Twin peaks-tactics-

[aittam]

Adms are free to move the thread where they want may be in a dedicated area.

Well I just finished a game on this map with the usual suspects (hi guys ) and I'd like to discuss a couple of tactics and here from your side.

We were dropping on the central hill, I actually missed the deployment, but I'm pretty sure that we didn't use extensive mine fields -> pro: we had more mobility con: they came in russian style waves and with bones that kicked in a couple of well called supports (F+E) and eventually we were crushed

so i was thinking what could have been the best way to play this one defensewise:

1) situation already described

2) set up an heavy perimeter: mines, turrets, jammers etc and defend it from outside->more mobility, improved capability to manuover

[yurch]

To tell you the truth, the only time I've really seen defenders win that map by a comfortable margin is with heavy mine usage. It's nearly impossible to sustain enough AA coverage to keep the enemy drops at more than arms length.

Mines of course, can be circumvented by anything with an HE blast type weapon.

[B0nes]

It was a damn close run thing (to paraphrase Wellington). It was Hamburger Hill at the end there.

:cool:

I think the attacker seems to have the advantage in those types of scenarios. Bots don't defend too well. Almost every one of those I've played the attackers have won.

As for defender tactics: Dig in using the Cutter. Get those Thors hull down. Put AA Turrets all over the map so that the attacker can only come from one direction. Funnel him with mine fields and harass with Ground Turrets and ATGM's as they approach.

Attacker: Use Mortars and Arty to soften up. Stop the bots from going in ones and twos. Drop an EMP and smoke and send them in all at once.

Sounds good in theory anyway...

[bboyle]

Originally posted by B0nes:

It was a damn close run thing (to paraphrase Wellington). It was Hamburger Hill at the end there.

:cool:

I think the attacker seems to have the advantage in those types of scenarios. Bots don't defend too well. Almost every one of those I've played the attackers have won.

As for defender tactics: Dig in using the Cutter. Get those Thors hull down. Put AA Turrets all over the map so that the attacker can only come from one direction. Funnel him with mine fields and harass with Ground Turrets and ATGM's as they approach.

Attacker: Use Mortars and Arty to soften up. Stop the bots from going in ones and twos. Drop an EMP and smoke and send them in all at once.

Sounds good in theory anyway...

Also...20mm infantry squad just over the military crest or in a dip of the ground as a last ditch. In the mix of a big firefight they get ignored and can chew up alot of tanks.

[B0nes]

Yeah, infantry is very good when used in conjunction with vehicles. You were putting them to good use today BB.

[CrimsonDestiny]

The other must-do on that map is get a Hermes on to the objective hill ASAP, and that goes for both teams.

[Dark_au]

the important bit on that map is the second hill not the objective one. If you just defend the target hill then the engagements happen in 2 bands. Long range sniping at incoming enemy and then plugging holes at close range as the enemy appear at the top.

The second hill offers a falnk view of the best avenues of approach and the ability to take shots at the enemy vehicles heading up the hill while they are moving slowly. This means that the only area of the objective hill that needs mines and point defence is the blind arc from the second hill ( NE - SE on the objective hill)

[bboyle]

Originally posted by B0nes:

Yeah, infantry is very good when used in conjunction with vehicles. You were putting them to good use today BB.

Thanks...I was trying to disrupt ajl and Chickenhawk to let you in...did it help?

[ClaytoniousRex]

One of the most important things you can do in a scenario like this is dig in some good fighting positions. This is because the primary way the attacker is going to win is by pounding the objective hill with HE from fire missions and mortars. If you take that away from him then all he's left with is frontal assaults up a hill into your own hull-down units. You should be able to win that fight.

So take advantage of the deployment phase! Most servers have a good 5 minutes of usable deployment time - more than enough to dig some good fighting positions for AA turrets and jammers:

You want at least 2, preferably 3 like this with a jammer and an AA turret. Sunk into that hole, you will be amazed at how survivable they are. Positions like the one pictured above have survived the entire game more than once, even in the face of multiple fire missions onto the hill. The same turret and jammer outside on exposed ground will get destroyed on the first fire mission.

But even more imporantly, you want at least two positions like this:

This is what's really going to keep those enemy mortars in check. Yes, you are basically using 2 bots as glorified turrets. Nothing beats a couple of Hermes sunk into foxholes so they don't die in the first fire mission that comes along.

You can do all of the above mentioned positions with 2 competent players using Cutters within a 5 minute deployment phase. If you're working alone then you can definitely dig 3 good ones. Either way, it does take some practice at making good, quick foxholes.

Your team commander should stay in a command track and be vigilant about dropping replacement turrets throughout the battle. As fire missions stack up, there are even more craters to place turrets and jammers into so take advantage of them. The commander must also keep those "dug in" Hermes in their holes, even going so far as to take manual control if necessary to push flaming wrecks out of the way and get the shiney, new replacement Hermes back into their holes. Then he should immediately switch back to the command track and keep doing his job. If the commander gets bogged down in a firefight somewhere then that distraction costs dearly.

Needless to say, a Galaxy should be on station the second deployment ends and for as much time as possible throughout the game. It supplements the PD from the two Hermes nicely. Land it to the rear, though, or in a hole if a wide enough one eventually opens up (as they sometimes do on this hill).

Dark is right about using the other hill, too, but I would use that as a supplement to the main defense with well dug-in forces as the mainstay.

[ August 01, 2006, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: ClaytoniousRex ]

[dan/california]

Clay can we get an easier way to place fighting positions during deployment maybe? Something you pick and place kind of like a turret and it just appears. It would be a huge plus for defenders on all of the maps and would increase the importance of fixed defenses a lot I think. It could be as simple as being able to fire mortar rounds targeted in your own deployment area during deployment. Very carefully targeted mortar rounds I might add.

I have too much to do during deployment trying to get the bots organized into something more useful than a thor scrum.

Traffic on the servers is picking up. I think many more people will star using the command track correctly going forward. You need a couple or three human shooters before you can spare a person for the command track with the current level of bot intelligence.

Last but not least can we get a group drop command, so all three plus ships come in at the same time. That way one guy who is having a hot hand with the 120 is not going to get them all.

Less capture the flag would also be good in this regard. None would be better.

[yurch]

Attacking is pretty easy: Kill.

A big thing about that objective hill is that it basically amounts to one big blind corner. Fast assaults from combination 20mm hermes or paladin while the slow 120mm's support can cause tremendous losses in very short order. Do it with multiple players (not bots) from different angles. Once you've razed everything on the hill put some sensors up for early warning.

That hill is close combat of the bloodiest sort, and I've had games where I do nothing but frenzied killing. Nothing but the Thor front armor can step to the 20mm at close range. Thor should be making heavy use of it's coaxial along with HEAT rounds. Once the Thors run out nothing really matters except for pure numbers - don't let the bots waste these!

Stopping players on the slopes can be difficult. Either you're close enough for them to do significant damage to you with close combat weapons, or you're giving top shots to further enemies because of that incline.

If you must use shelling or ion attacks, use it to harass reinforcements instead of firing on the brawl up at the top. Early shelling is never very effective as the targets are usually just point defenses and Thors. Later, there's too much risk of hitting teammates if the assault is going well, and ion won't have enough time. However, if enemy reinforcements are limping up the hill with burning tires and damaged engines, it gives the swarm a better chance.

You only need someone near the objective, and often in the smoke, jamming and confusion a disabled attacker can continue to generate points.

I find the standard trenches work better in valleys. It's often awkward for the larger vehicles to shoot in downwards directions while inside them. You can alternately use the high-side the trenches build to protect tracks somewhat.

[Dark_au]

Basic attack strategy for any map can fall into several categories but the easiest 2 are:-

Massed firepower. This is the role I think the hermes was intended for. Like a sci-fi analogy to the WW2 formation lead bombers. Form a phalanx of armour around a hermes and a command track and roll at your enemy. Pros:- gets maximum firepower into a minimum arc. especially as artillery is less than usefull now (tactical). Replacements can be dropped back into the formation whilst on the move. Cons:- Hard to organise and maintain coherence especially with bots. If the enemy decides to defend over an arc then its easy for them to concentrate a cone of fire into the formation and negated the attackers need for the concentrated punch.

Chaos and Harrassment. Engulf the enemy from all sides. Keep him facing in different directions and hit him from the flanks. This is what we commonly see. It can be very wastefull for the attacker though if the defender can get enough overlapping fields of fire. Pro's:- unpredictable to the defender. gives them a large field of fire to cover. Cons:- Chaos goes both ways, if everyone isn't keeping up on each others positions then you get friendly fire incidents.

From a defencive stance your base tactic is to pick the route you want your enemy to take and try and channelise him into that route. This can be by denying all of the map except one area to land on. Once you have him landing there you need to use mines to narrow the channel into an open killing ground preferably at that point you can hit him with the turrets and hull down units getting a crossfire. Trouble is with this that the attrition on your finite supply of turrets will eventually open up other drop zones. Especially with human controlled infantry opening gaps.

Unfortunately unit attrition doesn't really factor in too heavily as in a 30 minute game there is always enough units for the attacker to keep up pressure. I think that given a longer mission time the advantage of attrition will swing in the defenders favour as the attacker runs out of everything.