lakespeed Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 I thought I'd make some comments about the changes and what I've noticed. I've played several high and low level games to test the system out. 1) When your Leader goes down, and your Wingman becomes Leader, it seems that he still draws from the Wingman deck. This is a serious disadvantage when it is 4 vs 1 and you are trying to even the odds a little. But you do get more defensive cards. 2) Any plane with a damage bonus is BRUTAL! I saw a Jack shoot down my B-17 with a 1:2 for 4, another 1:2 for 4, a maneuver card, and then a 2:3 card for the last 5. In 1 pass! I've also been able to wipe out aircraft on 2 occasions in 1 pass with the P-38 as well. 3) Spoil Aim and Marksman are now the two most deadly skills. You can keep lower burst aircraft from firing at you until tailed and on the flip side you can blast the living crap out of someone when merely advantaged. 4) If you go first, with a damage dealing aircraft, you have a serious chance at a clean sweep. 5) There are a heck of a lot of IMS 2:D cards flying around out there. I drew it 5 times in 1 escort mission between me and my Wingman (4:1) (I was in the P-38) and I also had it used against me 3 times in the same game (I was fighting Me-109K's). 6) I still kind of like the idea of not letting the Wingman have the "Draw an extra card" skill. It give a little bit of an advantage to the Wingman, but maybe now with the IMS/OOTS changes to the Wingman this will not be that big of a deal anymore. 7) With Wingmen getting more defensive cards, Bombers will have a harder time doing any damage to attacking fighters, especially attacking Wingmen. 8) At the first one or two levels of aircraft, don't plan on shooting anything down. the negatives to damage and 0 bursts really hamper your combat ability. Just a few observations I've noticed, to give others a feel for the changes and to share with ya'll my likes and dislikes. So far, I like the changes. I need to play a good 50 games to see how they work out, and it makes the aircraft a lot different from each other, some I will no longer play and some I will be devastating with, but it will no longer be a cakewalk and I think you'll see a lot of pilots get blasted if you get stuck with a "dead-man's hand." [ January 22, 2006, 08:00 AM: Message edited by: lakespeed ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartbert Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 Originally posted by lakespeed: 1) When your Leader goes down, and your Wingman becomes Leader, it seems that he still draws from the Wingman deck. This is a serious disadvantage when it is 4 vs 1 and you are trying to even the odds a little. But you do get more defensive cards. This should not be the case. When a wingman gets promoted to leader, he should draw from the "normal" (non-Wingman) deck from that point forward. I realize it's hard for you guys to know for sure what's happening behind the scenes, but if a lot of you feel this is happening, I'll look into it further. I think a lot of your observations are on the mark. These changes are fairly "simple" in concept, but they are very far reaching in effect. Personally, I like the changes because it brings more "personality" to each aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakespeed Posted January 22, 2006 Author Share Posted January 22, 2006 Brian, The reason I mentioned that is both times my Leader went down right away, my Wingman drew almost no bullet cards, and none from altitude changes. As I play more I'll get a better feel for it, but I wanted to bring it up for like you said, in case others notice it too. :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartbert Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 Yup. Understood. I just wanted to make sure everyone knew that if it is happening, it is not what was intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistura Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 Hi all. I'm taking flying lessions again. This is GREAT! I am learning the do's and don'ts again. You can't take that 1B-1D card anymore because there can be +1 or more damage added. :eek: Your flying tactic's will have to change for the plane your flying against. SUPER JOB DIF TEAM. The Mistura Stamp of approval. A week from now when all my pilots are KIA I may change my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellar Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 Personally i like all other changes but one, -1 burst is not good. Before i did feel even when fighting against Emil with my Spit, and now its just suicide, no more fun. Also flying with even lower level planes is more frustrating than ever, because cant 'kill' anything anymore without extreme luck. Hit 1:1 are useless now because -1. Im not against +1 burst with planes that have 30mm cannon, but i sure think -1 should be changed to 0. This is just my opinion. S! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 ppanes with 30mm cannon dont' get +1 - they get a "ehavy cannon" rating which increases their chances of getting a IMS 2:Destroyed card. Basically rifle-calibre machine guns get -1 damage rating, heavy machineguns (.50, 12.7, 13.2, 15mm) get 0, and 20mm cannon get +1. The planes with 0/-1 are generally armed with only 2 rifle calibre machineguns - this eas even being recognised as not enough by the end of WW1!! They DESERVE to have crap shooting ability!! Sadly it's also what new players start with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistura Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 I think I may have to play the MUCH safer 1 element games. My help gone before turn 2 and me running like crazy. 1 of the leaders had 21 cards in his hand by the time he was able to attack on turn 6. :eek: Needless to say my wingman never stood a chance. I think there should be a limit on the amount of cards the leaders can hold. Say 15 cards MAX. That's a lot of cards with a card draw on top of that. That or pray that pilot don't catch up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchy Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 It's pretty frustrating not to be able to shoot with bursts in my hand and I am tailing the guy 3 out of 6 turns. Granted they were low point planes but you know what, I don't care what kind of weapons I have, I'll shoot at a guys tail. I may miss but I'll shoot. One dumb question...must IMS cards be purchased? Or are they drawn during course of play? All I ever got were burst cards. Didn't see one IMS card. I think if a plane has an advantage on another he ought to be able to get a burst out no matter what his rating... I don't get to play often so it's taking me some time accumulate points and climb up the ladder. Also as a suggestion, right now there is dogfight and escort when setting up fights. I'd like to see a third, titled "historical". This would allow planes that actually faced each other in the proper theater to fight each other. Basically it would eliminate the US vs US or US vs Allied fights. Same with the axis pairings. As it stands now you don't know who or what you will face in a battle. Right now the game just has a "free for all" type feeling...don't get me wrong. I enjoy the game but feel a bit of the "history", other than the planes themselves, has been left out. Campaigns are historical...why not dogfights? Anyway, signing off. [ January 22, 2006, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: Frenchy ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakespeed Posted January 23, 2006 Author Share Posted January 23, 2006 Well, I've played a ton of games now with the new system and I'm not as gung-ho about the changes as I once was. I started a new pilot, he's flow 11 missions and has a total of 0 kills, 2 damages, and 44XP. The wingman has 2 kills, 1 damage, and 43XP. And my Leader lost his ED on the 1st mission and has yet to regain it, yet also has been shot down twice more and amazingly survived! Escort missions are now pretty much useless at high level. Time after time I see either a IMS:2D or a OOTS 3:4 for 5 or 6 points of damage played by wingmen. Very rarely do I make it past turn 2 without smoking or being shot down. Pretty much if you don't strike first and make a kill on the first turn, you are dead. Which means you always have to start at very high and have to get lucky. And don't even get me going on bombers being useless now. Misty's right, if you want to survive it's 1 vs. 1 and that's about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Nah - I've been playing 2:2 dogfights with the AI for a while, and nothing much has changed. Bombers were already toast for me 'cos I'd keep having to face 2 sets of super-bots & I was getting canned on a regular basis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squiggy Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 I've only been playing since Christmas and didn't know squat about this game or the card game it's based on. Have had an absolute blast playing with my brother. Until tonight. Don't care about realism. Was more fun before the update. Did anyone beta the changes? Would rather see balance than realism. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornado Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Originally posted by Frenchy: Basically it would eliminate the US vs US or US vs Allied fights. Same with the axis pairings. As it stands now you don't know who or what you will face in a battle. Is that such a bad thing? I don't think so. Just my opinion. Also, while I do not agree with lakespeed that Escort missions are hopeless, I do have to say that they are MUCH more challenging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixxkiller Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Yes there was a testing period for this patch and when you get used to it it will make sense. I think before I have stated that you need to be more defensive. These 1:1 cards can now have BITE guys and playing them will eventually lead you to greener pastures than relying on the big knock out punches. Also a lot of you playing escort missions need to stay within your defensive perimeter more. Sometimes it isnt good to fight even if your bombers are getting railed on. Climb guys, and if you never played the original demo you may not even know why. You also should get to know the planes you are most likely to fly against. One thing I do hate is the IMS: Destroyed card still. Shouldnt be in the game IMHO. No skill in playing it and ACE piloting after. And now there are more of them!. -Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixxkiller Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Hi and welcome to the community. This game has some luck elements but as one of the better pilots has stated earlier, the better pilot will win most of the time. I think it was either Mistura or Tornado. Air combat was never really balanced but I think similar leveled planes are balanced. As far as realism is concerned, this simulation isnt supposed to be a realistic portrayl of combat. Its supposed to be addictive and fun, which I have no doubt most here will tell you both are true! But I hope you guys give these new features a chance. After a while you will like it more and more. -Ray Originally posted by Squiggy: I've only been playing since Christmas and didn't know squat about this game or the card game it's based on. Have had an absolute blast playing with my brother. Until tonight. Don't care about realism. Was more fun before the update. Did anyone beta the changes? Would rather see balance than realism. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanadu Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Can't say I'm happy with the change. Been playing on local vs AI. Hostiles come with 'draw extra cards'x4 or 5 or sometimes 7. I find this a pretty tough go. The new damage rules seem to have pushed tough to nearly hopeless. Was having a lot of fun prior to the change, but not much fun in having every a/c you send up shot down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixxkiller Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Hi Zanadu, Welcome to the community. You'll get used to it in time. I dont know what skills you buy or what altitude you normally play at but being first to play has advantages. High or VHigh and powerdive reaps rewards! -Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Being last to play also has advantages!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakespeed Posted January 23, 2006 Author Share Posted January 23, 2006 Originally posted by tornado: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Frenchy: Basically it would eliminate the US vs US or US vs Allied fights. Same with the axis pairings. As it stands now you don't know who or what you will face in a battle. Is that such a bad thing? I don't think so. Just my opinion. Also, while I do not agree with lakespeed that Escort missions are hopeless, I do have to say that they are MUCH more challenging. </font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Leaders get to keep their 1:? cards - wingmen play what they can get. 1:? cardw with a damage bonus are killers vs bombers - hte bombers use up their defences and the cards keep coming and causing significant damage each time. Mind you that said I played a game this afternoon against a popor guy & my "wingman o' death" kept drawing 2:? and 2:D cards with jsut hte right combinatoins of counters to his defence - it's not often my wingies get 2 kills against players!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixxkiller Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 By default I used to buy a OTS:3 4 but now i get an ace card. While an ots brings the heat, an ace card keeps you warm and toasty by the fire with Jessica (Simpson or Alba, or BOTH!!!!!). Marshmellows and a bottle of spirits taste much better there than roasting from the heat from your burning flesh! And shooting those sissy little Spitfires down with my J2M makes the little Stalins very unhappy, but it does free him up to go sheep tipping in a field he has made sure doesnt contain landmines!!! See you in Leyte Stalin, dont worry about my 10 point lead. I will be widening it this turn! -Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanadu Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 What I'd read suggested the game was energy management, so bought skills for that: power dive, zoom, stay with him, high performance, redline, etc. Usually start at High. And try to check out oppoanant for lack of zoom or dive looking for advantages. My last, the opponant (A6M5) had both and others plus 'extra cards'x7. Actually did shoot him down, but at cost of both my Corsairs. Running badly into fatigue debt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaroen Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Back to the first comments by lakespeed I say I heartily agree with his first and later findings. I'm uncertain about play balance. I believe the gunnery changes make for a more realistic experience but I have my doubts about them being enjoyable. Maybe it's overdone a little??? Even the earlier planes were quite capable of shooting each other even with those few guns on deck. This was pretty good balanced with their low burst value and low frame strengths. No change required. Even those little changes with lowering or raising a burst or damage value has a large impact. Perhaps a bit too much??? To me it would be quite allright to have the cannon armed planes fire with 1 extra damage point. After all, there are so many more factors playing an important role in calculating gunnery effectiveness that it would be too detailed to make them work in such a single abstract figure. Or is it just me thinking that way??? Together with the stacking changes which mainly benefits the bots (higher values now!) it's become a very hard game for beginning and intermediate pilots. Only pilots with plenty of skills have a more interesting game since I believe it was to easy for experienced pilots playing against bots. I'm also very uncertain about the change in deck content for leaders and wingman. Like others mentioned before, those OOTS cards almost seem to be common. Especially for lower value pilots and wingman it results in a game where luck plays a very big role. If the opposing bot wingman has an extra card to draw it means a big difference compared with a human wingman and might double it's chances for drawing a damaging or deadly burst card. Only a very lucky human wingman can stand a continuing onslaught by bot wingman drawing an extra card all the time. This is mainly a result I think of playing against higher value bots which are the rule by now instead of being uncommon. After reading through my comments it looks very critical and I don't mean it to be. I do like the game and am really grateful to the designers and their continuing support. Because one really enjoys a game one looks for possible improvement. Godspeed, Jaroen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 the strength of the bonuses was noticed in testing - believe me!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Originally posted by Sixxkiller: See you in Leyte Stalin, dont worry about my 10 point lead. I will be widening it this turn! Go look at the turn Sixx - maybe you won't be extending it so much as you think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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