Zanadu Posted September 27, 2006 Share Posted September 27, 2006 There are several points in Mage's last, that I actually agree with. "Soviet tactics in 1941-2 were extremely wasteful of manpower". Soviet tactics did improve, but continued to be 'extemely wasteful of manpower' by the standards of either the Germans, or the western Allies right up to the end of the war. Totalling up the labor force of the areas under German control, however, is both simplistic and deceptive. Due to the unwillingness of the Germans to use women in industry (as all the other powers did) the Germans were limited to working their factories one, or at the most, two shifts rather than three for much of the war. When they finally, really went to a wartime industrial footing in 1943, they had to make large scale use of slave labor from occupied countries. This brought in all kinds of problems trying to prevent sabotage by the workers (which was common) and reduced the efficiency well below a simple counting of numbers. As to the manpower available for military service, the Germans could make use of only a very small percentage from the occupied countries, while at the same time, had to maintain occupation forces in those countries, using up German manpower. This is, of course, over and beyond the increasing manpower requirements of other fronts. Again, I remain convinced that the failure of the intitial German offensive was caused by their forces being insufficient to the needs of dealing with the defending Soviet forces (poorly handled, but numberous) as well as the need to occupy huge areas of captured territory, and provide logisitcal support for offensive operations. That decided the outcome of the war. From there on, the balance of numbers and quality shifted inevitably to the Soviets. During 1942 the two sides were fairly evenly matched. After the summer of 1942 the balance was more and more overwhelmingly with the Soviets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHumanMage Posted September 27, 2006 Author Share Posted September 27, 2006 You seem to miss the fact that those are not my words BUT THE BRITiSH PROFESSOR Richard Overy WHO EXPLAINS WHY YOU ARE WRONG. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/soviet_german_war_01.shtml No Soviet tactics were not wasteful right up untill the end of the war as I said before and as you ignore Total Soviet Military DEAD 8.6 million Total EURO Axis Military DEAD on the Eastern Front 5.5 million Soviet Casulties first 6 months of the war 3 million dead 3 million captured 56% of all captured died = 4.5 million DEAD during the first 6 months Total Euro Axis dead during the first 6 months 500k 8.6 million minus 4.5 million = 4,1 million DEAD 1942-45 5.5 million DEAD minus 500k = 5 million DEAD 1942-45 The numbers Zandu prove you wrong And Again you ignore the fact that the Germans had 5 times as much natural resources and twice the number of labour First number is German second number is Soviet numbers are from Richard Overy's The Dictators Coal (million tonnes) 1941 315.5 - 151.4 1942 317.9 - 75.5 1943 340.4 - 93.1 1944 347.6 - 121.5 Steel (million tonnes) 1941 28.2 - 17.9 1942 28.7 - 8.1 1943 30.6 - 8.5 1944 25.8 - 10.9 Aluminium (thousand tonnes) 1941 233.6 - – 1942 264.0 - 51.7 1943 250.0 - 62.3 1944 245.3 - 82.7 Labour 1941 16,400,000 - 11,000,000 1942 16,200,000 - 7,250,000 1943 16,800,000 - 7,700,000 1944 18,000,000 - 9,000,000 [ September 27, 2006, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: TheHumanMage ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted September 27, 2006 Share Posted September 27, 2006 Luftwaffe Order of Battle 24 June 1941 Serviceable Aircraft Strengths Single-engined fighters 898 Twin-engined day fighters 105 Night fighters 148 Fighter-bombers 124 Dive-bombers 260 Twin-engined bombers 931 Four-engined bombers 4 Long-range reconaissance aircraft 282 Short-range and army cooperation aircraft 388 Coastal aircraft 76 Transport aircraft 212 Total 3428 Russia Unit Aircraft Total Svcble Luftflotte 1 Stab/JG 54 Bf 109 4 3 I/JG 54 43 27 II/JG 54 40 33 III/JG 54 42 35 II/KG 1 Ju 88A 29 27 III/KG 1 30 29 I/KG 76 31 22 II/KG 76 30 25 III/KG 76 29 22 Stab/KG 77 1 1 I/KG 77 30 23 II/KG 77 31 23 III/KG 77 29 20 KGr 806 30 18 KGr zbV 106 Ju 52 44 8 Luftflotte 2 Stab/JG 27 Bf 109 4 4 II/JG 27 40 31 III/JG 27 40 14 Stab/JG 51 4 4 I/JG 51 40 38 II/JG 51 40 23 III/JG 51 38 30 IV/JG 51 38 26 Stab/JG 53 4 4 I/JG 53 35 29 4., 5./JG 53 35 33 III/JG 53 38 36 II (Sch.)/LG 2 Bf 109E 38 37 10. (Sch.)/LG 2 Hs 123A 13 13 Stab/ZG 26 Bf 110 4 4 I/ZG 26 38 17 II/ZG 26 36 30 Stab/KG 2 Do 17Z 3 3 I/KG 2 38 21 7., 8./KG 2 24 23 Stab/KG 3 1 1 Ju 88A 1 1 I/KG 3 38 32 II/KG 3 38 32 III/KG 3 Do 17Z 36 18 II/KG 4 He 111H 24 8 Stab/KG 53 6 4 I/KG 53 28 18 II/KG 53 21 10 III/KG 53 31 22 Stab/SKG 210 Bf 110C/D/E 5 4 I/SKG 210 41 33 II/SKG 210 37 37 Stab/StG 1 Bf 110 6 3 Ju 87 3 2 II/StG 1 39 28 III/StG 1 39 24 Stab/StG 2 Bf 110 6 4 Ju 87 3 3 I/StG 2 35 19 III/StG 2 39 20 Stab/StG 77 Bf 110 6 6 Ju 87 3 1 I/StG 77 38 31 II/StG 77 39 28 III/StG 77 35 28 IV/KG zbV 1 Ju 52 40 38 KGr zbV 102 43 8 Luftflotte 4 Stab/JG 3 Bf 109 4 2 I/JG 3 29 23 II/JG 3 25 25 III/JG 3 39 39 Stab/JG 52 4 3 I/JG 52 38 28 II/JG 52 39 37 III/JG 52 43 41 Stab/JG 77 2 2 II/JG 77 39 19 III/JG 77 35 20 I (Sch.)/LG 2 Bf 109E 40 20 Stab/KG 27 He 111H 5 5 I/KG 27 30 22 II/KG 27 24 21 III/KG 27 28 25 Stab/KG 51 Ju 88A 2 2 I/KG 51 22 22 II/KG 51 36 29 III/KG 53 32 28 Stab/KG 54 Ju 88A 1 1 I/KG 54 34 31 II/KG 54 36 33 Stab/KG 55 He 111H 8 7 I/KG 55 27 27 II/KG 55 24 22 III/KG 55 25 24 KGr zbV 50 Ju 52 44 24 KGr zbV 104 41 37 Norway and Finland Unit Aircraft Total Svcble Luftflotte 5 I/JG 77 Bf 109T 52 26 13., 14./JG 77 Bf 109E Z./JG 77 Bf 110C/D 12 7 I/KG 26 He 111H 31 26 I/KG 30 Ju 88A 34 19 II/KG 30 31 22 IV (St.)/LG 1 Ju 87B/R 42 39 KüFlGr 406 Bv 138A/Do 18D/G/He 115B/C 24 14 1./KüFlGr 506 He 115B/C 9 8 KüFlGr 706 Ar 196/He 114/He 115 13 6 3./KüFlGr 906 Do 18D/G 9 5 KGr zbV 108 Various 26 17 Note: Some sources say that only the Stab of KüFlGr 706 was present controlling 3./KüFlGr 906 and 1./KüFlGr 406 and that 1./KüFlGr 506 was withdrawn in April of '41. The Mediterranean Unit Aircraft Total Svcble X. Fliegerkorps I/JG 27 Bf 109 34 25 III/ZG 26 Bf 110 25 22 Stab/LG 1 Ju 88A 1 1 I/LG 1 35 4 II/LG 1 25 11 III/LG 1 27 11 II/KG 26 He 111H 28 5 III/KG 26 30 12 III/KG 30 Ju 88A 15 6 KüFlGr 506 11 4 I/StG 1 Ju 87 25 21 Stab/StG 3 3 3 Bf 110 4 0 I/StG 3 Ju 87 30 13 Stab/KG zbV 1 Ju 52 2 1 I/KG zbV 1 27 14 II/KG zbV 1 39 19 III/KG zbV 1 41 29 KGr zbV 9 25 9 KGr zbV 172 44 8 The West Unit Aircraft Total Svcble Luftflotte 3 Stab/JG 2 Bf 109 4 4 I/JG 2 36 30 II/JG 2 40 36 III/JG 2 37 32 Stab/JG 26 4 3 I/JG 26 31 27 II/JG 26 34 22 III/JG 26 43 36 Stab/ZG 76 Bf 110 4 4 II/ZG 76 34 21 II/KG 2 Do 217E 31 23 I/KG 4 He 111H 29 19 II/KG 4 25 15 I/KG 40 Fw 200C 21 4 II/KG 40 Do 217E 12 5 He 111H 10 5 III/KG 40 22 14 KGr 100 19 14 KGr 606 Ju 88A 29 13 KüFlGr 106 17 4 He 115 9 5 Germany and Denmark Unit Aircraft Total Svcble Luftwaffenbefehlshaber Mitte Stab/JG 1 Bf 109 4 4 I/JG 1 28 34 Stab/NJG 1 Bf 110 4 2 I/NJG 1 37 28 II/NJG 1 32 21 Do 215 5 2 III/NJG 1 Bf 109 11 9 Bf 110 34 28 Stab/NJG 2 Ju 88C 4 4 I/NJG 2 32 15 Do 17Z 6 4 Stab/NJG 3 Bf 110 3 3 I/NJG 3 37 32 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Luftwaffe Order of Battle 27 July 1942 Serviceable Aircraft Strengths Single-engined fighters 945 Twin-engined day fighters 58 Night fighters 203 Fighter-bombers 40 Specialized ground attack aircraft 19 Dive-bombers 249 Twin-engined bombers 1119 Four-engined bombers 41 Long-range reconaissance aircraft 188 Short-range and army cooperation aircraft 209 Coastal aircraft 64 Transport aircraft 365 Total 3500 Units in bold are reforming. Underlined units are forming. Units in italics are re-equipping. Russia Unit Aircraft Total Svcble Luftflotte 1 I/JG 54 Bf 109 40 25 II/JG 54 40 28 III/JG 54 22 18 Stab/KG 1 He 111H 2 1 I/KG 1 Ju 88A 27 14 II/KG 1 26 14 III/KG 1 33 21 Stab/KG 53 He 111H 4 4 I/KG 53 31 23 II/KG 53 33 26 III/KG 53 Ju 88A 44 29 III/StG 1 Ju 87D 32 23 Luftflotte 4 Stab/JG 3 Bf 109 3 2 I/JG 3 24 9 II/JG 3 22 10 III/JG 3 25 12 Stab/JG 52 4 4 II/JG 52 40 24 III/JG 52 35 20 13. (slow.)/JG 52 Bf 109G ? ? 15. (kroat.)/JG 52 Bf 109 12 6 I/JG 53 40 8 Stab/JG 77 4 4 1./JG 77 9 6 II/JG 77 23 16 III/JG 77 27 21 Stab/ZG 1 Bf 110 3 2 I/ZG 1 36 14 II/ZG 1 31 15 III/ZG 1 Bf 109 40 40 Do 217 3 1 7./ZG 2 Bf 109 12 9 III/LG 1 Ju 88A 28 11 Stab/KG 27 He 111H 2 2 I/KG 27 32 20 II/KG 27 31 21 III/KG 27 31 8 Stab/KG 51 Ju 88A 2 0 I/KG 51 30 17 II/KG 51 33 8 III/KG 53 28 8 Stab/KG 55 He 111H 4 4 I/KG 55 31 19 II/KG 55 30 21 III/KG 55 29 20 Stab/KG 76 Ju 88A 3 2 I/KG 76 27 13 II/KG 76 33 14 III/KG 76 38 12 Stab/KG 100 He 111H 1 1 I/KG 100 37 13 II/StG 1 Ju 87D 39 30 Stab/StG 2 3 3 Bf 110 6 4 I/StG 2 Ju 87D 28 20 II/StG 2 31 19 III/StG 2 18 11 Stab/StG 77 3 1 Bf 110 6 4 I/StG 77 Ju 87D 29 20 II/StG 77 35 28 III/StG 77 33 18 Stab/SchG 1 Bf 109 2 1 I/SchG 1 31 16 II/SchG 1 Hs 123A 12 6 Hs 129B 28 13 II/KG zbV 1 Ju 52 35 2 KGr zbV 4 49 31 KGr zbV 5 52 22 KGr zbV 9 52 34 KGr zbV 50 48 29 KGr zbV 102 52 22 KGr zbV 900 48 16 Luftwaffenkommando Ost Stab/JG 51 Bf 109 2 1 I/JG 51 31 15 II/JG 51 34 20 III/JG 51 37 22 IV/JG 51 36 29 15. (span.)/JG 51 10 6 Stab/JG 54 4 3 I/JG 54 43 27 II/JG 54 40 33 Stab/KG 3 Ju 88A 2 2 I/KG 3 34 15 II/KG 3 27 16 III/KG 3 27 19 Stab/KG 4 He 111H 3 3 I/KG 4 26 23 II/KG 4 25 19 III/KG 4 35 18 KGr zbV 105 Ju 52 38 25 KGr zbV 500 40 15 KGr zbV 700 26 14 Note: 13. (Slow.)/JG 52 not in source material. Norway and Finland Unit Aircraft Total Svcble Luftflotte 5 1., 3/JG 5 Fw 190A 35 28 2./JG 5 Bf 109F-2 II/JG 5 35 25 III/JG 5 Bf 109E/F 23 17 IV/JG 5 Fw 190A 26 20 13. (Z.)/JG 5 Bf 110E/F 12 7 I/KG 30 Ju 88A 35 29 II/KG 30 37 29 III/KG 30 36 32 I/StG 5 Ju 87B/R 43 39 KüFlGr 406 Bv 138A 26 22 He 115B/C KüFlGr 906 Bv 138A 6 6 He 115B/C 8 6 KGr zbV 108 Ju 52 39 23 Ju 52/See Note: Some sources show IV/JG 5 with Bf 109s at this date. The Mediterranean Unit Aircraft Total Svcble Luftflotte 2 Stab/JG 27 Bf 109 3 2 I/JG 27 23 15 II/JG 27 24 16 III/JG 27 20 7 Stab/JG 53 4 4 II/JG 53 30 20 III/JG 53 26 12 2, 3./JG 77 25 18 III/ZG 26 Bf 110 25 18 10./ZG 26 Do 17Z 9 4 I/NJG 2 Ju 88C 30 8 Stab/LG 1 Ju 88A 1 0 I/LG 1 28 11 II/LG 1 26 13 I/KG 26 He 111 36 27 II/KG 26 31 8 III/KG 26 Ju 88A 29 20 Stab/KG 54 2 1 I/KG 54 28 6 Stab/KG 77 3 0 II/KG 77 27 5 III/KG 77 27 12 II/KG 100 He 111H 25 12 KGr 806 Ju 88A 18 8 Stab/StG 3 Bf 110 4 2 I/StG 3 Ju 87 22 11 II/StG 3 29 14 III/StG 3 32 17 III/KG zbV 1 Ju 52 32 17 IV/KG zbV 1 50 26 KGr zbV 400 28 14 KGr zbV 600 38 29 KGr zbV 800 32 11 The West Unit Aircraft Total Svcble Luftflotte 3 Stab/JG 2 Fw 190A 4 3 I/JG 2 36 29 II/JG 2 37 34 III/JG 2 39 31 10. (Jabo)/JG 2 15 11 11. (höhen)/JG 2 Bf 109G-1 9 8 Stab/JG 26 Fw 190A 4 4 I/JG 26 38 28 II/JG 26 41 36 III/JG 26 36 33 10. (Jabo)/JG 26 15 12 Stab/KG 2 Do 217E 2 2 I/KG 2 29 21 II/KG 2 26 15 III/KG 2 35 29 I/KG 40 He 177A 30 16 II/KG 40 Do 217 30 28 III/KG 40 Fw 200C 20 11 Ju 88C 4 1 KGr 106 Ju 88A 31 23 KGr 606 18 6 Germany and Denmark Unit Aircraft Total Svcble Luftwaffenbefehlshaber Mitte Stab/JG 1 Fw 190A 4 4 I/JG 1 37 34 II/JG 1 38 28 III/JG 1 40 22 IV/JG 1 29 28 Stab/NJG 1 Bf 110 3 2 I/NJG 1 19 14 II/NJG 1 15 15 Do 217 14 7 III/NJG 1 Bf 110 15 15 Do 217 3 1 Stab/NJG 2 Ju 88C 3 1 II/NJG 2 Bf 110 23 17 Do 215 6 5 Do 217 10 1 III/NJG 2 Ju 88C 20 13 Do 217 15 7 Stab/NJG 3 Bf 110 2 1 I/NJG 3 20 16 Do 217 3 1 II/NJG 3 Bf 110 24 21 Do 217 9 6 III/NJG 3 Bf 110 31 24 Do 217 1 1 Stab/NJG 4 Bf 110 1 1 II/NJG 4 15 8 III/NJG 4 19 13 Do 217 7 5 I/KG zbV 1 Ju 52 52 35 KGr zbV 172 52 10 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17 May 43 Serviceable Aircraft Strengths Single-engined fighters 980 Twin-engined day fighters 114 Night fighters 378 Fighter-bombers 216 Specialized ground attack aircraft 61 Dive-bombers 413 Twin-engined bombers 1269 Four-engined bombers 33 Long-range reconaissance aircraft 215 Short-range and army cooperation aircraft 251 Coastal aircraft 149 Transport aircraft 414 Total 4641 Russia Unit Aircraft Total Svcble Luftflotte 1 Stab/JG 54 Fw 190A 4 4 I/JG 54 36 30 II/JG 54 Bf 109G 40 40 10. (Jabo)/JG 54 Fw 190A 9 3 Nachtjagd Schwarm Bf 109 5 1 Stab/KG 53 He 111H 4 4 I/KG 53 37 37 III/KG 53 37 33 15. (kroat.)/KG 3 Do 17Z 12 12 I/StG 5 Ju 87D 51 51 Störkampfstaffeln Luftflotte 1 1. Staffel Fw 58 21 19 He 46 Ar 66 Go 145 2. Staffel Fw 58 20 13 He 46 Ar 66 3. Staffel Fw 58 21 15 He 46 Ar 66 Go 145 4. Staffel Fw 58 22 19 He 46 Ar 66 Luftflotte 4 II/JG 3 Bf 109G 40 24 III/JG 3 35 20 Stab/JG 52 4 2 I/JG 52 38 17 II/JG 52 28 14 III/JG 52 37 22 13. (slow.)/JG 52 ? ? 15. (kroat.)/JG 52 10 6 10./ZG 1 Bf 110 12 7 Stab/SchG 1 Fw 190A 6 6 I/SchG 1 41 32 4./SchG 1 Hs 129B 10 9 II/SchG 1 Fw 190A 25 17 7./SchG 1 Hs 123A 12 8 8./SchG 1 Hs 129B 12 11 Panzerjäger Staffel/JG 51 16 14 Stab/KG 3 Ju 88A 1 0 I/KG 3 37 27 II/KG 3 31 13 Stab/KG 27 He 111H 2 0 I/KG 27 34 13 II/KG 27 23 15 14. (Eis.)/KG 27 9 6 III/KG 51 Ju 88A 21 11 Stab/KG 55 He 111H 4 4 I/KG 55 19 13 II/KG 55 30 19 III/KG 55 33 20 I/KG 100 37 35 Stab/StG 2 Ju 87D 3 2 Ju 88 6 6 I/StG 2 Ju 87D 30 23 II/StG 2 26 20 III/StG 2 34 27 Stab/StG 3 2 2 I/StG 3 38 22 III/StG 3 3 16 Stab/StG 77 3 2 Ju 88 6 6 I/StG 77 Ju 87D 39 33 II/StG 77 39 30 III/StG 77 39 24 Störkampfstaffeln Luftflotte 4 1. Staffel He 46 13 5 Do 17Z 2. Staffel Ar 66 8 3 W.34 Fw 189A 3. Staffel Go 145 16 1 4. Staffel Fw 58 5 2 Go 145 Ar 66 5. Staffel Hs 126 14 7 He 46 6. Staffel Go 145 16 15 Note: Source missed 13. (slow.)/JG 52. Luftflotte 6 I/JG 26 Fw 190A 36 30 Stab/JG 51 14 11 I/JG 51 39 20 III/JG 51 40 21 IV/JG 51 28 20 15. (span.)/JG 51 Bf 109G 16 6 Stab/ZG 1 Bf 110 2 2 I/ZG 1 38 30 Nachtjagd Schwarm Ju 88C 4 2 Stab/KG 1 Ju 88A 4 4 I/KG 1 20 0 III/KG 1 37 18 Stab/KG 4 He 111H 1 0 II/KG 4 37 23 III/KG 4 37 23 II/KG 51 Ju 88A 37 28 Stab/StG 1 Bf 110 6 5 Ju 87D 1 1 II/StG 1 39 35 III/StG 1 39 36 Störkampfstaffeln Luftflotte 6 1. Staffel Fw 58 19 18 He 46 Ar 66 2. Staffel Go 145 20 18 3. Staffel Fw 58 14 13 Ar 66 Korps Transport Staffel Ju 52 8 4 Finland and Norway Unit Aircraft Total Svcble Luftflotte 5 Stab/JG 5 Fw 190A 2 2 I/JG 5 Fw 190A 35 23 Bf 109G-2 II/JG 5 Fw 190A 23 20 III/JG 5 Bf 109F-4/G-2 26 24 IV/JG 5 Fw 190A 40 31 Bf 109F-4/G-2 13. (Z.)/JG 5 Bf 110F/G 12 8 14. (Jabo)/JG 5 Fw 190A 11 7 I/KG 30 Ju 88A 37 32 1./KüFlGr 196 Ar 196 28 25 KüFlGr 406 Bv 138A 26 17 He 115B/C 9 9 1./KüFlGr 706 Bv 138A 6 5 Ar 196 5 5 KüFlGr 906 Bv 138A 8 5 TGr 20 Ju 52 36 27 Ju 52/See 10 4 Korps Transport Staffel Ju 52 8 6 He 111 1 1 Note: Some sources say that II/JG 5 operated Bf 109s at this time. Italy Unit Aircraft Total Svcble Luftflotte 2 Stab/JG 27 Bf 109G 1 1 II/JG 27 40 38 III/JG 27 40 40 II/JG 51 40 29 Stab/JG 53 4 3 I/JG 53 36 8 II/JG 53 34 10 III/JG 53 38 24 Stab/JG 77 4 3 I/JG 77 22 5 II/JG 77 27 11 III/JG 77 23 0 II/ZG 1 Bf 110 32 8 III/ZG 1 Me 210A 15 6 III/ZG 26 Bf 110 29 20 10./ZG 26 Ju 88C 12 12 Stab/NJG 2 1 1 I/NJG 2 18 8 II/NJG 2 11 10 II/SchG 2 Fw 190A 22 4 8./SchG 2 Hs 129B 10 10 III/SKG 10 Fw 190A 20 2 Stab/LG 1 Ju 88A 1 1 I/LG 1 37 29 II/LG 1 31 10 II/KG 1 26 14 II/KG 26 He 111H 37 20 III/KG 26 Ju 88A 13 7 Beleuchterstaffel/KG 26 5 0 III/KG 30 32 30 Stab/KG 54 1 1 I/KG 54 20 11 II/KG 54 22 10 III/KG 54 34 16 Stab/KG 76 2 2 I/KG 76 36 2 III/KG 76 32 23 II/KG 77 26 20 III/KG 77 20 14 III/TG 1 Ju 52 35 13 IV/TG 1 33 9 I/TG 5 Me 323 21 10 II/TG 5 12 7 TGr 30 He 111 52 16 Savoia Staffel SM.82 6 9 Seetransport Staffel Ju 52/See 12 7 Ju 90/Ju 290 Staffel Ju 90 7 3 Ju 290 Korps Transport Staffel Ju 52 7 5 The Balkans Luftwaffenkommando Süd Ost I/JG 4 Bf 109G 40 40 The West Unit Aircraft Total Svcble Luftflotte 3 Stab/JG 2 Fw 190A 4 4 I/JG 2 40 40 II/JG 2 24 18 III/JG 2 40 37 10. (Jabo)/JG 2 Bf 109 13 8 11. /JG 2 14 9 12./JG 2 15 12 Stab/JG 26 Fw 190A 4 4 II/JG 26 40 40 III/JG 26 40 35 11. (Jabo)/JG 54 16 9 Stab/SKG 10 6 6 I/SKG 10 42 42 II/SKG 10 40 38 IV/SKG 10 30 23 Stab/KG 2 Do 217E/K 2 2 I/KG 2 Do 217E/K/M 21 8 II/KG 2 Do 217E/K 26 26 Me 410 9 3 III/KG 2 Do 217K 18 17 Stab/KG 40 He 177A 1 0 II/KG 40 Do 217K 21 19 V/KG 40 Ju 88C 37 28 I/KG 66 Do 217 23 7 Korps Transport Staffel LeO 451 6 1 Note: Balke's KG 2 history shows no Me 410s assigned to II/KG 2 in May '43. Germany and Denmark Unit Aircraft Total Svcble Luftwaffenbefehlshaber Mitte Stab/JG 1 Fw 190A 3 1 I/JG 1 31 27 Bf 109G 7 0 II/JG 1 Fw 190A 39 31 Stab/JG 3 Bf 109G 3 3 I/JG 3 40 17 I/JG 11 Fw 190A 40 27 II/JG 11 Bf 109G 54 27 I/JG 27 37 24 III/JG 54 45 41 Stab/NJG 1 Bf 110 4 4 I/NJG 1 27 20 Do 215B 1 0 II/NJG 1 Bf 110 26 17 Do 217 6 3 III/NJG 1 Bf 110 23 20 IV/NJG 1 22 16 Do 215B 2 2 Stab/NJG 3 Bf 110 2 2 I/NJG 3 11 11 Do 217 11 9 II/NJG 3 29 20 III/NJG 3 Bf 110 23 18 IV/NJG 3 Ju 88C 25 22 Stab/NJG 4 Bf 110 1 1 I/NJG 4 22 19 Do 217 11 8 II/NJG 4 Bf 110 22 20 Do 217 11 11 III/NJG 4 Bf 110 24 22 Do 217 6 5 IV/NJG 4 Bf 110 23 23 Do 217 3 3 Stab/NJG 5 Bf 110 2 1 I/NJG 5 26 26 II/NJG 5 19 17 Do 217 2 1 IV/NJG 5 Bf 110 18 18 Ju 88C 15 11 I/KG 3 Ju 88A 37 29 I/KG 6 31 21 II/KG 6 20 15 III/KG 6 34 28 I/KG 26 He 111H 19 10 II/KG 27 37 28 I/KG 40 He 177A 12 10 Fw 200C 6 1 III/KG 40 He 177A 12 12 Fw 200C 11 2 I/KG 50 He 177A 29 4 II/KG 53 He 111H 13 0 II/KG 76 Ju 88A 5 3 II/KG 100 Do 217 37 0 III/KG 100 35 11 I/TG 1 Ju 52 22 16 II/TG 1 49 34 II/TG 2 20 8 III/TG 2 24 12 II/TG 3 50 39 III/TG 3 52 27 IV/TG 3 36 24 I/TG 4 15 5 II/TG 4 51 48 Source: Alfred Price. Luftwaffe Data Book, 1997. The Russian Numbers: January 1, 1942: 21.900 airplanes January 1, 1943: 34.900 airplanes January 1, 1944: 46.400 airplanes January 1, 1945: 59.900 airplanes May 10, 1945: 64.200 airplanes Say 1/2 of these faced the germans [these are combat aircraft numbers]. So, max at the front at any time for the Germans is 2000, Russians had minimum of 10,000 on the front. However, remember a lot of these could be obsolete types, and shifting forces for an attack [operational] could give one side or the other a higher value on a specific section of the front. Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHumanMage Posted September 27, 2006 Author Share Posted September 27, 2006 Rune I dont understand any of the numbers except the ones at the very end which are of built aircraft per year Rune the Soviets built 25k planes during 1942 so they could not have had 25k planes deployed at the front during jan 1942! Rune on the first of october 1941 over Moscow the VVS had 677 planes and the Luftwaffe had 950 planes, so the VVS could not have 25K planes deployed during jan 42! Now please if you have the numbers please post deployed aircraft during each month, not built aircraft per year. I am not intrested in BUILT but DEPLOYED aircraft. Fill in the blanks The VVS had BLANK planes deployed in aug 1941, in oct 41 in nov 41 in dec 41 and so on The luftwaffe had BLANK planes deployed in aug 41 in oct 41 in nov 41 in dec 41 and so on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted September 27, 2006 Share Posted September 27, 2006 You must be joking - you dont' understand the numbers but you are arguing about numbers?? Rune's posting is clear - there are lines in it that give the total numbers of a/c at various points in time. I am guessing that English is not your 1st language, but the numbers are pretty damned simple - there are total numbers for 1941, 1952, and 1943 that I can see. you are the one saying het Soviets had fewer a/c than the LW - where is YOUR evidence of that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted September 27, 2006 Share Posted September 27, 2006 That is aircraft at one sector, the numbers given are in combat units, and NOT ones built. For example, let us look at 1942. At the end of this volume {Black Cross, Red Star] are detailed descriptions of the dramatic large-scale air battles during the German offensives at Kharkov and against Sevastopol in May and June 1942, where the scope of losses for both sides is mind-boggling. In this period, the Soviet Military Air Force, or VVS, lost 6976 aircraft and the Germans 1170, resulting in the astonishingly high claims recorded by Germany's many aces by war's end. Eric Hartmann's 352 claims for example, should not be scoffed at when you read this account. So...if the German out numbered the Russians, and the figured supplied by the Germans themselves say about 2000 aircraft on the Eastern Front was the high point, how did they shoot down over 6000 aircraft in 2 months? This would mean the Russians had more aircraft then the Germans. Let us look at Stalingrad, From Flight Leader: Dear David, In answer to your question about the ratio of aircraft present during the November Stalingrad operations, these are the figures. The Luftwaffe had approximately 1,200 aircraft, against the VVS' total of 1,414 aircraft, of which 413 were Yak-1, LaGG-3 and a few MiG-3 fighters, an approximate 12% superiority in the Soviet's favor. No where near a giant majority in overall strength. In answer to your query about Soviet aircraft losses during this period, the Soviet's losses fell into the Defensive period which was 2,063 aircraft, and the Offensive period which was 706 aircraft lost. The German aerial victory claims during this period can be understood because of the overwhelming replacements of the GKO's strategic reserves of modern aircraft types. Your point made about the FAF's ability to score phenomenal scores against the VVS can be explained easily by a number of examples. When a static defence is chosen, and the implementation of overwhelming aerial assets when and where a commander chooses, aerial superiority and victory are often assured. Examples being the Luftwaffe's success in their assault against Russia's static defences in June 1941, the RAF in the Battle of Britain, the Flying Tigers in Burma and China, the Japanese in their 1941 and 1942 conquest of the Pacific, and the US Navy's fighter tactics between the Guadalcanal and Midway campaigns. Exact number, Russians have more aircraft. Here are the figures for 1943 a/c at beginning of year / replacements / Aircraft lost / Aircraft at end of year bombers / 5300 / 5100 / 3600 / 6800 ground attack / 5000 / 11000 / 7200 / 8800 fighters / 11600 / 17000 / 11700 / 16900 total / 21900 / 33100 / 22500 / 32500 A lot of these were obsolete, or in training squadrons, but basically out numbered the German by far. Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted September 27, 2006 Share Posted September 27, 2006 The Soviet concept of air superiority was quite different to the Western one too. The Soviets were unconcerned about preventing LW operations across wide areas of the front - they were only concerned about being able to attack and defend in those areas where they so chose. their "Air Army" reorganisation from 1942 allowed them to do this - transferring sub-units between the air armies with great ease (each air army was attached to and subordinate to a "land" army) to achieve local superiority virtually at will. of course the LW had a similar ability - but it was new to the VVS and greatly increased its overall effectiveness compared the the 1941-early 42 organisation which had hte airforce as a seperate service on a par with the army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanadu Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 Mage If the Germans had the superiority in troops and equipement you claim, they would have won. They had superior combat doctrine for both infantry and armor throughout the war. Only the British came close in infantry doctrine, by copying the German tactical system, substituting the Bren gun for the German MG. Only the US came close in Armor tactics, also by shamelessly copying the Germans. I notice that your British professor claims the Soviets improved their armored forces by introducing radios. Unfortunately they didn't go nearly far enough. A WW2 Soviet tank company (ten tanks) had only four ratios, and three of those were only receivers (the platoon leaders) while only one (the company commander) had a transmitter-receiver. That means that six of ten tanks was limited to following their leader and shooting at what their leader shot at. Better than no radios at all, but far behind the flexibility of any force in which ALL tanks had transmitter-receivers. It also means that the loss of the company commander removed the entire company from higher-level control. The German army managed something that was probably unique for the armed forces of a totalitarian state -- retaining and encouraging a high level of individual initiative in its troops at all levels, right down to the private soldier. Generally, dictatorships try to discourage the people who carry the guns from thinking very much. The WW2 Soviet system certainly did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHumanMage Posted September 28, 2006 Author Share Posted September 28, 2006 RUNE Rune your numbers are great BUT do it for every month and for both sides and dont start in 1943! And you will see that some months the Luftwaffe had many more planes then the VVS because if the Soviets lose 6000 planes and the Axis only lose 1 thousand planes this means that the Axis have a lead by 5 thousand for the next month. You only look at one point in time and then forget to look at the point after Lets say I have 10k planes and you have 8k planes If I lose 6k planes then I have 4 k planes if you lose 1k planes then you have 7 k planes which means you outnumber me So if the Germans can replace their losses and the Soviets can not then the Germans have more planes. The Soviet airforce was wiped out in 1941 The axis had more planes because the Soviets were wiped out this is simple logic Now if the Soviets lost 6 k planes in 2 months then after those 2 months they would have 6 k planes less which would mean that the Axis outnumbered them! Zanadu And to Zanadu it is clear you know nothing about ww2 if you would go to a uni you would get a big F I told you about losses and natural resources the Nazies had many times more natural resources and Labour you seem to forget that also you forget total military dead for both sides! Zanadu your biggest problem is that you only know about operation barbarossa and ignore everything else. You must understand Zanadu that everything you belive to know is wrong, it is as simple as that Total Soviet Military DEAD 8.6 million Total Euro Axis Dead on the eastern front 5.5 million Total Soviet Casulties 1941 3 million dead 3 million captured 56% of all captured died = 4.5 million dead 1941 Total Axis DEAD 1941 500k Total Axis DEAD 1942-45 - 5 million (5.5-0.5) Total Soviet DEAD 1942-45 - 4.1 million (8.6-4.5) The Soviet doctrine became equall to the Germans during 43 and superior during late 44. You know absolutley ZERO of what happened after 1941 ZANADU And the AXIS did have superior number of solider untill 1943 this part is the biggest part which your brain cant process Say after me : The Axis had more soliders then the Soviets untill mid 1943. Zanadu you cant understand that if you lose 6 million Soldiers in 6 months and you enemy only losses 500k then there is no chans in hell that you can match his numbers for some time. Just look it up! That is your biggest problem you dont look anything up and claim alot of BS Zanadu look up the numbers And calling a British professor Wrong is just plain stupid he didnt become a professor because he knows nothing. [ September 28, 2006, 03:17 AM: Message edited by: TheHumanMage ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 I give up, you ignore what people write. Rune your numbers are great BUT do it for every month and for both sides and you will see that some month the Luftwaffe had many more planes then the VVS because if the Soviets lose 6000 planes and the Axis only lose 1 thousand planes this means that the Axis have a lead by 5 thousand for the next month. How the hell did you come up with that? The Maximum the Germans had at any time is 2 thousand. In your example, if the Russins lost 5000, and the Germans lost 1000, it means each had 1000 at the end. Since you do not want to make an attempt to understand, I wash my hands on this. Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHumanMage Posted September 28, 2006 Author Share Posted September 28, 2006 Rune! I read everything people write look you wrote In this period, the Soviet Military Air Force, or VVS, lost 6976 aircraft and the Germans 1170 Then the month after that the Germans would have more then the Soviets right? And This means that the Germans would outnumber the Soviets for some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inigo Montoya Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 Originally posted by rune: I give up, you ignore what people write. ...Since you do not want to make an attempt to understand, I wash my hands on this. Rune To Rune, One by one, people will come over to my way of thinking about TheHumanMage. Poor Rune, you put so much time and effort into providing data and numbers. This fellow ignores data, logic, and reasoned argument. His references to receiving an F and his slavish adherence to Professor Overy make me suspect he is a university student. His mind is programmed at this point in his life to blindly accept what his professors tell him. Later in life, he will come to be able to evaluate data for himself and might then be able to make an attempt to understand or listen. Until that time, I'm predicting one by one members of this forum will join us in ignoring TheHumanMage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHumanMage Posted September 28, 2006 Author Share Posted September 28, 2006 The only one who ignores data and logic is you Inigo Montoya You ignore the fact that the Germans had 5 times more natural resources you ignore the fact that the Soviet army was smaller then the Axis untill 1943 you ignore pure logic The only one who has a programmed mind is you Inigo Montoya with your neo nazist way of thinking that for every German 1 million Soviets died. The Germans had 5 times more natural resources you ignore this The Germans had 2 times the labour you ignore this The Soviets had by the end of 41 40% of its population in German hands you ignore this It is you Inigo Montoya who ignore everything Why dont you go to any university in any country and try to pass this BS theory of the Soviets beeing numerous and see how far you get, I dare you [ September 28, 2006, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: TheHumanMage ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanadu Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 Mage I have university degree in history, and my grades in the subject were quite adequate, thank you. I would be interested in know where your numbers came from, and how current the sources. There is still a lot of propaganda numbers put out by the old Soviet Union before its fall, that have long been discredited since the original records were opened. They understated Soviet wartime casualties by something over fifty percent. The Eastern front is not my specialty and I don't have the proper souces at hand, but it is my understanding from past reading that the ratio of losses in actual combat between Soviet and German troops for the war overall was on the order of eight or ten to one, and for the Barbarrosa period, about fifteen to one. It was about three to one between US troops and the Germans. My statements on German tactics are correct. My knowledge of Soviet doctrine is limited to more recent periods (1970s-80s), but their lack of a proper NCO corps leads me to doubt that they were anywhere near the level of the Germans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHumanMage Posted September 28, 2006 Author Share Posted September 28, 2006 Zanadu The only propaganda is the German one which you trumpet so loudly Zanadu Any fact book published in any year after 2000 will show you production numbers just pick up any encyclopedia of any country and see for your self. Zanadu Ten to one is pure nazi propaganda this was only during Barbarossa Zanadu Look the Axis lost 5.5 million soldiers in the East if it were ten to one this would mean the Soviets lost 55 million Soldiers Total Soviet War losses were 8.6 million DEAD look it up. And out of those 3,6 million died in camps 5 million in combat. As I have Said total Axis Dead 5.5 million (500k During the first 6 months) Total Soviet Dead 8.6 million ( 3 million Dead and 3 million Captured during the first 6 months 56% of all Soviet POW died in camps = 4.5 million Dead during the first 6 months.) Your knowledge of Soviet doctrine = ZERO you only know what Germans sources say and they talk ONLY about Barbarossa. Ten to one where the hell is your logic? If total Axis DEAD are military 5.5 million in the east and total military Soviet are 8.6 million where the hell do you get the fantasy 10 to one number? Zanadu You need to Read David Glantz he is an American Officer who has written many books about the Svoiet War effort during ww2, read his books When Titans Clashed: How the Red Army Stopped Hitler. He has written many books and all are good. [ September 28, 2006, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: TheHumanMage ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 We've published production figures which all show that the Soviets built a lot more a/c (and everythign else) than the Germans - why do you keep demanding them? I have no idea what hte number of dead has to do with anythign at all - no-one has argued thathet Soviets lost fewer people - personally I think you number of Soviet dead is only about 30% of what they actually suffered - some 25-30 million seems more likely, of which about 50% were military. but that aside I really hve no idea what you are trying to say any more. You started by saying that teh soviets were not "numerous" - but you've contradicted that now by saying elsewhere that they built more stuff. so what is your point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHumanMage Posted September 28, 2006 Author Share Posted September 28, 2006 Soviet Dead 8,6 million Military 20 million Civilians Grand Total 28 million The Aircraft ratio is intresting during aug 41 for every month untill aug 43 because in the vast majority of those months the VVS was smaller then the Luftwaffe When the user who said the Soviets were numerous said the soviet were numerous that user meant that the Soviets had many times more men resources and materials then the axis which is completely wrong The axis had more resources but built high cost items the Soviets built low cost items that is why the Soviets were able to build more items and win the war. The Soviets did not have a limitless supply of men nor did the Soviets suffer a death ratio of ten to one for every german dead The Soviets had less Soldiers deployed untill 1943 The Soviets had less resources The Soviets had less labour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 So you have no point - well you've taken a bloody long time so say nothing useful at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHumanMage Posted September 28, 2006 Author Share Posted September 28, 2006 My points are many 1 the axis had more resources 2 The Soviets didnt win because they had limtless supply of men and materials 3 The axis had more men deployed untill 1943 4 This myth about overwhelming numbers of tanks, guns, and rockets followed by waves of ill-trained but limitless "cannon fodder" which served mainly, it would appear, to use up all the German ammunition. Is wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixxkiller Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 Found this...... The Soviet victory owed a great deal to the ability of her war industry to outperform the German economy, despite the enormous loss of population and land. The Stalinist five year plans of the 1930s had resulted in the industrialization of the Urals and central Asia. In 1941, the trains that shipped troops to the front were used to evacuate thousands of factories from Belorussia and the Ukraine to safe areas far from the front lines. As the Soviet Union's manpower reserves ran low from 1943 onwards, the great Soviet offensives had to depend more equipment and less on the expenditure of lives. The increases in production of war materiel were achieved at the expense of civilian living standards — the most thorough application of the principle of total war — and with the help of Lend-Lease supplies from the United Kingdom and the United States. Germany, unable to compete on quantity (in 1943, the Soviet Union manufactured 24,000 tanks to Germany's 13,000) adopted a strategy of competing on quality. This led to highly successful designs such as the huge Tiger tank and the anti-tank panzerfaust. These enabled German soldiers to continue to fight at considerable numerical disadvantage until the huge losses in 1944 used up the last German manpower and materiel reserves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 Yep - Soviet citizens did not have a comfortable life, whereas I read recently that 1 million German women were still working as hair stylists in 1943......I imagine that number if somewhat high, but hte point is clear!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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