can command only the whole squad with poor TACAI. Just my quick thought. Still, poor LOS combined with poor pathing and AI do not currently elevate this game to status it deserves, unfortunately. But maybe in future patches.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dischord Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 Edit: there's a post below regarding an update to come sometime soon. Let's see what is on the fix list. My hunch is small arms penetration issues will be on the short list. [ August 03, 2007, 04:25 AM: Message edited by: dischord ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewood Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 Its more the unpredictable nature of it. If I knew exactly when an enemy can fire through a ridge at me, I can at least plan around it. Still not happy about it, but at least its a little more fair. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntarr Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 Original thread Keep it here so we can ensure they see the problems 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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