I am looking into the exact numbers of Luftwaffe VS VVS and will report what I find

[Zanadu]

There are several points in Mage's last, that I actually agree with. "Soviet tactics in 1941-2 were extremely wasteful of manpower". Soviet tactics did improve, but continued to be 'extemely wasteful of manpower' by the standards of either the Germans, or the western Allies right up to the end of the war.

Totalling up the labor force of the areas under German control, however, is both simplistic and deceptive. Due to the unwillingness of the Germans to use women in industry (as all the other powers did) the Germans were limited to working their factories one, or at the most, two shifts rather than three for much of the war. When they finally, really went to a wartime industrial footing in 1943, they had to make large scale use of slave labor from occupied countries. This brought in all kinds of problems trying to prevent sabotage by the workers (which was common) and reduced the efficiency well below a simple counting of numbers.

As to the manpower available for military service, the Germans could make use of only a very small percentage from the occupied countries, while at the same time, had to maintain occupation forces in those countries, using up German manpower. This is, of course, over and beyond the increasing manpower requirements of other fronts.

Again, I remain convinced that the failure of the intitial German offensive was caused by their forces being insufficient to the needs of dealing with the defending Soviet forces (poorly handled, but numberous) as well as the need to occupy huge areas of captured territory, and provide logisitcal support for offensive operations. That decided the outcome of the war. From there on, the balance of numbers and quality shifted inevitably to the Soviets. During 1942 the two sides were fairly evenly matched. After the summer of 1942 the balance was more and more overwhelmingly with the Soviets.

[TheHumanMage]

You seem to miss the fact that those are not my words BUT THE BRITiSH PROFESSOR Richard Overy WHO EXPLAINS WHY YOU ARE WRONG.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/soviet_german_war_01.shtml

No Soviet tactics were not wasteful right up untill the end of the war as I said before and as you ignore

Total Soviet Military DEAD 8.6 million

Total EURO Axis Military DEAD on the Eastern Front 5.5 million

Soviet Casulties first 6 months of the war 3 million dead 3 million captured 56% of all captured died = 4.5 million DEAD during the first 6 months

Total Euro Axis dead during the first 6 months 500k

8.6 million minus 4.5 million = 4,1 million DEAD 1942-45

5.5 million DEAD minus 500k = 5 million DEAD 1942-45

The numbers Zandu prove you wrong

And Again you ignore the fact that the Germans had 5 times as much natural resources and twice the number of labour

First number is German second number is Soviet numbers are from Richard Overy's The Dictators

Coal (million tonnes)

1941 315.5 - 151.4

1942 317.9 - 75.5

1943 340.4 - 93.1

1944 347.6 - 121.5

Steel (million tonnes)

1941 28.2 - 17.9

1942 28.7 - 8.1

1943 30.6 - 8.5

1944 25.8 - 10.9

Aluminium (thousand tonnes)

1941 233.6 - –

1942 264.0 - 51.7

1943 250.0 - 62.3

1944 245.3 - 82.7

Labour

1941 16,400,000 - 11,000,000

1942 16,200,000 - 7,250,000

1943 16,800,000 - 7,700,000

1944 18,000,000 - 9,000,000

[ September 27, 2006, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: TheHumanMage ]

[rune]

Luftwaffe Order of Battle

24 June 1941

Serviceable Aircraft Strengths

Single-engined fighters 898

Twin-engined day fighters 105

Night fighters 148

Fighter-bombers 124

Dive-bombers 260

Twin-engined bombers 931

Four-engined bombers 4

Long-range reconaissance aircraft 282

Short-range and army cooperation aircraft 388

Coastal aircraft 76

Transport aircraft 212

Total 3428

Russia

Unit Aircraft Total Svcble

Luftflotte 1

Stab/JG 54 Bf 109 4 3

I/JG 54 43 27

II/JG 54 40 33

III/JG 54 42 35

II/KG 1 Ju 88A 29 27

III/KG 1 30 29

I/KG 76 31 22

II/KG 76 30 25

III/KG 76 29 22

Stab/KG 77 1 1

I/KG 77 30 23

II/KG 77 31 23

III/KG 77 29 20

KGr 806 30 18

KGr zbV 106 Ju 52 44 8

Luftflotte 2

Stab/JG 27 Bf 109 4 4

II/JG 27 40 31

III/JG 27 40 14

Stab/JG 51 4 4

I/JG 51 40 38

II/JG 51 40 23

III/JG 51 38 30

IV/JG 51 38 26

Stab/JG 53 4 4

I/JG 53 35 29

4., 5./JG 53 35 33

III/JG 53 38 36

II (Sch.)/LG 2 Bf 109E 38 37

10. (Sch.)/LG 2 Hs 123A 13 13

Stab/ZG 26 Bf 110 4 4

I/ZG 26 38 17

II/ZG 26 36 30

Stab/KG 2 Do 17Z 3 3

I/KG 2 38 21

7., 8./KG 2 24 23

Stab/KG 3 1 1

Ju 88A 1 1

I/KG 3 38 32

II/KG 3 38 32

III/KG 3 Do 17Z 36 18

II/KG 4 He 111H 24 8

Stab/KG 53 6 4

I/KG 53 28 18

II/KG 53 21 10

III/KG 53 31 22

Stab/SKG 210 Bf 110C/D/E 5 4

I/SKG 210 41 33

II/SKG 210 37 37

Stab/StG 1 Bf 110 6 3

Ju 87 3 2

II/StG 1 39 28

III/StG 1 39 24

Stab/StG 2 Bf 110 6 4

Ju 87 3 3

I/StG 2 35 19

III/StG 2 39 20

Stab/StG 77 Bf 110 6 6

Ju 87 3 1

I/StG 77 38 31

II/StG 77 39 28

III/StG 77 35 28

IV/KG zbV 1 Ju 52 40 38

KGr zbV 102 43 8

Luftflotte 4

Stab/JG 3 Bf 109 4 2

I/JG 3 29 23

II/JG 3 25 25

III/JG 3 39 39

Stab/JG 52 4 3

I/JG 52 38 28

II/JG 52 39 37

III/JG 52 43 41

Stab/JG 77 2 2

II/JG 77 39 19

III/JG 77 35 20

I (Sch.)/LG 2 Bf 109E 40 20

Stab/KG 27 He 111H 5 5

I/KG 27 30 22

II/KG 27 24 21

III/KG 27 28 25

Stab/KG 51 Ju 88A 2 2

I/KG 51 22 22

II/KG 51 36 29

III/KG 53 32 28

Stab/KG 54 Ju 88A 1 1

I/KG 54 34 31

II/KG 54 36 33

Stab/KG 55 He 111H 8 7

I/KG 55 27 27

II/KG 55 24 22

III/KG 55 25 24

KGr zbV 50 Ju 52 44 24

KGr zbV 104 41 37

Norway and Finland

Unit Aircraft Total Svcble

Luftflotte 5

I/JG 77 Bf 109T 52 26

13., 14./JG 77 Bf 109E

Z./JG 77 Bf 110C/D 12 7

I/KG 26 He 111H 31 26

I/KG 30 Ju 88A 34 19

II/KG 30 31 22

IV (St.)/LG 1 Ju 87B/R 42 39

KüFlGr 406 Bv 138A/Do 18D/G/He 115B/C 24 14

1./KüFlGr 506 He 115B/C 9 8

KüFlGr 706 Ar 196/He 114/He 115 13 6

3./KüFlGr 906 Do 18D/G 9 5

KGr zbV 108 Various 26 17

Note: Some sources say that only the Stab of KüFlGr 706 was present controlling 3./KüFlGr 906 and 1./KüFlGr 406 and that 1./KüFlGr 506 was withdrawn in April of '41.

The Mediterranean

Unit Aircraft Total Svcble

X. Fliegerkorps

I/JG 27 Bf 109 34 25

III/ZG 26 Bf 110 25 22

Stab/LG 1 Ju 88A 1 1

I/LG 1 35 4

II/LG 1 25 11

III/LG 1 27 11

II/KG 26 He 111H 28 5

III/KG 26 30 12

III/KG 30 Ju 88A 15 6

KüFlGr 506 11 4

I/StG 1 Ju 87 25 21

Stab/StG 3 3 3

Bf 110 4 0

I/StG 3 Ju 87 30 13

Stab/KG zbV 1 Ju 52 2 1

I/KG zbV 1 27 14

II/KG zbV 1 39 19

III/KG zbV 1 41 29

KGr zbV 9 25 9

KGr zbV 172 44 8

The West

Unit Aircraft Total Svcble

Luftflotte 3

Stab/JG 2 Bf 109 4 4

I/JG 2 36 30

II/JG 2 40 36

III/JG 2 37 32

Stab/JG 26 4 3

I/JG 26 31 27

II/JG 26 34 22

III/JG 26 43 36

Stab/ZG 76 Bf 110 4 4

II/ZG 76 34 21

II/KG 2 Do 217E 31 23

I/KG 4 He 111H 29 19

II/KG 4 25 15

I/KG 40 Fw 200C 21 4

II/KG 40 Do 217E 12 5

He 111H 10 5

III/KG 40 22 14

KGr 100 19 14

KGr 606 Ju 88A 29 13

KüFlGr 106 17 4

He 115 9 5

Germany and Denmark

Unit Aircraft Total Svcble

Luftwaffenbefehlshaber Mitte

Stab/JG 1 Bf 109 4 4

I/JG 1 28 34

Stab/NJG 1 Bf 110 4 2

I/NJG 1 37 28

II/NJG 1 32 21

Do 215 5 2

III/NJG 1 Bf 109 11 9

Bf 110 34 28

Stab/NJG 2 Ju 88C 4 4

I/NJG 2 32 15

Do 17Z 6 4

Stab/NJG 3 Bf 110 3 3

I/NJG 3 37 32

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Luftwaffe Order of Battle

27 July 1942

Serviceable Aircraft Strengths

Single-engined fighters 945

Twin-engined day fighters 58

Night fighters 203

Fighter-bombers 40

Specialized ground attack aircraft 19

Dive-bombers 249

Twin-engined bombers 1119

Four-engined bombers 41

Long-range reconaissance aircraft 188

Short-range and army cooperation aircraft 209

Coastal aircraft 64

Transport aircraft 365

Total 3500

Units in bold are reforming. Underlined units are forming. Units in italics are re-equipping.

Russia

Unit Aircraft Total Svcble

Luftflotte 1

I/JG 54 Bf 109 40 25

II/JG 54 40 28

III/JG 54 22 18

Stab/KG 1 He 111H 2 1

I/KG 1 Ju 88A 27 14

II/KG 1 26 14

III/KG 1 33 21

Stab/KG 53 He 111H 4 4

I/KG 53 31 23

II/KG 53 33 26

III/KG 53 Ju 88A 44 29

III/StG 1 Ju 87D 32 23

Luftflotte 4

Stab/JG 3 Bf 109 3 2

I/JG 3 24 9

II/JG 3 22 10

III/JG 3 25 12

Stab/JG 52 4 4

II/JG 52 40 24

III/JG 52 35 20

13. (slow.)/JG 52 Bf 109G ? ?

15. (kroat.)/JG 52 Bf 109 12 6

I/JG 53 40 8

Stab/JG 77 4 4

1./JG 77 9 6

II/JG 77 23 16

III/JG 77 27 21

Stab/ZG 1 Bf 110 3 2

I/ZG 1 36 14

II/ZG 1 31 15

III/ZG 1 Bf 109 40 40

Do 217 3 1

7./ZG 2 Bf 109 12 9

III/LG 1 Ju 88A 28 11

Stab/KG 27 He 111H 2 2

I/KG 27 32 20

II/KG 27 31 21

III/KG 27 31 8

Stab/KG 51 Ju 88A 2 0

I/KG 51 30 17

II/KG 51 33 8

III/KG 53 28 8

Stab/KG 55 He 111H 4 4

I/KG 55 31 19

II/KG 55 30 21

III/KG 55 29 20

Stab/KG 76 Ju 88A 3 2

I/KG 76 27 13

II/KG 76 33 14

III/KG 76 38 12

Stab/KG 100 He 111H 1 1

I/KG 100 37 13

II/StG 1 Ju 87D 39 30

Stab/StG 2 3 3

Bf 110 6 4

I/StG 2 Ju 87D 28 20

II/StG 2 31 19

III/StG 2 18 11

Stab/StG 77 3 1

Bf 110 6 4

I/StG 77 Ju 87D 29 20

II/StG 77 35 28

III/StG 77 33 18

Stab/SchG 1 Bf 109 2 1

I/SchG 1 31 16

II/SchG 1 Hs 123A 12 6

Hs 129B 28 13

II/KG zbV 1 Ju 52 35 2

KGr zbV 4 49 31

KGr zbV 5 52 22

KGr zbV 9 52 34

KGr zbV 50 48 29

KGr zbV 102 52 22

KGr zbV 900 48 16

Luftwaffenkommando Ost

Stab/JG 51 Bf 109 2 1

I/JG 51 31 15

II/JG 51 34 20

III/JG 51 37 22

IV/JG 51 36 29

15. (span.)/JG 51 10 6

Stab/JG 54 4 3

I/JG 54 43 27

II/JG 54 40 33

Stab/KG 3 Ju 88A 2 2

I/KG 3 34 15

II/KG 3 27 16

III/KG 3 27 19

Stab/KG 4 He 111H 3 3

I/KG 4 26 23

II/KG 4 25 19

III/KG 4 35 18

KGr zbV 105 Ju 52 38 25

KGr zbV 500 40 15

KGr zbV 700 26 14

Note: 13. (Slow.)/JG 52 not in source material.

Norway and Finland

Unit Aircraft Total Svcble

Luftflotte 5

1., 3/JG 5 Fw 190A 35 28

2./JG 5 Bf 109F-2

II/JG 5 35 25

III/JG 5 Bf 109E/F 23 17

IV/JG 5 Fw 190A 26 20

13. (Z.)/JG 5 Bf 110E/F 12 7

I/KG 30 Ju 88A 35 29

II/KG 30 37 29

III/KG 30 36 32

I/StG 5 Ju 87B/R 43 39

KüFlGr 406 Bv 138A 26 22

He 115B/C

KüFlGr 906 Bv 138A 6 6

He 115B/C 8 6

KGr zbV 108 Ju 52 39 23

Ju 52/See

Note: Some sources show IV/JG 5 with Bf 109s at this date.

The Mediterranean

Unit Aircraft Total Svcble

Luftflotte 2

Stab/JG 27 Bf 109 3 2

I/JG 27 23 15

II/JG 27 24 16

III/JG 27 20 7

Stab/JG 53 4 4

II/JG 53 30 20

III/JG 53 26 12

2, 3./JG 77 25 18

III/ZG 26 Bf 110 25 18

10./ZG 26 Do 17Z 9 4

I/NJG 2 Ju 88C 30 8

Stab/LG 1 Ju 88A 1 0

I/LG 1 28 11

II/LG 1 26 13

I/KG 26 He 111 36 27

II/KG 26 31 8

III/KG 26 Ju 88A 29 20

Stab/KG 54 2 1

I/KG 54 28 6

Stab/KG 77 3 0

II/KG 77 27 5

III/KG 77 27 12

II/KG 100 He 111H 25 12

KGr 806 Ju 88A 18 8

Stab/StG 3 Bf 110 4 2

I/StG 3 Ju 87 22 11

II/StG 3 29 14

III/StG 3 32 17

III/KG zbV 1 Ju 52 32 17

IV/KG zbV 1 50 26

KGr zbV 400 28 14

KGr zbV 600 38 29

KGr zbV 800 32 11

The West

Unit Aircraft Total Svcble

Luftflotte 3

Stab/JG 2 Fw 190A 4 3

I/JG 2 36 29

II/JG 2 37 34

III/JG 2 39 31

10. (Jabo)/JG 2 15 11

11. (höhen)/JG 2 Bf 109G-1 9 8

Stab/JG 26 Fw 190A 4 4

I/JG 26 38 28

II/JG 26 41 36

III/JG 26 36 33

10. (Jabo)/JG 26 15 12

Stab/KG 2 Do 217E 2 2

I/KG 2 29 21

II/KG 2 26 15

III/KG 2 35 29

I/KG 40 He 177A 30 16

II/KG 40 Do 217 30 28

III/KG 40 Fw 200C 20 11

Ju 88C 4 1

KGr 106 Ju 88A 31 23

KGr 606 18 6

Germany and Denmark

Unit Aircraft Total Svcble

Luftwaffenbefehlshaber Mitte

Stab/JG 1 Fw 190A 4 4

I/JG 1 37 34

II/JG 1 38 28

III/JG 1 40 22

IV/JG 1 29 28

Stab/NJG 1 Bf 110 3 2

I/NJG 1 19 14

II/NJG 1 15 15

Do 217 14 7

III/NJG 1 Bf 110 15 15

Do 217 3 1

Stab/NJG 2 Ju 88C 3 1

II/NJG 2 Bf 110 23 17

Do 215 6 5

Do 217 10 1

III/NJG 2 Ju 88C 20 13

Do 217 15 7

Stab/NJG 3 Bf 110 2 1

I/NJG 3 20 16

Do 217 3 1

II/NJG 3 Bf 110 24 21

Do 217 9 6

III/NJG 3 Bf 110 31 24

Do 217 1 1

Stab/NJG 4 Bf 110 1 1

II/NJG 4 15 8

III/NJG 4 19 13

Do 217 7 5

I/KG zbV 1 Ju 52 52 35

KGr zbV 172 52 10

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

17 May 43

Serviceable Aircraft Strengths

Single-engined fighters 980

Twin-engined day fighters 114

Night fighters 378

Fighter-bombers 216

Specialized ground attack aircraft 61

Dive-bombers 413

Twin-engined bombers 1269

Four-engined bombers 33

Long-range reconaissance aircraft 215

Short-range and army cooperation aircraft 251

Coastal aircraft 149

Transport aircraft 414

Total 4641

Russia

Unit Aircraft Total Svcble

Luftflotte 1

Stab/JG 54 Fw 190A 4 4

I/JG 54 36 30

II/JG 54 Bf 109G 40 40

10. (Jabo)/JG 54 Fw 190A 9 3

Nachtjagd Schwarm Bf 109 5 1

Stab/KG 53 He 111H 4 4

I/KG 53 37 37

III/KG 53 37 33

15. (kroat.)/KG 3 Do 17Z 12 12

I/StG 5 Ju 87D 51 51

Störkampfstaffeln Luftflotte 1

1. Staffel Fw 58 21 19

He 46

Ar 66

Go 145

2. Staffel Fw 58 20 13

He 46

Ar 66

3. Staffel Fw 58 21 15

He 46

Ar 66

Go 145

4. Staffel Fw 58 22 19

He 46

Ar 66

Luftflotte 4

II/JG 3 Bf 109G 40 24

III/JG 3 35 20

Stab/JG 52 4 2

I/JG 52 38 17

II/JG 52 28 14

III/JG 52 37 22

13. (slow.)/JG 52 ? ?

15. (kroat.)/JG 52 10 6

10./ZG 1 Bf 110 12 7

Stab/SchG 1 Fw 190A 6 6

I/SchG 1 41 32

4./SchG 1 Hs 129B 10 9

II/SchG 1 Fw 190A 25 17

7./SchG 1 Hs 123A 12 8

8./SchG 1 Hs 129B 12 11

Panzerjäger Staffel/JG 51 16 14

Stab/KG 3 Ju 88A 1 0

I/KG 3 37 27

II/KG 3 31 13

Stab/KG 27 He 111H 2 0

I/KG 27 34 13

II/KG 27 23 15

14. (Eis.)/KG 27 9 6

III/KG 51 Ju 88A 21 11

Stab/KG 55 He 111H 4 4

I/KG 55 19 13

II/KG 55 30 19

III/KG 55 33 20

I/KG 100 37 35

Stab/StG 2 Ju 87D 3 2

Ju 88 6 6

I/StG 2 Ju 87D 30 23

II/StG 2 26 20

III/StG 2 34 27

Stab/StG 3 2 2

I/StG 3 38 22

III/StG 3 3 16

Stab/StG 77 3 2

Ju 88 6 6

I/StG 77 Ju 87D 39 33

II/StG 77 39 30

III/StG 77 39 24

Störkampfstaffeln Luftflotte 4

1. Staffel He 46 13 5

Do 17Z

2. Staffel Ar 66 8 3

W.34

Fw 189A

3. Staffel Go 145 16 1

4. Staffel Fw 58 5 2

Go 145

Ar 66

5. Staffel Hs 126 14 7

He 46

6. Staffel Go 145 16 15

Note: Source missed 13. (slow.)/JG 52.

Luftflotte 6

I/JG 26 Fw 190A 36 30

Stab/JG 51 14 11

I/JG 51 39 20

III/JG 51 40 21

IV/JG 51 28 20

15. (span.)/JG 51 Bf 109G 16 6

Stab/ZG 1 Bf 110 2 2

I/ZG 1 38 30

Nachtjagd Schwarm Ju 88C 4 2

Stab/KG 1 Ju 88A 4 4

I/KG 1 20 0

III/KG 1 37 18

Stab/KG 4 He 111H 1 0

II/KG 4 37 23

III/KG 4 37 23

II/KG 51 Ju 88A 37 28

Stab/StG 1 Bf 110 6 5

Ju 87D 1 1

II/StG 1 39 35

III/StG 1 39 36

Störkampfstaffeln Luftflotte 6

1. Staffel Fw 58 19 18

He 46

Ar 66

2. Staffel Go 145 20 18

3. Staffel Fw 58 14 13

Ar 66

Korps Transport Staffel Ju 52 8 4

Finland and Norway

Unit Aircraft Total Svcble

Luftflotte 5

Stab/JG 5 Fw 190A 2 2

I/JG 5 Fw 190A 35 23

Bf 109G-2

II/JG 5 Fw 190A 23 20

III/JG 5 Bf 109F-4/G-2 26 24

IV/JG 5 Fw 190A 40 31

Bf 109F-4/G-2

13. (Z.)/JG 5 Bf 110F/G 12 8

14. (Jabo)/JG 5 Fw 190A 11 7

I/KG 30 Ju 88A 37 32

1./KüFlGr 196 Ar 196 28 25

KüFlGr 406 Bv 138A 26 17

He 115B/C 9 9

1./KüFlGr 706 Bv 138A 6 5

Ar 196 5 5

KüFlGr 906 Bv 138A 8 5

TGr 20 Ju 52 36 27

Ju 52/See 10 4

Korps Transport Staffel Ju 52 8 6

He 111 1 1

Note: Some sources say that II/JG 5 operated Bf 109s at this time.

Italy

Unit Aircraft Total Svcble

Luftflotte 2

Stab/JG 27 Bf 109G 1 1

II/JG 27 40 38

III/JG 27 40 40

II/JG 51 40 29

Stab/JG 53 4 3

I/JG 53 36 8

II/JG 53 34 10

III/JG 53 38 24

Stab/JG 77 4 3

I/JG 77 22 5

II/JG 77 27 11

III/JG 77 23 0

II/ZG 1 Bf 110 32 8

III/ZG 1 Me 210A 15 6

III/ZG 26 Bf 110 29 20

10./ZG 26 Ju 88C 12 12

Stab/NJG 2 1 1

I/NJG 2 18 8

II/NJG 2 11 10

II/SchG 2 Fw 190A 22 4

8./SchG 2 Hs 129B 10 10

III/SKG 10 Fw 190A 20 2

Stab/LG 1 Ju 88A 1 1

I/LG 1 37 29

II/LG 1 31 10

II/KG 1 26 14

II/KG 26 He 111H 37 20

III/KG 26 Ju 88A 13 7

Beleuchterstaffel/KG 26 5 0

III/KG 30 32 30

Stab/KG 54 1 1

I/KG 54 20 11

II/KG 54 22 10

III/KG 54 34 16

Stab/KG 76 2 2

I/KG 76 36 2

III/KG 76 32 23

II/KG 77 26 20

III/KG 77 20 14

III/TG 1 Ju 52 35 13

IV/TG 1 33 9

I/TG 5 Me 323 21 10

II/TG 5 12 7

TGr 30 He 111 52 16

Savoia Staffel SM.82 6 9

Seetransport Staffel Ju 52/See 12 7

Ju 90/Ju 290 Staffel Ju 90 7 3

Ju 290

Korps Transport Staffel Ju 52 7 5

The Balkans

Luftwaffenkommando Süd Ost

I/JG 4 Bf 109G 40 40

The West

Unit Aircraft Total Svcble

Luftflotte 3

Stab/JG 2 Fw 190A 4 4

I/JG 2 40 40

II/JG 2 24 18

III/JG 2 40 37

10. (Jabo)/JG 2 Bf 109 13 8

11. /JG 2 14 9

12./JG 2 15 12

Stab/JG 26 Fw 190A 4 4

II/JG 26 40 40

III/JG 26 40 35

11. (Jabo)/JG 54 16 9

Stab/SKG 10 6 6

I/SKG 10 42 42

II/SKG 10 40 38

IV/SKG 10 30 23

Stab/KG 2 Do 217E/K 2 2

I/KG 2 Do 217E/K/M 21 8

II/KG 2 Do 217E/K 26 26

Me 410 9 3

III/KG 2 Do 217K 18 17

Stab/KG 40 He 177A 1 0

II/KG 40 Do 217K 21 19

V/KG 40 Ju 88C 37 28

I/KG 66 Do 217 23 7

Korps Transport Staffel LeO 451 6 1

Note: Balke's KG 2 history shows no Me 410s assigned to II/KG 2 in May '43.

Germany and Denmark

Unit Aircraft Total Svcble

Luftwaffenbefehlshaber Mitte

Stab/JG 1 Fw 190A 3 1

I/JG 1 31 27

Bf 109G 7 0

II/JG 1 Fw 190A 39 31

Stab/JG 3 Bf 109G 3 3

I/JG 3 40 17

I/JG 11 Fw 190A 40 27

II/JG 11 Bf 109G 54 27

I/JG 27 37 24

III/JG 54 45 41

Stab/NJG 1 Bf 110 4 4

I/NJG 1 27 20

Do 215B 1 0

II/NJG 1 Bf 110 26 17

Do 217 6 3

III/NJG 1 Bf 110 23 20

IV/NJG 1 22 16

Do 215B 2 2

Stab/NJG 3 Bf 110 2 2

I/NJG 3 11 11

Do 217 11 9

II/NJG 3 29 20

III/NJG 3 Bf 110 23 18

IV/NJG 3 Ju 88C 25 22

Stab/NJG 4 Bf 110 1 1

I/NJG 4 22 19

Do 217 11 8

II/NJG 4 Bf 110 22 20

Do 217 11 11

III/NJG 4 Bf 110 24 22

Do 217 6 5

IV/NJG 4 Bf 110 23 23

Do 217 3 3

Stab/NJG 5 Bf 110 2 1

I/NJG 5 26 26

II/NJG 5 19 17

Do 217 2 1

IV/NJG 5 Bf 110 18 18

Ju 88C 15 11

I/KG 3 Ju 88A 37 29

I/KG 6 31 21

II/KG 6 20 15

III/KG 6 34 28

I/KG 26 He 111H 19 10

II/KG 27 37 28

I/KG 40 He 177A 12 10

Fw 200C 6 1

III/KG 40 He 177A 12 12

Fw 200C 11 2

I/KG 50 He 177A 29 4

II/KG 53 He 111H 13 0

II/KG 76 Ju 88A 5 3

II/KG 100 Do 217 37 0

III/KG 100 35 11

I/TG 1 Ju 52 22 16

II/TG 1 49 34

II/TG 2 20 8

III/TG 2 24 12

II/TG 3 50 39

III/TG 3 52 27

IV/TG 3 36 24

I/TG 4 15 5

II/TG 4 51 48

Source:

Alfred Price. Luftwaffe Data Book, 1997.

The Russian Numbers:

January 1, 1942: 21.900 airplanes

January 1, 1943: 34.900 airplanes

January 1, 1944: 46.400 airplanes

January 1, 1945: 59.900 airplanes

May 10, 1945: 64.200 airplanes

Say 1/2 of these faced the germans [these are combat aircraft numbers]. So, max at the front at any time for the Germans is 2000, Russians had minimum of 10,000 on the front. However, remember a lot of these could be obsolete types, and shifting forces for an attack [operational] could give one side or the other a higher value on a specific section of the front.

Rune

[TheHumanMage]

Rune I dont understand any of the numbers except the ones at the very end which are of built aircraft per year

Rune the Soviets built 25k planes during 1942 so they could not have had 25k planes deployed at the front during jan 1942!

Rune on the first of october 1941 over Moscow the VVS had 677 planes and the Luftwaffe had 950 planes, so the VVS could not have 25K planes deployed during jan 42!

Now please if you have the numbers please post deployed aircraft during each month, not built aircraft per year.

I am not intrested in BUILT but DEPLOYED aircraft.

Fill in the blanks

The VVS had BLANK planes deployed in aug 1941, in oct 41 in nov 41 in dec 41 and so on

The luftwaffe had BLANK planes deployed in aug 41 in oct 41 in nov 41 in dec 41 and so on

[Guest Mike]

You must be joking - you dont' understand the numbers but you are arguing about numbers??

Rune's posting is clear - there are lines in it that give the total numbers of a/c at various points in time.

I am guessing that English is not your 1st language, but the numbers are pretty damned simple - there are total numbers for 1941, 1952, and 1943 that I can see.

you are the one saying het Soviets had fewer a/c than the LW - where is YOUR evidence of that?

[rune]

That is aircraft at one sector, the numbers given are in combat units, and NOT ones built.

For example, let us look at 1942.

At the end of this volume {Black Cross, Red Star] are detailed descriptions of the dramatic large-scale air battles during the German offensives at Kharkov and against

Sevastopol in May and June 1942, where the scope of losses for both sides is mind-boggling. In this period, the Soviet Military Air Force, or VVS, lost

6976 aircraft and the Germans 1170, resulting in the astonishingly high claims recorded by Germany's many aces by war's end. Eric Hartmann's 352

claims for example, should not be scoffed at when you read this account.

So...if the German out numbered the Russians, and the figured supplied by the Germans themselves say about 2000 aircraft on the Eastern Front was the high point, how did they shoot down over 6000 aircraft in 2 months? This would mean the Russians had more aircraft then the Germans.

Let us look at Stalingrad, From Flight Leader:

Dear David, In answer to your question about the ratio of aircraft present during the November Stalingrad operations, these are the figures. The Luftwaffe had approximately 1,200 aircraft, against the VVS' total of 1,414 aircraft, of which 413 were Yak-1, LaGG-3 and a few MiG-3 fighters, an approximate 12% superiority in the Soviet's favor. No where near a giant majority in overall strength.

In answer to your query about Soviet aircraft losses during this period, the Soviet's losses fell into the Defensive period which was 2,063 aircraft, and the Offensive period which was 706 aircraft lost. The German aerial victory claims during this period can be understood because of the overwhelming replacements of the GKO's strategic reserves of modern aircraft types.

Your point made about the FAF's ability to score phenomenal scores against the VVS can be explained easily by a number of examples. When a static defence is chosen, and the implementation of overwhelming aerial assets when and where a commander chooses, aerial superiority and victory are often assured. Examples being the Luftwaffe's success in their assault against Russia's static defences in June 1941, the RAF in the Battle of Britain, the Flying Tigers in Burma and China, the Japanese in their 1941 and 1942 conquest of the Pacific, and the US Navy's fighter tactics between the Guadalcanal and Midway campaigns.

Exact number, Russians have more aircraft.

Here are the figures for 1943

a/c at beginning of year / replacements / Aircraft lost / Aircraft at end of year

bombers / 5300 / 5100 / 3600 / 6800

ground attack / 5000 / 11000 / 7200 / 8800

fighters / 11600 / 17000 / 11700 / 16900

total / 21900 / 33100 / 22500 / 32500

A lot of these were obsolete, or in training squadrons, but basically out numbered the German by far.

Rune

[Guest Mike]

The Soviet concept of air superiority was quite different to the Western one too.

The Soviets were unconcerned about preventing LW operations across wide areas of the front - they were only concerned about being able to attack and defend in those areas where they so chose.

their "Air Army" reorganisation from 1942 allowed them to do this - transferring sub-units between the air armies with great ease (each air army was attached to and subordinate to a "land" army) to achieve local superiority virtually at will.

of course the LW had a similar ability - but it was new to the VVS and greatly increased its overall effectiveness compared the the 1941-early 42 organisation which had hte airforce as a seperate service on a par with the army.

[Zanadu]

Mage

If the Germans had the superiority in troops and equipement you claim, they would have won. They had superior combat doctrine for both infantry and armor throughout the war.

Only the British came close in infantry doctrine, by copying the German tactical system, substituting the Bren gun for the German MG. Only the US came close in Armor tactics, also by shamelessly copying the Germans.

I notice that your British professor claims the Soviets improved their armored forces by introducing radios. Unfortunately they didn't go nearly far enough. A WW2 Soviet tank company (ten tanks) had only four ratios, and three of those were only receivers (the platoon leaders) while only one (the company commander) had a transmitter-receiver. That means that six of ten tanks was limited to following their leader and shooting at what their leader shot at. Better than no radios at all, but far behind the flexibility of any force in which ALL tanks had transmitter-receivers. It also means that the loss of the company commander removed the entire company from higher-level control.

The German army managed something that was probably unique for the armed forces of a totalitarian state -- retaining and encouraging a high level of individual initiative in its troops at all levels, right down to the private soldier. Generally, dictatorships try to discourage the people who carry the guns from thinking very much. The WW2 Soviet system certainly did.

[TheHumanMage]

RUNE

Rune your numbers are great BUT do it for every month and for both sides and dont start in 1943! And you will see that some months the Luftwaffe had many more planes then the VVS because if the Soviets lose 6000 planes and the Axis only lose 1 thousand planes this means that the Axis have a lead by 5 thousand for the next month.

You only look at one point in time and then forget to look at the point after

Lets say I have 10k planes and you have 8k planes

If I lose 6k planes then I have 4 k planes if you lose 1k planes then you have 7 k planes which means you outnumber me

So if the Germans can replace their losses and the Soviets can not then the Germans have more planes.

The Soviet airforce was wiped out in 1941

The axis had more planes because the Soviets were wiped out this is simple logic

Now if the Soviets lost 6 k planes in 2 months then after those 2 months they would have 6 k planes less which would mean that the Axis outnumbered them!

Zanadu

And to Zanadu it is clear you know nothing about ww2 if you would go to a uni you would get a big F

I told you about losses and natural resources the Nazies had many times more natural resources and Labour you seem to forget that also you forget total military dead for both sides!

Zanadu your biggest problem is that you only know about operation barbarossa and ignore everything else.

You must understand Zanadu that everything you belive to know is wrong, it is as simple as that

Total Soviet Military DEAD 8.6 million

Total Euro Axis Dead on the eastern front 5.5 million

Total Soviet Casulties 1941 3 million dead 3 million captured 56% of all captured died = 4.5 million dead 1941

Total Axis DEAD 1941 500k

Total Axis DEAD 1942-45 - 5 million (5.5-0.5)

Total Soviet DEAD 1942-45 - 4.1 million (8.6-4.5)

The Soviet doctrine became equall to the Germans during 43 and superior during late 44.

You know absolutley ZERO of what happened after 1941 ZANADU

And the AXIS did have superior number of solider untill 1943 this part is the biggest part which your brain cant process

Say after me : The Axis had more soliders then the Soviets untill mid 1943.

Zanadu you cant understand that if you lose 6 million Soldiers in 6 months and you enemy only losses 500k then there is no chans in hell that you can match his numbers for some time.

Just look it up! That is your biggest problem you dont look anything up and claim alot of BS Zanadu look up the numbers

And calling a British professor Wrong is just plain stupid he didnt become a professor because he knows nothing.

[ September 28, 2006, 03:17 AM: Message edited by: TheHumanMage ]

[rune]

I give up, you ignore what people write.

Rune your numbers are great BUT do it for every month and for both sides and you will see that some month the Luftwaffe had many more planes then the VVS because if the Soviets lose 6000 planes and the Axis only lose 1 thousand planes this means that the Axis have a lead by 5 thousand for the next month.

How the hell did you come up with that? The Maximum the Germans had at any time is 2 thousand. In your example, if the Russins lost 5000, and the Germans lost 1000, it means each had 1000 at the end. Since you do not want to make an attempt to understand, I wash my hands on this.

Rune

[TheHumanMage]

Rune! I read everything people write look you wrote

In this period, the Soviet Military Air Force, or VVS, lost 6976 aircraft and the Germans 1170

Then the month after that the Germans would have more then the Soviets right? And This means that the Germans would outnumber the Soviets for some time.

[Inigo Montoya]

Originally posted by rune:

I give up, you ignore what people write.

...Since you do not want to make an attempt to understand, I wash my hands on this.

Rune

To Rune,

One by one, people will come over to my way of thinking about TheHumanMage. Poor Rune, you put so much time and effort into providing data and numbers. This fellow ignores data, logic, and reasoned argument. His references to receiving an F and his slavish adherence to Professor Overy make me suspect he is a university student. His mind is programmed at this point in his life to blindly accept what his professors tell him. Later in life, he will come to be able to evaluate data for himself and might then be able to make an attempt to understand or listen. Until that time, I'm predicting one by one members of this forum will join us in ignoring TheHumanMage.

[TheHumanMage]

The only one who ignores data and logic is you Inigo Montoya

You ignore the fact that the Germans had 5 times more natural resources you ignore the fact that the Soviet army was smaller then the Axis untill 1943 you ignore pure logic

The only one who has a programmed mind is you Inigo Montoya with your neo nazist way of thinking that for every German 1 million Soviets died.

The Germans had 5 times more natural resources you ignore this

The Germans had 2 times the labour you ignore this

The Soviets had by the end of 41 40% of its population in German hands you ignore this

It is you Inigo Montoya who ignore everything

Why dont you go to any university in any country and try to pass this BS theory of the Soviets beeing numerous and see how far you get, I dare you

[ September 28, 2006, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: TheHumanMage ]

[Zanadu]

Mage

I have university degree in history, and my grades in the subject were quite adequate, thank you. I would be interested in know where your numbers came from, and how current the sources. There is still a lot of propaganda numbers put out by the old Soviet Union before its fall, that have long been discredited since the original records were opened. They understated Soviet wartime casualties by something over fifty percent.

The Eastern front is not my specialty and I don't have the proper souces at hand, but it is my understanding from past reading that the ratio of losses in actual combat between Soviet and German troops for the war overall was on the order of eight or ten to one, and for the Barbarrosa period, about fifteen to one. It was about three to one between US troops and the Germans.

My statements on German tactics are correct. My knowledge of Soviet doctrine is limited to more recent periods (1970s-80s), but their lack of a proper NCO corps leads me to doubt that they were anywhere near the level of the Germans.

[TheHumanMage]

Zanadu The only propaganda is the German one which you trumpet so loudly

Zanadu Any fact book published in any year after 2000 will show you production numbers just pick up any encyclopedia of any country and see for your self.

Zanadu Ten to one is pure nazi propaganda this was only during Barbarossa

Zanadu Look the Axis lost 5.5 million soldiers in the East if it were ten to one this would mean the Soviets lost 55 million Soldiers

Total Soviet War losses were 8.6 million DEAD look it up. And out of those 3,6 million died in camps 5 million in combat.

As I have Said total Axis Dead 5.5 million (500k During the first 6 months)

Total Soviet Dead 8.6 million ( 3 million Dead and 3 million Captured during the first 6 months 56% of all Soviet POW died in camps = 4.5 million Dead during the first 6 months.)

Your knowledge of Soviet doctrine = ZERO you only know what Germans sources say and they talk ONLY about Barbarossa.

Ten to one where the hell is your logic?

If total Axis DEAD are military 5.5 million in the east and total military Soviet are 8.6 million where the hell do you get the fantasy 10 to one number?

Zanadu You need to Read David Glantz he is an American Officer who has written many books about the Svoiet War effort during ww2, read his books When Titans Clashed: How the Red Army Stopped Hitler. He has written many books and all are good.

[ September 28, 2006, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: TheHumanMage ]

[Guest Mike]

We've published production figures which all show that the Soviets built a lot more a/c (and everythign else) than the Germans - why do you keep demanding them?

I have no idea what hte number of dead has to do with anythign at all - no-one has argued thathet Soviets lost fewer people - personally I think you number of Soviet dead is only about 30% of what they actually suffered - some 25-30 million seems more likely, of which about 50% were military.

but that aside I really hve no idea what you are trying to say any more.

You started by saying that teh soviets were not "numerous" - but you've contradicted that now by saying elsewhere that they built more stuff.

so what is your point?

[TheHumanMage]

Soviet Dead

8,6 million Military

20 million Civilians

Grand Total 28 million

The Aircraft ratio is intresting during aug 41 for every month untill aug 43 because in the vast majority of those months the VVS was smaller then the Luftwaffe

When the user who said the Soviets were numerous said the soviet were numerous that user meant that the Soviets had many times more men resources and materials then the axis which is completely wrong

The axis had more resources but built high cost items the Soviets built low cost items that is why the Soviets were able to build more items and win the war.

The Soviets did not have a limitless supply of men nor did the Soviets suffer a death ratio of ten to one for every german dead

The Soviets had less Soldiers deployed untill 1943

The Soviets had less resources

The Soviets had less labour.

[Guest Mike]

So you have no point - well you've taken a bloody long time so say nothing useful at all!

[TheHumanMage]

My points are many

1 the axis had more resources

2 The Soviets didnt win because they had limtless supply of men and materials

3 The axis had more men deployed untill 1943

4 This myth about overwhelming numbers of tanks, guns, and rockets followed by waves of ill-trained but limitless "cannon fodder" which served mainly, it would appear, to use up all the German ammunition. Is wrong

[Sixxkiller]

Found this......

The Soviet victory owed a great deal to the ability of her war industry to outperform the German economy, despite the enormous loss of population and land. The Stalinist five year plans of the 1930s had resulted in the industrialization of the Urals and central Asia. In 1941, the trains that shipped troops to the front were used to evacuate thousands of factories from Belorussia and the Ukraine to safe areas far from the front lines.

As the Soviet Union's manpower reserves ran low from 1943 onwards, the great Soviet offensives had to depend more equipment and less on the expenditure of lives. The increases in production of war materiel were achieved at the expense of civilian living standards — the most thorough application of the principle of total war — and with the help of Lend-Lease supplies from the United Kingdom and the United States.

Germany, unable to compete on quantity (in 1943, the Soviet Union manufactured 24,000 tanks to Germany's 13,000) adopted a strategy of competing on quality. This led to highly successful designs such as the huge Tiger tank and the anti-tank panzerfaust. These enabled German soldiers to continue to fight at considerable numerical disadvantage until the huge losses in 1944 used up the last German manpower and materiel reserves.

[Guest Mike]

Yep - Soviet citizens did not have a comfortable life, whereas I read recently that 1 million German women were still working as hair stylists in 1943......I imagine that number if somewhat high, but hte point is clear!!