a few thoughts

[Tomb]

Having persused the various reviews I think I shall be getting this.

It was not obvious that there is a single player game, im pleased to see there is.

Would like to see a battle report on a bomber attack to see how that works, any chance?

Would I be correct in assuming bombers are non players units ? basically targets ?

Would also like to see how a 110 works under attack as it has a rear gunner but is a player plane, the only multi crew one i think.

What does that rear gunner do for you ?

Would also be interesting to see what “agile” does for you.

I realise the game is for fun and I should close my eyes to in some cases, less than historic plane performances, since that’s the designers privilege however

The 109F is described thus “ The Friedrich was the most widely produced of the Bf 109 family” anyone with even a passing interest in this period knows it was the Gustav or 109G. 70% or their abouts of total production.

I would suggest an amendment their, to the 109f description

2nd quibble is turbocharger.

Not really true except for the P47 but true in all cases is supercharger (the p47 had a 1st stage turbo charger blowing into a 2nd stage super charger as did the p38

The spits/mustang had 2 stage superchargers and the 109 used MW50/GM1 on a single stage

Supercharger is more accurate but not quite right either, perhaps the phrase “Boosted” is more appropriate.

Minor points but im the sort of person who would look this game over and while from its style I would not expect super accuracy I would not expect super inaccuracy either.

The online portion looks interesting could their be a pilot character scored online only?. Be willing to bet that kind of player character would have far more personal value than running up a score against the AI, see who the true aces are LoL

Hope you don’t mind the comments, board does seem a bit quiet, hopefully the game will have a fairly active player community.

I will be one for sure

regards

[Kiith]

Yeah I was thinking the same thing about their being no single player and I’m still a little unsure wither it’s limited to the campaigns only or can you have a solo career playing skirmish against the AI? And if it is the case that you can solo against the AI then, I’d agree that it the online scores would hold more value than those that are chalked up against the AI.

I haven’t played the card game but I’d guess that the gunner in the Bf110C would give you the opportunity to play a 1 burst in my sites card against the attacker if you are in a disadvantaged or tailed position?

[bartbert]

Dan will have to answer the questions about turbo chargers and such, but I can address some of your question regarding game play.

It was not obvious that there is a single player game, im pleased to see there is.

When playing games locally, the only option is to play against the AI. If you're playing online, then you can play against other players, or against the AI. That's true whether you're playing regular dogfights or the campaign game. In regular dogfights, you can have up to four elements involved, and some of those could be human opponents while others are controlled by the AI. The campaign game is only two player, however.

Would I be correct in assuming bombers are non players units ? basically targets ?

Yes, all bombers are controlled by the AI. Your job will either be bomber escort or interceptor.

Would also like to see how a 110 works under attack as it has a rear gunner but is a player plane, the only multi crew one i think.

As Kiith surmised, the Bf110 allows you to play 1 Burst cards (either "In My Sights" or "Out of the Sun"), even when they are disadvantaged or tailed. Normally you would have to be at least Neutral to fire.

Would also be interesting to see what “agile” does for you.

Agile aircraft have the special ability to play any card as a "Scissors" under the right circumstances.

The online portion looks interesting could their be a pilot character scored online only?. Be willing to bet that kind of player character would have far more personal value than running up a score against the AI, see who the true aces are LoL

Playing online does allow your pilots to participate on the "Leader Board". This is basically a ranking of all the pilot's Kills and Experience Points. By default, we look at monthly totals, but you can also look at daily, weekly, and yearly totals.

[Dan Verssen]

Tomb,

Thank you for pointing out the flaw in the Bf-109 description. We are fixing it as we speak.

In regards to Turbocharger/Supercharger/Boost, I lumped all these into the common "Turbocharger" description. You are right, there are differences. Perhaps in the future we can divide these into different categories and game effects.

Thank you for taking the time to point out these issues, while DIF is not a super complex game, we would like it to be as accurate as possible.

[Tomb]

Thanks for those replies,

With regards to say a spit on the tail of the 110, say the rear gunner plays an IMS does the spit get to play or counter to avoid fire or one can assume he can play his own IMS and the two planes can shoot it out

Does it work something like this ?

Spit on tail of 110 the 110 cant counter so plays a IMS card (for the rear gunner), does the spit now get to manover to counter that or can the spit also choose to play an IMS card so they both end up shooting at each other. ?

Also on shooting can you fire head to head as some aircraft have a burst rating of 1 or 2

Since fighter attacking bomber combat is not described I can only guess how that portion of it works.

The leader board, is that kills while scored while only playing online, or is that character kills scored both on or offline.

The AI also makes it interesting in that Co-op missions are possible against a pure AI ?

In multi element dogfights can both of your elements “gang up” onto say the leader of element 1. or if there are two elements a side do they pair off first ? as in 2 pairs chasing 1 guy

regards

[bartbert]

Spit on tail of 110 the 110 cant counter so plays a IMS card (for the rear gunner), does the spit now get to manover to counter that or can the spit also choose to play an IMS card so they both end up shooting at each other. ?

It's a turn based game, so when it is the 110's turn, he can play an IMS for the rear gunner, and the Spitfire could respond to avoid being hit. When it is the Spitfire's turn, he could play his own IMS cards and the 110 could try to respond to those.

Also on shooting can you fire head to head as some aircraft have a burst rating of 1 or 2

Yes, aircraft with a burst rating of 1 or 2 could play 1-burst or 2-burst cards from a neutral position. Maneuvering to more advantageous positions increases your burst rating, which gives you more options on what you can play.

Since fighter attacking bomber combat is not described I can only guess how that portion of it works.

Bombers never initiate an attack, but when targeted by a fighter they draw a mini-hand based on the bombers defensive capabilities. When fired on, bombers can't play cards like barrel roll, etc, to avoid being hit, but they can fire back with their own IMS cards. In addition, some cards are designated as "Spoiled Attack" cards which cause the fighter's current attack to be cancelled. A typical sequence might be that a fighter plays an IMS 1-burst 2-damage on the bomber. The bomber takes 2 hits and responds with a 2-burst 2-damage card. The fighter responds with a barrel roll and avoids being hit (the bomber cannot respond to the barrel roll). The fighter then plays another 1-burst 2-damage on the bomber, but the bomber reponds with a 1-burst 1-damage that is also a "Spoiled Attack". The fighter's attack is cancelled and the fighter must also respond to the 1-burst 1-damage card to avoid being hit.

The leader board, is that kills while scored while only playing online, or is that character kills scored both on or offline.

The Leader Board is for online games only. Kills for human and AI opponents count equally, but the AI plays a pretty mean game.

The AI also makes it interesting in that Co-op missions are possible against a pure AI ?

If there are only 2 human players in a 2 versus 2 battle, then the human players will always be put on opposite teams. If there are 3 human players, then you would have 2 humans versus 1 human and the AI.

In multi element dogfights can both of your elements “gang up” onto say the leader of element 1. or if there are two elements a side do they pair off first ? as in 2 pairs chasing 1 guy

There isn't a simple answer to this one. It is certainly possible for two elements to gang up on one opposing element. Your wingman is there to protect the leader, so there are circumstances where you may be able to attack the wingman, but not the leader. Once the wingman is gone, the leader is definitely more vulnerable. The sequence is such that play alternates between sides, so you typically won't have both elements on one side going first followed by both elements of the other side.

[Kiith]

Originally posted by bartbert:

When playing games locally, the only option is to play against the AI. If you're playing online, then you can play against other players, or against the AI. That's true whether you're playing regular dogfights or the campaign game. In regular dogfights, you can have up to four elements involved, and some of those could be human opponents while others are controlled by the AI. The campaign game is only two player, however.

Thanks for your answers bartbert and Dan, but I'm still a little confused by parts of the above statement, so please can you clarify one point for me.

Can you play the campaigns solo against the AI locally (i.e. offline)?

Thanks

[bartbert]

Can you play the campaigns solo against the AI locally (i.e. offline)?

Campaigns are an online feature only, but you can play against the AI or against a human.

[Tomb]

also brings up the question, how many human players can play in any one online game ?.

i would assume this would be a dog fight game (scored on the leader board ?)

from the reviews i get the impression campaign pilots dont progress ?

would i be correct in assuming your pilots progressed in dogfights are not progressed in campaign's (or used ?) do pilots progress in campaign games at all other than fatigue (negative progress).

i am forming the impression that thier are two distinct and seperate games, the dogfight game and the campaign game.

regards

[Moon]

Essentially, you're right about this, Tomb. Campaigns come (currently) with their set of pre-defined pilots which are different from the pilots that you'd generate (and see evolve and improve) for dogfights. This is required to ensure play balance in campaigns.

BTW, this is not to say that you couldn't make your own campaigns "on the fly" with your custom (dogfight) pilots. All you need is to agree with a player (or players) about a series of dogfights to be played in succession and some kind of scoring system, and you have a campaign.

Oh, and to answer your question, currently the max amount of players per dogfight is 4 (4 elements of 2 aircraft each, i.e. max of 8 aircraft per dogfight).

Martin

[bartbert]

There are indeed two major types of games. What we call "Single Mission" games are the ones where you play with a pilot that you have created. As the pilot flies missions, he gains experience points (XP) and can cash those in to purchase skills, and he will also be able to fly better aircraft.

"Single Mission" games can be either a "Dogfight" (fighter versus fighter only) or an "Escort" (one side escorts a bomber while the other side intercepts). "Dogfights" can be either 1-on-1 (2 players) or 2-on-2 (4 players). Any slots not taken by a human are filled by the AI. "Escorts" are always 2-on-2, but the bomber slot is always controlled by the AI, so you could have at most 3 human players. Both "Dogfight" and "Escort" games count toward Leader Board stats.

Campaign games give you a set pool of pilots and aircraft that are available for a given campaign. The pilots have pre-set skills. Your pilots from "Single Mission" games do not show up here because it would have been very difficult to balance the campaigns with that kind of variable thrown in. Pilots in campaigns do not gain XP and skills, although they do gain fatigue. The reasoning is that the focus of the campaign game is on managing your resources (pilots and aircraft) to control objectives on the campaign map. The focus of the "Single Mission" game is individual pilot development.

[Frenchy]

Interesting - the campaign game reminds me of Flight Commander II's campaign feature where you had "x" number of pilots with set abilities and you had to husband them through the missions you had to fly.

[Haohmaru]

I presume that with the single player game it is possible for the pilot to die right? Then you'll have to start over? How is it determined whether or not a pilot crash lands or is able to bail out, is it dependant on the card played or a random variable? Also with the skills that are available are there enough to really customise your pilot or will most aces end up with very similar traits?

[Moon]

Yes, your pilots can die. Safe bailouts depend on a random variable (essentially drawing a card to stay within the card game terminology). But there are skills that can affect the outcome ("escape death" or "target pilot" for example, the latter of which is a mean skill with which you can decrease the chances for the other player's pilot to escape to safety).

Once killed, you lose that pilot. However, since most of the time you will need more than 1 pilot (or more precisely, one element - leader and wingman) due to how fatigue works (you cannot keep flying one guy over and over), the loss does not mean that you have to start over completely usually.

As for skills, there are dozens already, and more will be added after the game goes live. Also, the cost (experience points you have to spend to buy skills) for certain skills depends on how many and what skills you already have. Meaning that you will have to make some tough choices early on, and it's unlikely that any two pilots will be the same after a certain amount of playing...

Martin

PS. I forgot to mention the other possibilities to customize your pilots, like medals, rank, images you can upload for your pilots and the like. Believe me, it does hurt when you lose a top ace. I just did lose my best Japanese pilot a couple of days ago and it's left a gap...

[Kiith]

Will there be any way of using experence to personalise you pilots planes with custom graphics for spinner’s, engine cowlinings, kill marking and the like? If not would there be any possiblity of including them in a future release?

Also do Medals and rank give you any bonuses in game terms?

[ January 12, 2005, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: Kiith ]

[bartbert]

Being able to have custom graphics for the aircraft is definitely on the "wish list" for a future release. We know how much people like to personalize these things.

Medals and Ranks have no effect in game terms. They are purely for bragging rights at this time. Getting promoted to higher Ranks is based on how successful your missions were and a random factor. The higher Ranks get progressively more difficult to obtain. Medal awards are based on achieving certain criteria during a battle and the more valuable medals (Victoria Cross, Medal of Honor, etc) will be awarded infrequently.

[Kiith]

Cool it's good to know that it's on the wish list as it's something that i'd really like to have the option of doing.

Just another random thought. Once you lose your career pilot is their record deleted or is it retained until it's surpassed on the leader board?

[bartbert]

Dead pilots do not show up on the main Leader Board. However, we don't delete their data from the database, so we will have the ability to do a "Hall of Fame" type listing of the greatest pilots dead or alive.

[Moon]

Hehe, sometimes even the guy coding the game can be wrong The LeaderBoard does show "inactive" pilots...

Martin

[bartbert]

The guy coding the game is frequently wrong. Just ask my wife.

[Tomb]

I was going to ask those questions about pilot loss but since they have been answered here’s some more.

I can quite understand that combat persistence (fuel/ammo) has been lumped into six turns as a tactical factor

However fuel was a big issue in campaigns

Specifically the Battle of Britain and the allied daylight bomber raids

No details are cited for Daylight bombing so I’ll talk about the BoB

Will their be restrictions on which units can deploy in which zone ?

I see in the BoB campaign that Edinburgh (the correct spelling by the way you have a two G in yours which is in Scotland. The 109 was notoriously short on range and could just make it past London and the south coast I assume we won’t be seeing 109s over bonnie Scotland or Ju87s for that matter ?. Their were raids oop north but they were done by bombers escorted by 110D (extra fixed external belly fuel tank)s so at a stretch you could use the 110C’s

For the Daylight bomber campaigns this really should be factor for the allies

Also radar was a huge factor will the RAF player be blind or does the Luftwaffe set up and the RAF respond (radar) for the Daylight raids the situation would reverse (german radar)

Point of Trivia I see the American medium bomber is B25C Mitchell so if or when this is used remember it was the RAF that flew these in the ETO daylight raids the USAAF flew the B26 Marauder

Might I also suggest a future campaign (using the daylight bomber map ?) call it…Gasp Night bomber, using Lancasters, Wellingtons, Mossie FBIV (night fighter) and the Me 110C (nightfighter) maybe with an element of 109G (wild sau).

While all the other campaigns were short and sharp the day/night bomber campaigns went on for years, especially night bomber. Be interesting to see how you do the daylight campaign.

The game has great potential are the campaigns editable at all ?

That will do for now

regards

[Moon]

Tomb, in the campaigns, each plane is rated for "range", and can only operate in those areas that are within its range.

Martin

[bartbert]

One thing to keep in mind about all the campaigns is that we had to try to work within the list of aircraft available in the initial release. As such, there were some compromises that had to be made in order to produce campaigns that were interesting for both sides to play and that were reasonably balanced. As more aircraft are added down the road, we'll have more options available to us in terms of historical accurracy.

Campaigns are not editable, but they are mostly database driven. So we can add new campaigns by loading the correct data in (regions, targets, pilots, etc.), and then push out a few map images.

[ January 13, 2005, 06:33 AM: Message edited by: bartbert ]

[Haohmaru]

That's good to hear that pilots are highly customisable. A big plus in my opinion. So will battlefront have it's own server then where players can chat and organise battles and where all the leaderboard data is contained? Kind of like Blizzard's Battlenet? If so, sounds really good. I might just need to invest in the "target pilot" skill when I'm up against your pilots, Moon

[Moon]

Yes to the server, but further details are TBD at this point. Getting this setup and to work properly is in fact a major part of what is still being done, and what has been delaying the release.

Martin