I am looking into the exact numbers of Luftwaffe VS VVS and will report what I find

[TheHumanMage]

I am looking into the exact numbers of Luftwaffe VS VVS and will report what I find here

So far I know to 100% that untill late 1943 the Luftwaffe hade more planes the the Soviets at any given time.

I will look up when the turn happened and if possible post numbers of avalible air craft each month during the war for both sides.

[Sixxkiller]

But what you arent understanding is that no matter what you find, not one word will change. Whereas if you had been a gentlemen and simply said well I think you are wrong can you please look into it, then you would have maybe had me write a different description. Not one other person has had a problem with it so until someone else thinks it should change, it wont. Got that sunshine?

[Rastakyle]

Originally posted by Sixxkiller:

But what you arent understanding is that no matter what you find, not one word will change. Whereas if you had been a gentlemen and simply said well I think you are wrong can you please look into it, then you would have maybe had me write a different description. Not one other person has had a problem with it so until someone else thinks it should change, it wont. Got that sunshine?

And rightfully so...the humanpainintheass is really adding alot to this community.

Sarcasm off.

[TheHumanMage]

Well if you dont change it after seeing the numbers then you are no better then any other company and you are commiting historical fraud. And since I cant change time I will just have to work from the place I am at.

But a like the nick sunshine

[Sixxkiller]

Lets see the numbers shall we?

Total Fighter Aircraft PRODUCED during war

Soviet Union = 63,087

Germany = 55,727

That would seem to be more than the Germans, but when I was in college maybe I missed something. But you recall I am a retard.

That said, simple quantisation of the energies involved to formulate this opinion would also have to take into account that the Germans after Kursk had also lost a big portion of thier oil refining capability as some of the Allies got it into thier head to bomb the hell out of thier facilities, hence leading to you guessed it, less oil for stuff like planes and good stuff like that. Whats that, you dont know what quantisation means? Well gee sunshine you must not be Einstien.

Now you know what, less oil doesnt lead to less production of aircraft and the funny thing is you are right, the silly Germans actually did increase production of airplanes in 1943!!! I am such a Nazi propagandist. Oh wait I forgot, the Soviets also increased production to a scale Germany couldnt even dream of matching as the Soviet production wasnt getting bombed to oblivion and they had a country just a wee bit more rich with raw materials. Now dont forget an evil empire called America sending them party favors and apple pie.

Oh also sunshine, are you telling me you dont know the exact figures but yet you come here and tell me I have no clue what I am saying? Now who again is commiting historical fraud? Or do you just make it up as you go?

And just so you know, I DO NOT WORK FOR BATTLEFRONT NOR DO I WORK FOR DVG. I am sexy though.

And thankfully I just wrote the description for Leningrad 4x campaigns, a kiwi super computer of flight information and WWII knowledge actually designed the campaign, and believe me when I say EVERYTHING I DO HE FINDS FAULT WITH, so since he didnt say, "Sexy Sixx you write a pile of ****" I will just continue to hold my ground on this.

And just so you know, I call my female puppy Sunshine from time to time, so you can maybe try to draw a popular description of a female dog from the nickname "Sunshine". Maybe not so complmentary as you thought, but what do I know I am a retard right?

[rune]

Enought Gentlemen, do not make me put in the heavy hand.

By January of 1944, most operations of the Luftwaffe were shut down in the East. This was due to 3 over-whelming facts.

1. Aircraft were withdrawn fron the fronts to defend Germany.

2. fuel was starting to be a problem.

3. Pilot training had deteroriated to the point an average pilot was getting 25-40 hours of flight time.

For those interested in the numbers, see:

Luftwaffe numbers

Rune

[rune]

Some numbers of the VVS

Post subject:

According to the book: Russia and the USSR in Battles of the 20th Centry - Losses in the Armed Forces, Moscow, 2001, the following lists the number of combat aircraft overall and the number in the active air armies (in thousands). All dates are on Jan 1st except for 1941, which is June 22nd:

1941 - 20.0 / 9.2

1942 - 12.0 / 5.4

1943 - 21.9 / 12.3

1944 - 32.5 / 13.4

1945 - 43.3 / 21.5

let's say 1/2 are fighting the Germans, that is about 6,600 Combat aircraft facing the Germans.

German numbers say about 1600 combat aircraft on the Eastern front during Jan. 1944.

Rune

[Zanadu]

It's clear enough that Soviet a/c production exceeded TOTAL German a/c production for the war, and while the Germaan's had most (but not all) of their combat air units on the Russian Front in 1941, these were increasingly diverted to other fronts, and (particularly) home defense as the war went on.

By 1943 the Soviets clearly outnumbered the Luftwaffe over the Eastern front, and by 1944 the numberical difference was rapidly becoming overwhelming.

It seems to be that 'Mage' is getting very badly bent out of shape because he doesn't approve of some wording. That sort of thing is always worth of debate, but evidence and argument don't really require so much increase in blood pressure.

[Guest Mike]

German production was about 100,000, Soviet about 157,000. Plus the Sov's got about 14,000 lendlease.

German production had to be spread across all its theatres of course - Soviet production had no such problems.

However Soviet production does include a lot a "crap" not to put too fine a point on it. they were still producing I-16's up until early 1942 - anything was better than nothing at all (same reason the Brits kept producing 2 pdrs after Dunkirk), plus an unknown number of U-2/Po-2 utility a/c often used as night harrassment bombers and included in stats for "Bombers" available at any point in time!!

Some basic numbers tho, for "good" fighters:

Yak-1: Almost 9000

Yak-7: about 6400

Yak-9: : 16000 or so

Yak-3: Almost 5000

LaGG-3: 6250 (plus 100 LaGG-1's)

La-5: 9900

La-7: 5700

Mig-1/3: 100/1200(?)

Lend Lease fighters:

P-40: 2100

P-39: 5000

P-47: 200

P-63: 2300

Spitfire: 1300 (1100 were LF IX's)

Hurricane: 3000

Compared to:

Me-109: 35000 all types

FW-190A - 13,000+ (all types)

FW-190F - 4250 (ish)

Fw-190G - 800(ish)

Fw-190D/Ta-152: 750-800/150

[Guest Mike]

I have some partial figures for VVS strengths from "Red Phoenix - The Rise of Soviet Air Power 1941-45" - unfortunately the totals only for 1 Jan 1945 in Europe for the operational Aircraft of Frontal aviation (ie excluding the PVO and Marine):

13th Air Army (Leningrad) 481 a/c

15th (2nd Baltic Front) 415

3rd (1st Baltic) 1172

1st (3rd Belorussian) 1286

4th (2d Bel) 1481

16th (1st Bel) 2396

2nd (1st Ukrainian) 2273

8th (4th Uk) 499

5th (2nd Uk) 645

17th (3rd Uk) 882

Comprising 5184 fighters, 3845 Ground Attack, 1857 bomber and 644 other a/c (11530 total), in 29 Corps, 121 Divisions and 24 independant Regiments.

An example is given of 1 Air army, the 16th, and its strengths at the start of various campaigns:

</font>

• 9/4/42 (Defensive at Stalingrad) - 42 fighters, 79 grd attack, 31 bombers of all types (152 total)</font>
• 11/19/42 (Stalingrad offensive) 125 fight, 103 ga, 93 bomb, 7 recon, 13 other (342)</font>
• 1/10/43 (Stalingrad air blockade) 215 fighter, 103 ga, 106 day bomber, 87 night bomb, 75 other (585)</font>
• 6/5/43 (Kursk) 455 fight, 341 ga, 260 gay bomb, 74 night bomb, 22 recon (1052)</font>
• 9/1/43 (Kiev) 263 fighter, 150 ga, 183 db, 130 nb, 14 recce (740)</font>
• 6/24/44 (Belorusia) 1108 fighter, 661 ga, 331 db, 149 nb, 70 recce (2319)</font>
• 1/1/45 (Vistula-Oder) 1116 fight, 710 ga, 330 db, 174 nb, 91 recce (2421)</font>
• 4/15/45 (Berlin) 1548 fighters, 687 ga, 533 db, 151 nb, 114 recce (3033)</font>

The figures for 1/1/45 differ for these 2 sets of data for the 16th air army - they are noted as coming from 2 different Russian sources.

edit: I forgot the bomber total in the Frontal Aviation stats above.

[ September 26, 2006, 03:59 AM: Message edited by: Stalin's Organist ]

[Zanadu]

Good job finding the numbers, Stalin. And, actually, the German production figures are somewhat deceptive in judging real air strength. A disproportionate percentage were produced very late in the war, when the Luftwaffe didn't have pilots to put in them, or enough fuel to keep the pilots they did have in the air.

During the last months, the Germans didn't make much effort to repair a/c with more than minor damage, just parked them and drew replacements. They had the fighter a/c coming out their ears, but that didn't help them put enough in the air to do any real good.

Non-fighter types were often deliberately parked in the open to bait straffing allied fighters into 'flak traps' as due to the lack of pilots and fuel, they weren't useful for anything else.

[TheHumanMage]

You are mising the big part Yes the Soviets produced more planes but they started from a low number both sides didnt start from 0

The red air force was almost completly wiped out during 1941

During 1941 from August untill 1943 december the Luftwaffe outnumbered the Soviets at any give time on th eastern front

Yes the Soviets produced more but they started from a lower number and lost more

And the VVS losses exceded Axis losses so the axis had more planes avalible at any given time untill 1944

And as I have posted before production numbers of raw materials and labour

First number is German second number is Soviet numbers are from Richard Overy's The Dictators

Coal (million tonnes)

1941 315.5 - 151.4

1942 317.9 - 75.5

1943 340.4 - 93.1

1944 347.6 - 121.5

Steel (million tonnes)

1941 28.2 - 17.9

1942 28.7 - 8.1

1943 30.6 - 8.5

1944 25.8 - 10.9

Aluminium (thousand tonnes)

1941 233.6 - –

1942 264.0 - 51.7

1943 250.0 - 62.3

1944 245.3 - 82.7

Labour

1941 16,400,000 - 11,000,000

1942 16,200,000 - 7,250,000

1943 16,800,000 - 7,700,000

1944 18,000,000 - 9,000,000

Look at the numbers and you will see that Germany had MORE then the Soviets throught the whole war

And you guys jump from 1941 to 1944 and skipp 42 and 43

During 1942 the Luftwaffe outnumberd the Soviets atleast 3-5 to one during 43 atleast 3-2 to one

And Sixkiller I told you the numbers before you seem to ignore them and you seem to ignore logic as well

The Soviets started from a much lower number the axis had a greater supply of raw materials except oil.

Soviet losses early in the war exceded Axis losses which added to Axis numerical supperiority.

Dont skip over 1942 and 1943 and go directly from june 1941 to 1944

Dont ignore labour numbers Sixxkiller

Dont ignore resource numbers Sixxkiller

And I am not looking after produced aircraft I know those numbers I am looking for avalible air craft

How many were avalible to both sides in june 1941 july 41 aug 41 oct 41 nov 41 dec 41 jan 42 feb 42 march 42 and so on and so forth

If you lose more planes you will have less planes avalible if you start from a lower number you will have less planes avalible

All you guys skip over those part just as you ignore production numbers of natural resources.

Sixxkiller confirm that you understand that the Axis had a great number of natural resources except oil and a great number of labour then the Soviets I hate haveing to retype the numbers every single time just so that you can ignore them every single time

Sixxkiller confirm that you understand that the red airforce was alsmot completly destroyed during 1941 and so the axis had a great number of planes avalible to them because the luftwaffe had not been wiped out.

Sixxkiller confirm that you understand that the axis did not start from 0 planes

Sixxkiller why is it so hard for you to call the people who made CMBB and get the numbers of avalible aircraft at any given time

And confirm that you understand that the axis had more natural resources then the Soviets throught the whole war

First number is German second number is Soviet numbers are from Richard Overy's The Dictators

Coal (million tonnes)

1941 315.5 - 151.4

1942 317.9 - 75.5

1943 340.4 - 93.1

1944 347.6 - 121.5

Steel (million tonnes)

1941 28.2 - 17.9

1942 28.7 - 8.1

1943 30.6 - 8.5

1944 25.8 - 10.9

Aluminium (thousand tonnes)

1941 233.6 - –

1942 264.0 - 51.7

1943 250.0 - 62.3

1944 245.3 - 82.7

Labour

1941 16,400,000 - 11,000,000

1942 16,200,000 - 7,250,000

1943 16,800,000 - 7,700,000

1944 18,000,000 - 9,000,000

[ September 26, 2006, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: TheHumanMage ]

[Zanadu]

To Mage

Neither side started from zero. The Soviets lost a very great number of a/c in 1941, but were also producing them faster than the Germans. Early war German a/c production was quite low. By the end of the Battle of Britain in 1940 (when the USSR was still a de-facto ally of the Germans) the British alone were out producing them in a/c.

German a/c production went up radically during late 1943 and all of 1944, and a disproportionate amount of their total wartime production came very late. Besides, I have pointed out, by the mid 1943, German a/c losses were higher in the west, and nearly as high in Italy as their losses on the Soviet front. The Soviets were fighting only a fraction of the Luftwaffe by mid 1943 rather than the great majority of it, as they were in 1941.

[TheHumanMage]

They were not allies you ignorance is shown yet again

Non agression pact does not make you allies

Just because I choose not to kill you does not make you my friend

A non agression pact is not a pact of friendship

You ignore everything I type you wrote that the Soviets only won because of numbers I proved this wrong so you ignore it

I proved that the Axis had more resources and labour You ignore that as well

I proved the axis had a great amount of labour you ignore that

You ignore the war during 1941 1942 1943 until aug you ignore everything that does not fit your ant theory

Fact is fact numbers are numbers

Total Soviet military DEAD 8.6 million total axis military dead 5.5 million BUT the Soviets lost 6 million men during the first 6 months 3 million dead 3 million captured half of those would die (total soviet POW 5.6 million out of which 56 would die) compared to around 400k out of 3 million German POW

So 8,6-million - 4.5 million = 4 million DEAD between 1942-1945

Axis losses DEAD during the first 6 months around 500k

5,5 million minus 500k= 5 million DEAD between 1942-1945

The Axis outnumbered the Soviets until aug 143 when it came to men and material this you ignore because it does not fit your ant theory you ignore production numbers which i bet I will have to repost yet again for the millionth time

As I have said I am looking for avalible aircraft numbers for each month during the war and unlike you I do not pick and choose what years to jump from but I am looking for every month

You say the soviets had more resources I proved this wrong

You say the Soviets ran the Germans down because the Soviets had limtless manpower that is just rediculus since the Axis population was about the same as the Soviets untill the Soviets started liberating their areas. Which happened around aug 1943

[ September 26, 2006, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: TheHumanMage ]

[rune]

No, you ignored what I posted. That was the actual aircraft available in Jan 1944, in squadrons at the front. 6000 Russian Combat aircraft vs 1500 German Combat Aircraft. The sources are published books, and if you look at the first link I posted, was a study done for the US military by a university.

The bottom line, most aircraft were pulled from Eastern front due to the three factors I already cited.

I researched CMBO, CMBB, CMAK, and did a lot for Down in Flames.

Production means NOTHING if you don't have the fuel or the pilots and have to defend on three fronts.

Rune

[TheHumanMage]

You are jumping to jan 1944 what about aug 1941 oct 41 nov 41 dec 41 jan 42 feb 42 march 42 and so on you jump to jan 44 what about all the other months?

If you have done the reasearch then please post numbers of aircraft for every month for both sides and not just jump from june 1941 to jan 44

[rune]

Why would I do that? That is not the number of aircraft built, it is the number of aircraft the German's state were stationed along the ENTIRE eastern front, and the total number of Russian aircraft available. If the German's had 45000 aircraft and only 1500 were on the Eastern front, then there were only 1500 the Russians were facing with 6600. You cannot go by total aircraft, since most were defending Germany, or sitting without a pilot or fuel.

It may be a language difference, you aren't understanding, but you only count the aircraft you are actually facing in units. Heck, you should only count the units in that sector.

That may be the problem, you are counting overall, which again, doesn't mean anything at the operational level. At Lenningrad during January 1944, the Germans were operationally outnumbered.

Rune

[rune]

And since you insist there was not a shortare of pilots in 1943, you may be interested in this:

July and August 1943 saw the final collapse of the strategy to slug it out with Allied air forces in peripheral theaters, while the pressure in the west exerted by American bomber crews became almost unbearable. In the great battle around the Russian city of Kursk in early July and then in a series of ferocious struggles in August as the Russians counterattacked, the Luftwaffe formations in the east suffered enormous losses. Similarly, the Anglo-American invasion of Sicily in July forced the Germans into major commitments in the Mediterranean. Finally for the first time, in July and August the American bomber raids reached toward the jugular of German industrial production. In those two months the Luftwaffe wrote off 1032 aircraft in the Mediterranean, 1030 aircraft in the east, and 1151 in the west. Thus, total losses amounted to 3213 from a force structure numbering 7080 aircraft (including noncombat aircraft) in early July.11 (The magnitude and impact of these losses suggest a whole new frame of reference for analysis of the air war. Within this new frame of reference—to cite one obvious example—Eighth Air Force’s unescorted daylight bombing campaign becomes something more than a tactical failure as it is usually presented.)

Total losses of combat aircraft reflect an even more depressing tale. In that two-month period, the Germans wrote off no less than 1313 single-engine fighters; at the beginning of July, they had 1784 single-engine fighters.12 The result of such devastating attrition was that the Germans had to shut down most air operations both in the Mediterranean and in the east. For the remainder of the war, their ground forces would receive little or no air support. Nevertheless, the Luftwaffe now had more than enough on its hands in contesting American daylight raids over the Reich.

The following table indicates the pressures on the force structure throughout l943.13 (See Table I.) What these percentages emphasize is rising levels of German aircraft production had relatively little impact on the war. Allied production was climbing even faster, for the Americans and the British had decided to increase aircraft production well before the Germans. Thus, relatively speaking, the gap between opposing air strengths was growing rather than decreasing despite rising German production.

Table I. German aircraft losses, 1943

Nevertheless, the Luftwaffe extracted a heavy price from the attacking Allied air forces throughout 1943. While the trends may appear clear to the historian, they were not so clear to Allied commanders and certainly not to the aircrews who flew the bombers. Beginning in May, the Eighth Air Force launched raids deeper and deeper into Germany. Aircraft losses immediately reached 20 percent per month and remained at that level (with the exception of September) through October. In the latter month, the number of aircraft written off reached more than one quarter of those present at the beginning of the month.14 Crew losses were even higher because there were fewer crews on duty than aircraft. Table II suggests not only the level of losses but the impact that overwhelming American production of trained crews and aircraft had on the balance of air forces in Western Europe.15 Despite high monthly loss rates, the Eighth Air Force’s strength steadily grew. Nevertheless, the second terrible drubbing over Schweinfurt in October forced a fundamental rethinking of American air strategy. For the remainder of the year, American bombers flew only as deep into Germany as their escort fighters could lend support. There were no lon46ger any deep-penetration, unescorted raids.

Table II. Eighth Air Force heavy bomber strengths and losses, 1943

Although German crew losses as well as operational sortie loss rates are difficult to establish (largely because most Luftwaffe records were destroyed at the end of the war), one can establish loss rates for pilots of the single-engine fighter force.16 The percent of fighter pilots killed, wounded, or missing each month rose sharply in late spring 1942 with heavier operational commitments to a high of 9.4 percent in August but fell to a low of 2.4 percent in November. Thereafter, pilot losses began an ominous rise that continued unabated for the rest of the war. For the month of April 1943, the percentage loss was 10.9 percent of the fighter pilots present for duty at the beginning of the month. The loss rate would fall below that level during only one month (November 1943, 9.9 percent) for the remainder of the war. The heavy fighting and commitments over the summer of 1943 imposed a terrible attrition rate on the force structure.

For the period from July through October, the Luftwaffe was losing between 14 percent and 16 percent of its fighter pilots every month. The average number of fighter pilots available in combat squadrons over 1943 was 2105. The number of fighter pilots killed, wounded, or missing over the course of the year was 2967 or 141 percent. The inescapable conclusions that such statistics point to is that the Luftwaffe was in desperate trouble by the end of the year; and that if it had managed to blunt the American daylight offensive in October it had suffered no less grievously itself in the great air battles of 1943.

This is an official study by the US Air Force by Air University Review, March-April 1983.

Rune

[Zanadu]

Mage:

I said they were 'de-facto allies' and they were. Under the 'non-aggression' pact, Germany and the USSR gave each other free hands against various of their neighbors, and engaged in the co-operative invasion and destruction of Poland, of which the USSR occupied about one third.

The agreement also included provisions under which the USSR provided various industrial raw materials to Germany, which it continued to do right up to the night 'Barbarossa' was launched.

[TheHumanMage]

RUNE POST AIRCRAFT DEPLOYED FOR EACH MONT

How many Aiircraft were deployed in aug 1941 oct 41 nov 41 dec 41 jan 42 feb 42

And please confirm that you understand the question

Can you please post deployed aircraft for both sides for every month of the year And not jump to 1944

You didnt even post any tables just table 1 with no numbers

And I know that the Germans outnumbered the VVS vastly during aug 1941 to aug 1943 do you confirm that you have understod this sentance?

And please confirm that you understand the question

And the were no "russians" since there was no Russia It was the Soviet Union can you say Soviet Union? S O V I E T S

Yupp Zandu Stalin wanted to avoid war untill he was ready but you still belive that the Soviets only one because of numbers and since this is bull**** there is no point in trying to explain anything to you

[rune]

No, you are not understanding. This is the last time I will try.

The campaign is Lenningrad 1944. At Lenningrad, during January of 1944, the German Luftwaffe was out-numbered at the operation level of that theatre. The numbers from 1941-1943 do not mean a single thing. They could have had 50000 aircraft during 1941, who cares? It has NOTHING to do with Lenningrad during 1944. For the last time, German records say there were 1500 aircraft on the whole Eastern Front. Soviet records and military studies state there were 6600 Soviet aircraft, maybe even more. Now, since 6600 is greater then 1500 during January 1944, it is proper to say the Germans were outnumbered during January 1944.

As for bull****, cross that line again and you won't be coming back here.

I won't go into each month of each year, the numbers do not mean anything for January 1944. Insulting me is not the way you are going to have me do research YOU can do.

If you fail to understand what I am saying again, then a table will not help you. You understand that during 1943, single engine fighter pilots had a 141% casualty rate. The German could NOT produce pilots that fast. At the end of 1943, the Germans were in dire straights.

Let's look at numbers:

On 31 December 1943 the Luftwaffe had 2395 single-engine pilots in combat squadrons deployed throughout Europe. Of these pilots only 1495 were fully operational (62 percent), 291 were partially combat-ready (12 percent), and 691 were not operationally ready under any circumstances (26 percent). This force lost no less than 2262 fighter pilots in the next five months—close to 100 percent of the number reporting for duty at the turn of the year.

So, out of a total of 2395 in ALL fronts for single engine pilots, they had only 1495 fit for combat. So, the Germans had less pilots for single engine fighters covering germany, italy, and the eastern front then the Russians had on their front alone.

Is anyone else understanding this?

Rune

[Inigo Montoya]

Originally posted by rune:

Is anyone else understanding this?

No worries, Rune! *Everyone* else is understanding this. Here's the last message I sent TheHumanMage. It's the last communication I'm having with him.

You are beyond comprehension. Many of us have tried to provide enlightenment to you, but your mind is closed up tight. You do not allow light to enter and sweep clean your misconceptions. You are lost to us and I pity you. Socrates said the first step to wisdom is admitting your ignorance. In regards to this topic, you are never going to achieve wisdom. You will persist in your view that the winter weather in the Soviet Union only affected the Germans in 1942. You will persist in your view that the Soviet forces were not numerous. You will persist in your view that the Wehrmacht was not suffering from shortages after 1942. Sixxkiller, Stalin's Organist, Rune, Zanadu, Rastakyle(rastak), Lakespeed, and I have all tried to point out your errors in reasoning. You seem incapable of admitting you are wrong on anything so you are not worth my time. I am forced to ignore any further postings from you.

I predict everyone else will come around to my position on TheHumanMage eventually.

[TheHumanMage]

Why are you so fucused on 44 I am intrested in other numbers forget about 1944 please post numbers of avlaible deployed air craft for each month during 1941-1944

Stop focusing on Leningrad 44 I am not intrested in that we have already established that the VVS was bigger in Jan 1944 now please Focus on Leningrad 41-42 By how much did the Luftwaffe outnumber the VVS over Leningrad 41-42 and 42-43? can you answer that?

Can you please post numbers of deployed aircraft for both sides during each month of the war so that it can be possible to see when the turn in numbers happened.

I understand what you say but Why are you so focused on 44 we have alread

STOP FOCUSING ON LENINGRAD 44 WE HAVE ESTABLISHED THAT THE VVS WAS BIGGER NOW PLEASE TELL THE NUMBERS FOR THE MONTHS BEFORE THAT.

[rune]

I focused on that because you stated the briefing of the Lenningrad 1944 was inaccurate. I was trying to show you that it was correct. I haven't seen the briefings for the other campaigns, as Dan knows, I have been busy with other projects. [see ToW thread on some screenshots I just released] I also corrected you on there was not a pilot shortage during 1943, when obviously there was. IF I have time, I'll dig up the numbers for the earlier years...but other things are much higher on my priority scale.

Rune

[TheHumanMage]

Correction AFTER aug 43 the VVS was bigger NOT during winter 42-43 winter 41-42 over Leningrad.

Inigo Montoya IS WRONG the Soviets were not numerous this is WRONG. And sooner or later every will come around to this fact and see that Inigo Montoya has been wrong in everything Inigo Montoya has ever done in its whole life and everything that Inigo Montoya will do

Or as Prof Overy said

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/soviet_german_war_01.shtml

The idea that the USSR had limitless manpower, despite its heavy losses, is inadequate as an answer. Germany and her allies also possessed a large population, and added to it the peoples of the captured Soviet areas - men and women who were forced to work for the German army or were shipped back to work in the Reich. Soviet armies were always desperately short of men.

Above all, Soviet tactics in 1941-2 were extremely wasteful of manpower. If the Red Army had continued to fight the same way, it would simply have sustained escalating losses for little gain.

Nor did the USSR enjoy an advantage in economic resources. After the German attack, Soviet steel production fell to eight million tons in 1942, while German production was 28 million tons. In the same year, Soviet coal output was 75 million tons, while German output was 317 million. The USSR nevertheless out-produced Germany in the quantity (though seldom in the quality) of most major weapons, from this much smaller industrial base.