LOS errors

[c3k]

birdstrike, yes it seems similar to that thread.

Did you ever get a response? I note that dima chimed in with a request for a savegame. I assume that means BF.C is aware of your issue?

This may be a little different. It may be due to the ELOS start spot. I don't know.

Thanks,

Ken

[birdstrike]

Yes, he was very helpful in that matter. He forwarded the issue to BFC who are looking into the problem. So, it should get fixed - though of course there is no guarantee it will be in for 1.08. But we'll see.

[Paper Tiger]

c3k

from your earlier post...

Steve,

I'm not sure I understand: Are you saying that prone=no LOS? Or are you saying prone=no LOS to anything at the same level or lower?

No, that's not what he's saying. Both those statements are incorrect.

The level of the terrain is important. Let's say that the terrain level of your craters on that road is level 10. Since that's slightly lower than the road, we'll say the road's at terrain level 11.

Okay, now a unit that's prone on a piece of terrain draws LOS from the level of the terrain. Therefore, prone in the crater, level 10, prone on the road level 11.

Now, obviously, you can draw LOS from level 10 to the adjacent level 11 action spot but no further because, then, the LOS would have to be drawn through the ground. Further, if you're prone on the road at level 11, you can draw LOS to all other level 11 terrain tiles or higher where LOS is not impeded by some blocking obstacle.

Now, if a unit is kneeling on a piece of terrain, it's LOS is calculated from terrain level +1. Therefore in the crater, it's now calculated from level 11, (terrain level 10 +1 for kneeling)

If it's standing on that terrain then it's terrain level +2. Therfore in the crater, LOS is calculated from level 12, (terrain level 10 +2 for standing),

So that means that it's possible for LOS to be drawn from three different points in a piece of terrain depending on the unit's posture. (Actually there's 5 but that's not for infantry) There's nothing in between those levels. Nothing, regardless of how it looks on your screen. It's an abstraction so it's utterly irrelevent if you can see the Sniper's eyes and weapons peaking over the crater's edge in your screenshot.

As for the anomolous point further down the road in your screenshot, that's a bug but it's a bug that doesn't appear affect gameplay as you can't actually fire on that point. It could be a result of some terrain alterations made in the scenario editor or something else but it's not really important as you can't exploit it in any way.

So, if something isn't working in the way I've explained it above, then it's a bug and by all means you should report it.

I would imagine that a FPS would be able to calculate LOS with the fidelity you're looking for in this simulation. But it's absolutely impossible in a game of this scale. I don't think you're one of those people who don't like the game and are picking it to death mercilessly. But you do seem to have rather unrealistic expectations, probably due to due to the 1:1 on-screen representation, and are therefore picking it to death mercilessly.

[Battlefront.com]

Thanks for reposting that Paper Tiger.

The main point here is that looking at where the graphical representation of the head is doesn't matter since the LOS/LOF is traced based on the relative height of the terrain underneath the Soldier and the Soldier's current stance. While prone in a crater the chances are that he's going to be not doing any shooting, or getting shot at, if the enemy is at the same height, lower height, or slightly higher height.

The latter is the big variable because the height differential and the distance between the two points is extremely important. If you are +2 higher and 8m away that's very different than +2 and 100m away because distance tends to counter act height differences in the real world.

The issue that is at the heart of c3k's observations is what I've be saying now for several posts... the guys in the crater are below the road height. This completely changes things from a unit like that MG team which is on the same level as the road itself. Again, the unit in the crater is in the crater and it is prone. Where the graphical eyeballs are matters not one iota because the system is not able to calculate infinite points, just the 5 heights that ELOS has to work with.

So why can the guys in the crater sweep the road around them but not that rooftop? Because the strength of the LOS/LOF out of that crater is extremely marginal. Therefore, it doesn't take much to interfere with it. There is vegetation right where the LOS line breaks so I'd guess that's responsible for it.

Charles suggested that perhaps the default position for guys in craters should be kneeling instead of prone. This means they would have better spotting capabilities and therefore shooting opportunities. But of course LOS/LOF works both ways so they can be shot at. If that were to happen, though, the unit could go prone and be basically the way it is now (out of LOS/LOF). So I think that's what will happen, though not for v1.08. To late for that

Steve

[c3k]

Paper Tiger and Steve,

Thank you for the responses.

One quick clarification: the LOS down the road does not seem to be a bug to me. Paper Tiger, who seems to understand these things, says it may be. (I'd assume that guys can have some influence on the terrain in their immediate vicinity, barring a hard LOS block such as a tall wall.)

Is the LOS which extends out of the road berm towards the town an anomoly? I'm speaking of the blue section of the LOS. It seems to be wrong: but, I have NOT tried to snap a target point down onto the road shoulder using that target line.

My penultimate query: since the sniper team is prone in the crater, I assume at some point they will rise up on a knee? If so, what would trigger that? They do not seem to be pinned or under any suppression, yet they are prone.

Addendum I ran some further tests on the sniper team. There was some odd behavior. The two team members are "marksman" and "soldier". It took a minute, but Soldier rose to a knee. He stayed for 6 seconds, then went prone with a call of "Down!" I did not see any evidence of incoming fire; the suppression meter did not change; there were no known contact icons.

The immediately following turn, with no player commands plotted, the team self moved. The TacAI gave them a "slow" move to a point towards the edge of the wall to their front-left. (In fact, it is the exact point shown in the screenshot, above. I believe that the screenshot plotted move was also a TacAI induced command.) They did not get there. Soldier joined Marksman in the front crater, then stopped. Eventually, Soldier went back up to a knee.

At a following point, within a minute, Marksman tucked into the fetal curl position. The suppression meter stayed blank; no incoming fire; no enemy icons. His position lasted a few seconds, then he went back to normal prone.

Finally, 3 minutes after the screenshots shown above, both members were up on a knee. LOS was as expected.

End addendum.

And lastly - I claim official credit for prizing an admission out of Steve that there will be an update beyond 1.08.

Thanks,

Ken

[ April 02, 2008, 02:12 AM: Message edited by: c3k ]

[hoolaman]

It would be nice if there was a manual or automatic way to get guys in craters/foxholes/crestlines to seek LOF on a certain point. I know that is easier said than done.

One trick I have found to get prone guys up on a knee, is to plot a move order (other than SLOW) to the same position they are in. This will make them stand up but not move much. The different move orders give your guys different dispositions. Still if they are shot at they will go prone. Its better err on the side of them taking cover, at least they stay alive that way.

[Battlefront.com]

c3k,

The wall is probably within the same Action Spot. The TacAI has a free hand, in some respects, to reposition within an Action Spot based on the perceived need. This is opposed to earlier versions where the TacAI would position the men upon entering the Action Spot and then basically keep them in the position it initially thought was optimal.

I can't tell exactly what was happening in your recent example, but it would appear that the Sniper Team determined there was a target and that to get a clear shot it had to relocate to a better firing position. It would appear that it was shot at, perhaps by an enemy sniper, since the Suppression Meter didn't change but the sorts of verbal and movement responses you noted are consistent with sniper fire.

As real soldiers will tell you, there isn't a lot of information to go on in such situations so should be subtle in the game as well. Sniper fire has very little Suppression since it's just a single shot, but the effect of it on Morale can be extreme. That is what appears to have happened with your Marksman.

As for the LOS line cutting through the ground... that's an intentional, though admittedly sub-optimal, way to show the player the height the unit is at (-1 in this case compared to the surrounding ground) and where it can engage or be engaged from. We monkeyed around with having the LOS line trace the ground and provide the height info via icons, but believe me... this is a lot more straight forward and superior way to the experiments we played around with

Steve

[c3k]

Steve,

Thanks for the detailed explanation. It makes sense if they were receiving sniper fire.

Ken