Tomb

yup they sure have..canada was a bit too big, something smaller needed...korea will do...hmm a draw thier..something smaller perhaps...Vietnam...nope that was a loss..smaller still panama....a pinprick of a country not even enough for a really big city...yeah victory at last. i have a theory on that the US does not seem to realise its not the size of the dog in the fight that matters (and the US is a big dog..no doubt about it) Its the size of the fight in the dog that counts (and as a nation, for the US that is very questionable at times) So apart from weapons tech moving on has anything really changed the decisive factor is the will to win who do you think has the greater will to win in Afganistan ? the Taliban or the US ? the US and its allies can and do pound the taliban (or whatever they were or are called next) into the dirt every day... as have many nations and empires over hundreds of years yet they keep on going that is the will to win and it will be decisive. has that changed since the US invaded Canada last ?

its not that simple the last two attempts to invade Canada the US made, the US were defeated both times

i regard rocket units on this scale as anything from a load of truck mounted rockets to V1's to V2's, nowhere does it say they are V2's anymore than a Pz Mk111 is unit full of Mk III's, no its a tank unit with infantry, arty and all the rest of the componants and so with a rocket unit, how you use it represent what it is, if you want to blast other units then its truck mounted tactical weapon, from the french coast then a V1, from further afield its a V2, by the way thier is hugh precident using tactical weapons to achieve strategic results and strategic weapons to get tactical results. vietnam and gulf wars to name but two more recent ones. on this scale the rocket unit represents a caperbility rather than a specific weapon and so it should, as it does for all units, especally navy unit, the capital units would not be on thier own. on a historic sense any time the axis has deployed such a unit it has been smothered by my allied air power just like operation cross bow, musy try and use them in my current game as axis cheers whoever suggested that i need to put a dent in the russians

the mossie has 4x20mm cannon and 4xmg thats 8 guns placed in and around the centerline it is easily the one with the mostest in terms of guns

{p51}Sure one. They shot down more fighters than any other in the war. i think not since the spit was fighting for 6 years compared to the mustangs 18 monthes and the 109 had been fighting since the spanish civil war. lots of planes got shot down during the battle of britain, however it was that intense for for 5 years on the russian front so it is highly likely to be the 109 shot down the most planes by a very long way probally followed by something russian

atually the first pilot past a hundred was Duke and he did it the hard way in the full game he very rarely flew in the demo

i normaly go for the high or low position but thier is one player out thier that plays extremely well from the medium hieght. i thought thier was no real advantage in doing this though he clearly showed thier can be, i am sorry i forget his name, but you will know him when you meet him. i think in the full game many will change thier style because in the demo all the planes are roughly the same but in the full game some planes such as the jappanese zeros have agilty which means they can scissor you and end up behind you, though they are fragile. plus the me 110 has a rear gunner which means he can shoot at you when you are in his six. also survival skills become far more important in the full game since you can and do meet planes that are better or worse than yours with pilots who are better or worse than yours. sometimes you get a milk run sometimes its enough just to survive. add in the varible of escorting bombers and it can get a bit sticky indeed. however bomber missions are where the points are. all the nationalitys are not so similar as they are in the demo, each has a particular flavour as you will see. thier is no "best plane" you have to pick a career track that suits your flying style and get the pilot skills to match your plane choice happy hunting and watch out for that Dan bloke or moon they do seem to like flying the "meat balls" flavour of aircraft..and are practiced at it...you have been warned

this is not the case, in the RAF the best pilot or most experianced usually led not the highest ranked the wise leader knew this some died finding it out, some got lucky and survived finding it out you do create a new flight if the leader dies the wingman becomes the new leader with all his wingman points back to spend on leader skills hope that helps you

Ohhh kozure you should know better the more practised are expert at letting the "vulchers" come howling on down from on high, it gives them confidence,ussualy misplaced watch out for that DanVerssen bloke, he bimbles along like he hasn't a care in the world. you might well get hold of the tigers tail...but he can still turn round and bite your head off, reflect on that when your floating down in your 'chute In DiF there is more than one way to shoot the tiger...or indeed get bitten by it.

Somewhere on an Airfield in England A war correspondent is listening in to Duke discussing survival tactics, he is talking to a new pilot called Noob Well you see Noob its not about flying all hours of the day in an attempt to beat my Score Duke says ,its all about lasting long enough which means the Rookie pilots who dive in with only shooting down their opponents on their mind with no consequence of what happens after they succeed..you see they may get their man but they can have their victory painted on their tomb stone…oh and on my plane too, Duke nods towards His aircraft where his maintenance team are adding another 2 crosses below the cockpit. , I take it those two did not know what hit them either Ginger asks, Duke just smiles So what do I do Duke, well Ginger you notice in the last combat report that I always flew beneath the combat knowing full well the rookie pilot will dive into the waiting arms of me and my wingman, you see the rookie pilot does this to gain a card and if its good enough to succeed in escaping from his pursuer, why I am waiting for him because I will be going next and I have not been using my cards to escape from anyone so have a full set plus any for the dive. Ahh noob says Plus Duke points out that in their blind panic rookies are not looking where they are going, you should not climb or dive into MORE enemies, go the opposite way or better yet head towards friendlys, if you have a good team mate he will know what you are doing. So what do I do, what do I do if I have a bandit on my six Noob shouts excitedly Well at this point of the war your defensive thinking should be ,I have a handful of junk cards which I cant use to escape how can I use that to help me. Well the rookie will dive down to gain a card, his opponent will give one up and will throw away his worst card..and you know he will also gain one for diving and it may be better than the one he had to throw away….diving to escape does not look too wise now does it Noob. Hmm Noob ponders just then they are both interrupted by a banshee howl as a spit screams across the airfield at full speed ..rips the flag of the flag pole with his wingtip and executes three crisp victory rolls, Sailor has had a good day Duke says… No young Noob if you want to escape ,reduce your opponents options, you must climb, you give up a card to do so and since you are holding cards that can’t help you, give one up and use it to climb, your opponent must give one up also plus he must give one up to follow and if you live long enough you may learn the Shake Him skill which means he loses another card and if you think ahead Noob you will replace your card at the end of your turn and your opponent has lost 2 which will not be replaced until the END of his turn. You also have the benefit of reducing the wingmans cards if you can drag him up real high. You have improved your chances of surviving a hit, perhaps changed your cards for hopefully better ones while reducing the tailing bandits cards If you find you have vertical roll in you hand young Noob you can play it which means you go up another level and it will again cost you opponent 2 cards to follow, if he does not it will still cost another card to climb up to you so by using one useless card and a vert roll you have cost your opponent 4 cards and its at this point he is regretting the decision to follow you. So young Noob remember to use the vertical and head for the angels as they may save you, if you head for hell you might just meet it. In the distance much shouting can be heard and a young chap has been de-bagged and is being tossed into the pond…that’s for constantly getting a guy I had cornered in my six off me Duke points out ..not once but twice too, its hard to scissor a guy if your buddy keeps getting him off your 6.. he then left me open for the second element to attack since we were all neutral position now…I thought I had pointed out it important not to leave your opponent with a free element to choose his attacks, fortunately he got himself shot down so I could get on with shooting down 2 more of the pesky Hun…still he is new he will learn. Noob notices that Dukes Plane look rather shiny..could it be new.. and his parachute bag is in tatters Noob looks in askance, Well Duke points out, these are guidelines Noob and will stand you in good stead most of the time but they don’t cover every situation and sometimes you just get bad luck. Oh and by the way check your plane is ok BEFORE you take off since entering combat with a smoking plane is bad form Noob has the sense to keep his mouth firmly shut

From our correspondent at the front…interview with Flt Lt Duke VC, DFC 43 kills Rumour had it the Ace of Aces Pilot Duke was going to fly so your war correspondent hung around the airfield to see if it was true. Yes their he is nonchalantly strolling out to his Spit 1, his beloved Spit V is grounded at the moment, His wingman Cain in animated discussion waving his arms about in what is undeniable fighter pilot speak for manoevers..one hand getting on to the six of another… The props begin to turn, the engines coughing as the merlin engines suddenly roar into life before being brought back to a smooth rumble Chocks away , I will have bacon and eggs for breakfast please, I’ll be back soon. On another airfield over the channel four 109s are whining as their inertia starters kick the props over and with an angry bellow their engines burst into life, the 109s don’t sound as smooth as a merlin but rumble with an angry staccato bark, and you know they mean business. Eight planes lift in to the air, rumour also has it a legendry japenese pilot on loan to the Luftwaffe has also taken to the air…we are not sure what he looks like but has a very pale face..so much so its rumoured he is called “Moon”. Well Duke likes to be first or last so he flips a coin in the cockpit, heads high, tail low..It’s heads so Duke climbs up to very high. Searching the sky for bandits Duke sees four dots very far below at very low height. Dukes second element leader Strauss has chosen medium height so the turn order shakes out as Duke first, followed by a 109 pair as element 2, then Dukes second pair (Strauss) at medium height as element 3 and the final 109 pair as element 4. The 109s seem to be acting in concert and have given themselves the maximum cards by being very low…that moon he’s a old hand at this. So duke rolls over and begins the dive to high and gains a card (he only has four losing 2 for being very high) plus he picks on more up for being under spits 6 Perf at the end of his turn. One thing Duke has noticed, novice players don’t consider the consequences of using the Height bands at all, most taking the default medium. Very high in this case with a spit 1 I like just for the choice of going first and Duke has sufficient pilot skills to fight up here, High band would probable a better choice since he could at least exchange a card, how ever he has taken his turn, has the initiative and is now up to 6 cards. Element 2 the lead 109 unit comes up from very low alt to low alt and loses a card doing so. Duke ponders why he likes the very low position also and it because you can better configure your hand by discarding card’s you don’t want in the climb plus you can turn over more cards if your hand is really bad, though you might lose the benefit of the extra cards you gained by being low. This is the risk you take you may well have an outstanding hand or a merely mediocre…but you have the chance to get a good one So my second pair which is another Human who’s pilot is called Strauss over which I have no control has his turn. He is at medium I am hoping like heck he does not dive down to low since to do so would mean element 4 (109s) would climb up to take him on and have a free shot since I could only dive to medium next turn,it’s also crucial to remember the wingman has his turn BEFORE the leader choose’s his height and therefore will play no part in the ensuing action the wingman can only play his turn at opponents that START at the same level as him. So if Strauss dive’s down he will get one go at nailing a 109 and if he blows it 4 109s will be having a go at him, even if he succeeds 3 109s will run him out of cards and their fore options very quicky. Nerves get the better of Duke “CLIMB CLIMB” he yells over the radio Strauss Climbs up to high, Duke breathes a sigh of relief, both pairs can now cover each other. The last element (4) of 109s climbs to join his buddies at low level Duke to go next looking at his hand he has 3xIn My Sights 1x2 cards (to shoot with) and 1x Out The Sun 3x4 card plus a scissor card plus 1 barrel roll card. Well no maneover cards and 1 defence card (barrel roll), no way am I diving into 4 109s so I discard the biggest shot card the Out the Sun 3/4 and stay high. Why you ask, why not lose one of the smaller ones. Simple I have no cards to position myself to use it and Duke reckons many of his 43 kills held onto cards they could not possible use and exchanging might well have saved them by giving them a defensive card right when they needed it most. The spit 1 has a burst rating of 1 so I can use all the IMS 1x2 cards in head on passes if I have too, if I don’t get any cards to get on a guys six, but I have a more devious plan but more later. So golden rule “honour the threat” don’t get shot down holding a hand full of shooting cards, you have a guy behind you. You are now a TARGET you need every defence card you can lay your hands on to defeat his shots and shake him. Remember when he’s finished blasting at you he will be picking up more cards to do it again, you will need your cards to defeat his shots and get rid of him and shooting cards you cant use wont help you in any way except to give it away in a climb maybe. So element 2 (109s) also does nothing and perhaps changes some of his cards, my wingy Strauss also keeps station on my wing at high Alt, at this point taunts exchanged over the radio and Duke looks over the side and sees something white in the cockpit far below, perhaps it a face but is looks pretty ugly…ahhh maybe its not his face..maybe that’s why the call him moon…but then again Element 4 (109’s) gets Bold and climbs to medium alt. At this point its Dukes turn and he has a rubbish hand but decides to be bold and go for a head on pass, the plan is to ping the leader or make him use his cards avoiding it and let the leader turn to get angles on us and then scissor him to put him out in front therefore I would get to use my 3x IMS 1x2 cards, 1 for the head on pass and 2 after the scissors on the following turn relying on lady luck to give me a few defensive cards. It’s a gamble but I am willing to try it. I am making the assumption Strauss will follow me down. The dive begins and I gain a card, lady luck is smiling today a half loop is my card gained for the dive so Duke instantly switches attacks to the wingman since he will only get two cards to defend himself with, I have a potential 6 point of damage to inflict with the three bursts a loop will give me on the wingman who can only defend with two cards to the leaders six. And Duke only needs to inflict five point of damage to down a 109E Duke feels confident the 109 wingman will be smoking or shot down, and if he going to risk his neck it must be worth it Duke screams under and over, loops onto the 109Es six Duke fires his first IMS 1x2 the wingman barrel rolls Duke counter with his barrel roll momentry wondering about using his 1 defence card…no I want the kill, the shot hits Duke fires his second burst, the wingman turns, to not avoid this shot will cause him certain damage and he will be smoking Duke counters the Turn card with a scissor card the burst hits and the 109 wingman is smoking with no cards left, Duke closes in and puts the final burst in to down the 109, a chute blossoms. He has used 5 cards and has two left he picks up 2 more leaving him with 4…damm OTS 3x4 and a IMS 1x1…Duke is in trouble Element 2 (109s) climbs up and has a pop at Dukes wingman landing a 2 point hit. Strauss to go, will he dive down and help me out…indeed can he. Ok very few understand the importance of the TURN order. As a rule of thumb element 2 (the first 109s) have had their turn so the desirable thing for Strauss to do now would be to attack element 4 (109s) since they have not had their turn and putting them on the defense means Duke will go next against element 2 putting them on the defensive since element 4 MUST play against Strauss leaving Duke free to engage element 2. to not do so would leave element 4 free to attack either Duke or Strauss Also the second reason is if Strauss dives and kills either of the remaining pair you would have 2 singletons holding up to twelve cards between them (6 cards each). If you kill the solo then that leaves a wingman with two cards plus the leaders 6 for only 8 cards plus only one element can be engaged by the 109s leaving the other element free to kill the wingman. So how to get this across in one radio call. “Strauss kill element 4” is the best Duke can manage. Strauss dives and attacks the leader of the pair (element 2) leaving element 4 (109s) free to attack anyone Nooooo thinks duke in despair at least attack the wingman Strauss Zooms into position behind the leader and fires an IMS destroyed the 109 barrel rolls Strauss counters the 109s rolls again Strauss counters again its all going very fast but it ends when Strauss counters the 109s desperate attempts for the last time and the 109 disintergrates a chutes pops Duke is impressed with Strauss unforntunatley the wingman becomes the leader and gains 6 cards Element 4 109 makes his choice and goes after Dukes wingman and manoeuvres against him which the wingman Cain counters but the 109 insists gaining position fires a burst which Cain counters, fires another burst which Cain cannot counter and leaves Cain smoking with a rough running engine. Dukes turn again his wingman goes first and plays against element 4 ..half loop again, its Dukes lucky day and as he says “he would rather be lucky than good” the wingman neatly places Duke on the 109s 6 Duke fires a IMS 1x1 to ping his opponent, it standard practice amoung the more experienced players to let that one hit to save the defensive cards for the big one you know is coming..it’s a game of bluff since the 109 in front of Duke does not know Duke has no counter cards whatsoever, he lets rip with the big one OTS 3x4 hoping the 109 does not have vertical dive or ace pilot cards Kaboom poor old element 4 109 explodes killing the pilot and a funeral march can be heard. Well the surviving 109 attempts to get rid of Strauss and fails, Strauss fails to hit him Duke dives below the pair and this goes on until every one is at Very low Alt. There is one final lesson on the last turn when it was clear both Strauss and the survivor had few cards and Strauss could not kill him he should have left him to Duke and his wingman to finish it on the last turn Duke did notice the 109 made damm sure not to shake off Strauss Strauss had tasted Blood and wanted more, quite understandable. Duke flew and Strauss now had winking fuel lights and it was time to break off and go home. The surviving 109 no doubt discovered adrenaline is brown and smelly and will need new trousers and a new 109 Sadly their will be an empty chair at the 109 sqn tonight Duke and Strauss will be painting kill marks on their planes and ponder the lessons learnt today over bacon and eggs Duke will go on looking for the perfect kill for he is a hunter and he will hunt again End interview

sorry for your loss thier moon, but i think im right in saying my second top ace "Sailor Malan" showed Hara the way of the parachute.. In fact did not pilot Hara say he was washing his hair instead of flying when pilot Duke was free however be warned you budding aces out thier pilot Duke and his wingie Cain are scary to meet, dont forget..count to three...pull D-ring..look up and check chute... Pilot Duke might even give you a friendly wave as you float down however some of AI pilots have shown the ace of aces "Duke" the way of the parachute in a few of his recent missions. As you guys will find out its very nerve racking flying one of your faverite pilots after he has used his escape death card..you can get it back...but only by flying combat unlike other online combat games where you can be shot down a million times with no ill effect's In the world of Down in Flames you can lose it all... K/D ratio is irrelavent here since you only get one death in many ways Down in Flames will reach those places many other more conventional flight sims wont.. getting hot and sweaty because you can lose your virtual pilots life is one of them enjoy the game folks Flt Lt Duke VC DFC and bar RAF 37 kills

Dan, i can do that would you like that on the board or via email? regards

Kiith, you dont think Dans going to change his P47 burst rating ,cos of me do you. I think not. It was a discusion point and it wont stop me buying, playing or enjoying the game. i got a look a brief look at the board game version the other day, i must say its far more comprehensive than the computer version as revealed so far, but lacks the pilot role play. out of interest the Me 262 had a 2+1 Burst/damage rating. The main draw online is the greater number of opponants and creating a pilot and seeing how far you can take him. for the board game i'll will be lucky to find 3 or 4 opponants (assuming i can actually get my own copy) i look forward to playing alongside you or shooting your butt off, either way regards

Hi guys. To address Kilths point that the P47 should have 2 burst’s as an incentive. I going to pretend you didn’t say that…..are we not suggesting a more scientific method To address the 20mmFF well the later versions were firing the minegeshoss round which is what only 92 grams The basic facts were as tested and evaluated, is that the hispano was twice as effective as the 20mmFF and the 151 was half as powerfull again as the 20mmFF this would give a rating of 4 for the 20mmFF 6 for the 151/20 and 8 for the hispano. The system I outlined, would I grant underrate by 1 the 20mmFF and overate the 151/20 by 1 I feel Dans system underrates cannon and overates the MG. Given the new information of extra damage well that’s good. Given that Dan says I was thinking that with the additional number of bullets being fired (from 8 guns), there would be a greater chance of hits, thus it might be worth more than its low weight might indicate. This is way I increased it to a 2 instead of a 1. Ok it’s a fair comment but I would point out that that (giving both guns their max values) rate of fire is 8x1200 for the .3 is 9600 and 8x850 for the .5 is 6800. So why does the 8 gun spit1/hurri 1 not benefit since they fire nearly a third more rounds the the P47 ? I think you will agree that’s a bit of a flaw, why should the P47 be given the golden BB’s ? if rate of fire is the factor plus weight of fire then you are back to where I started all this on Dans system 8 x .5 guns x 2 points =16 and 4 x 20mm x 4 points is also 16 which gives them the same destructive power. I am inclined to think absolutely not. If we look at rates of fire for a second Spit/hurri 160 rds/sec (8x.3) P47 113 rds sec (8x.5) Mossie 30 rds sec (4x20) +(80x.3) 109K 10 rds sec (single 30mm) Me262 43 rds sec (4x30mm) I include the 262 because with its closely grouped 4x30mm in the nose its rightly regarded as top of the heap in terms of destructive firepower. Though its not in DiF The actual hit rate was for the average pilot was 2% but im going to be way generous and assume you are right in his Six at close range and say lets have 10% of what you fire hitting the target This means 8 gun spit 16 x .3 rounds hitting, P47 11.3 x .5 rounds hitting 4 gun mossie 3x20mm hitting + 8x.3 1 gun 109K 1x30mm round hits 4 gun 262 4.3x30mm Now lets look at destructive power For fighters we know that 1x30mm round is fatal and 3-5x20mm is fatal we also know 3 secs of .3 is fatal lets say 48 rounds is enough an lets be generous and allow just 34x.5 rounds to be fatal The 262 would be over kill destroying the wreckage since the first hit was enough, the 109K was just enough, the 4x 20mm just make the bottom range for a kill The MG armed fighters will still need another 2 seconds and the 20mm might need another second. Bear in mind this is the ETO. I think there is justification to increase the 8 gun fighters to a 2 burst rating (more chance of a hit) given this statement that Dan says I was thinking that with the additional number of bullets being fired (from 8 guns), there would be a greater chance of hits, thus it might be worth more than its low weight might indicate. This is way I increased it to a 2 instead of a 1. since both the spit1 and hurri 1 both have 8 guns and a third greater rate of fire. i think if you apply a rule it should be across the board and even handed perhaps also consider in addition, increase damage rating for cannon armed planes , +1 for two or more 20mm or 1 or 2 x 30mm and +2 for 4x30mm or more How would this look well the spit1 v 109E would give a spit more chance to hit with a burst rating of 2+0 rating and the 109E would have a 1+1 rating, more chance of damage This would think reflect the historic battle of Britain choices of more chance to hit (Brits) to more damaging hits (germans) The 109G would be a 1+0 rating it was under gunned, which is why they hung 2 more on it the 109G6/r6 would then become 2+1, the P47 would remain at 2+0 the 109K would also be 1+1 the mossie would be 2+1 However I think the simple solution is to drop the P47 to 1 burst since evidence would suggest you had the same chance to hit no matter what guns or how many you had, what varied was the destructive power and 4x20mm is way above 8x.5cal, about twice better i reckon Thoughts on that lot.

heh heh, i guessed that might be it (ROF) so i will point out 8 gun hurri and 8 gun spit, which fire at a higher rate. the RAF also thought this way for a while and tried 12 guns as in the hurri IIa they found the old ww I lesson was relearnt..you missed just the same, only with more ammo. and the increase in damage was again not that great when you hit. incidently the average pilot will only hit 2% of his shots, 4% with a gyro sight. the basic technique remains the same, get close and let them have it. against a guy who cant shoot back anyway, against a bomber formation that could get real dangerous. during testing the RAF thought to up gun to .5 cal but found the improvement was not much greater than the .3 cal so went for the 20mm which greatly improved destructive power. you must remeber though at that time the RAF was interested in shooting down bombers and MGs were inadaquate so over to cannons, after the bomber threat was largly over 4x20mm was overkill and of short duration. so a mixed armament was preferred IE MG+cannon this is in fact true for all the comabatants except the USA which pretty much stuck to MGs (except p37/P38) analysing this you can see that the USA was fighting lightly built and lightly armoured jappanese planes..the all MG armament was good enough. in the ETO against the germans against fighters all MG armament was also good enough. to press the point those who had to fight bombers IE the lufwaffe,the RAF and the russians all had to upgrade to cannon Mg was not good enough the germans had the most difficulty and found MGs not good enough in fact they found the best solution was more rapid firing harder hitting Cannon. in a firing pass you simply could not get enough Mgs rounds on target in the time availible . in fact even 4x20mm was marginal what was needed was a one kill weapon (rockets) or only a few rounds (30mm) germans did not build big heavly armed and armoured bombers so 20mm was enough 20mm was also the choice of night fighters since in a short firing pass it would kill other nightfighters (serrate mossies V 110's) The 110s however (G model) still packed the 30mms as they needed to kill 4 engined heavys. interestingly in the schrage musik instalation, the slow firing 20mm Oerlikon was preferred, a slow but certain kill was preferred by settin the bomber alight, lets face it a heavy cannon rapid kill with a bomber carrying a 12000lb bombload exploding above your head only a few hundred feet away is a seriously bad idea. some other things to consider are solid rounds ie bullets are less effective at high speeds and high alts, HE rounds explode just as well at any speed and Alt bear in mind those wieght of fire numbers i presented do not account for the extra damage an explosive shell would cause, But as they are, they produce a result that "feels right" and can be supported by giving the right results ingame to match historical evidence. In DiF as in real life i feel a eight MG fighter or a two cannon fighter has an equal chance to hit and kill if you are sat right behind another fighter a two MG fight however would need to try a bit harder (the zero burst rating) however against a heavy bomber this would not hold true, MGs are going to show a serious lack of destructability compared with cannon. lets take the head to head case a in which you get a spit second to fire an MG may put out more rounds but few will hit and unless you get lucky not much significant damage will get done however if just a few 20mm round land you are going to hurt and if just one 30mm round hits you wont have an airplane any more. am i convincing you ? I would suggest the cannon factor is undervalued if its 1,2,4,6+ and really should be 1,2,8,20 for .3,.5,20mmhispano,30mm Mk108 also use 3 for oelikon based weapons (german Jap model 99 mk1) and 7 for mauser 151 types. are you convinced ? regards

Hi Dan, Kilth Yes indeedy the 110C is my typo I stand corrected, however is the P47 really worth 2 “bursts” since so many other 1 burst planes have higher firepower?. Yes Kilth using the arbitrary system then Dans system makes the p47 more powerful than a cannon armed plane I would suggest you would be hard pushed to find evidence that 8 Mgs is equal to four rapid firing cannon, while planes flew home with hundreds of Mg hits nobody would be in anything resembling an airplane after hundreds of cannon hits, in fact I doubt their would be enough left to get hundreds of cannon hits. I think you can visualise my point However I would hope that I could convince Dan to change to a more reasoned system with a more scientific basis. I put the weight of fire per gun so it could be seen how the numbers were arrived at. I think you can see the 20mm hispano should be four times the factor of the .5 and eight times the .3, not two times the .5 and four times the .3 as in the arbitrary system. I did a lot of research on this back in 1999 using the RAF/USAAF/Luftwaffe research Data. Basically I found their was only fractional differences between MG types for weight of fire so only two types were needed Normal (.3) and heavy (.5) However their was great difference between 20mm cannon types with the worst being the oerlikon 20mm FF (3 points) and the best being the Hispano (8 points) The Japanese basically used the oerlikon or mauser or derivations thereof. Anyway here is an extract the old way of gunfire/damage modelling is weight of fire assigned a point value and everything extrapolated from then on for example a rifle size round round is given a value of 1 for a 1 sec burst and is about .4 lbs a second weight of fire while a 30mm which is not quite 8lbs a second is 20 times greater so we give it a value of twenty and we know that 1 30mm round will destroy a fighter plane structure so we assign a value of 20 to the structure we also know that a 3 sec burst from a hurricane will also destroy a fighter 8x .303 = 8x 1 point in our system x 3 seconds = 24 points of damage..It’s looking good..the sums add up Link to article part 1 if this subject interests you be warned it quite long and has two parts but is outside the scope of DiF Flying for many years in various online flightsims it soon becomes obvious that a good pilot in a two gun Ki43 can rack the kills up as effectively as a six or eight gun fighter. No board game really represents this (never played DiF). For me however the DiF system is perfect with the IMS cards since a 1:1 card can be landing a full 2 gun MG burst but nowhere vital, to clipping an opponent with a 8 gun MG or cannon burst. At the other end the IMS :destroyed card can be the 2 gun Ki43 putting all the rounds through the cockpit to kill the pilot, to the eight gun fighter shredding his opponent, to the cannon blowing it apart. Is it realistic, I would argue yes since many JAAF pilots became aces in a Ki43, doing that in most board games I have tried is damm near impossible So my point is to only change the wieght of fire IE “burst” per plane to something more representative. In fact only the P47 needs downgrading to 1 burst instead of 2. Thoughts ?

bear with me first a few boring numbers FP means fire power, burst is the in Dif rating FP plane burst 2 Ki27 0 3 P35 0 4 Glad 0 4 109B 0 4 KI43 0 ------------------- 6 P40B 1 8 Hurri 1 8 Spit 1 8 109E 1 8 A6M2 1 9 109F 1 10 110C 2 11 109G 1 12 P40N 1 12 F4U-1B 1 12 P51D 1 16 P47 2 16 A6M5 1 16 Ki61 1 16 P38 1 18 A6M8 1 20 SpitV 1 20 SpitXIV 1 24 109K 1 -------------------- 28 J2M3 2 32 Fw190a 2 32 Mossie 2 32 Hurri II 2 This is a table of relative firepower it is derived in usual war game fashion from weight of fire X rate of fire X number of guns We assume the .3 cal is a base line of 1 and gives an FP of 1 So approx 0.3cal =1 (0.4lbs/sec) 0.5cal =2 (0.9lbs/sec) 20mmFF =3 (1.2lbs/sec) 20mm151=7 (2.7lbs/sec) 20mm hisp=8 (3.2lbs/sec) 30mm 108 =20 (7.9lbs/sec) So you can see how the table above builds up, the dashed lines showing breakpoints (mine) very little varience between Mg types for FP so really only two 0.3cal/7.7mm and 0.5cal/13mm To my mind two inconsistances show up immediately The 110C with it low rate of fire and weight of shell..does it really rate an burst rating of 2 when so many more planes have higher firepower and the P47 with its all Mg is also a low fire power plane, the two cannon 4 Mg spits have more as does the 109k with its 30mm The other 2 burst planes have 4 cannon and this I would suggest is a more reasonable benchmark for two “bursts” since thier firepower is so much greater, three times the 110c and twice the P47. realising that this would leave the yanks with no two burst plane might I suggest the oddball of this USA plane set, the F4u-1b, which is the british corsair designation by the way, is changed to an F4u-1a or better yet an F4u-1c 4 cannon variant (FP 32) and the P47 and 110 is reviewed and reduced to 1 burst. This would put consistency in the “burst” model. Hope you are not offended by this Dan, maybe nobody has challenged any of the assumptions and when laid out in the above table, inconsistencies are more obvious have to say got interested enough that i am now after the original board game of Dif RoTL and Dif 8th airforce regards

I was going to ask those questions about pilot loss but since they have been answered here’s some more. I can quite understand that combat persistence (fuel/ammo) has been lumped into six turns as a tactical factor However fuel was a big issue in campaigns Specifically the Battle of Britain and the allied daylight bomber raids No details are cited for Daylight bombing so I’ll talk about the BoB Will their be restrictions on which units can deploy in which zone ? I see in the BoB campaign that Edinburgh (the correct spelling by the way you have a two G in yours which is in Scotland. The 109 was notoriously short on range and could just make it past London and the south coast I assume we won’t be seeing 109s over bonnie Scotland or Ju87s for that matter ?. Their were raids oop north but they were done by bombers escorted by 110D (extra fixed external belly fuel tank)s so at a stretch you could use the 110C’s For the Daylight bomber campaigns this really should be factor for the allies Also radar was a huge factor will the RAF player be blind or does the Luftwaffe set up and the RAF respond (radar) for the Daylight raids the situation would reverse (german radar) Point of Trivia I see the American medium bomber is B25C Mitchell so if or when this is used remember it was the RAF that flew these in the ETO daylight raids the USAAF flew the B26 Marauder Might I also suggest a future campaign (using the daylight bomber map ?) call it…Gasp Night bomber, using Lancasters, Wellingtons, Mossie FBIV (night fighter) and the Me 110C (nightfighter) maybe with an element of 109G (wild sau). While all the other campaigns were short and sharp the day/night bomber campaigns went on for years, especially night bomber. Be interesting to see how you do the daylight campaign. The game has great potential are the campaigns editable at all ? That will do for now regards

also brings up the question, how many human players can play in any one online game ?. i would assume this would be a dog fight game (scored on the leader board ?) from the reviews i get the impression campaign pilots dont progress ? would i be correct in assuming your pilots progressed in dogfights are not progressed in campaign's (or used ?) do pilots progress in campaign games at all other than fatigue (negative progress). i am forming the impression that thier are two distinct and seperate games, the dogfight game and the campaign game. regards

Thanks for those replies, With regards to say a spit on the tail of the 110, say the rear gunner plays an IMS does the spit get to play or counter to avoid fire or one can assume he can play his own IMS and the two planes can shoot it out Does it work something like this ? Spit on tail of 110 the 110 cant counter so plays a IMS card (for the rear gunner), does the spit now get to manover to counter that or can the spit also choose to play an IMS card so they both end up shooting at each other. ? Also on shooting can you fire head to head as some aircraft have a burst rating of 1 or 2 Since fighter attacking bomber combat is not described I can only guess how that portion of it works. The leader board, is that kills while scored while only playing online, or is that character kills scored both on or offline. The AI also makes it interesting in that Co-op missions are possible against a pure AI ? In multi element dogfights can both of your elements “gang up” onto say the leader of element 1. or if there are two elements a side do they pair off first ? as in 2 pairs chasing 1 guy regards

Having persused the various reviews I think I shall be getting this. It was not obvious that there is a single player game, im pleased to see there is. Would like to see a battle report on a bomber attack to see how that works, any chance? Would I be correct in assuming bombers are non players units ? basically targets ? Would also like to see how a 110 works under attack as it has a rear gunner but is a player plane, the only multi crew one i think. What does that rear gunner do for you ? Would also be interesting to see what “agile” does for you. I realise the game is for fun and I should close my eyes to in some cases, less than historic plane performances, since that’s the designers privilege however The 109F is described thus “ The Friedrich was the most widely produced of the Bf 109 family” anyone with even a passing interest in this period knows it was the Gustav or 109G. 70% or their abouts of total production. I would suggest an amendment their, to the 109f description 2nd quibble is turbocharger. Not really true except for the P47 but true in all cases is supercharger (the p47 had a 1st stage turbo charger blowing into a 2nd stage super charger as did the p38 The spits/mustang had 2 stage superchargers and the 109 used MW50/GM1 on a single stage Supercharger is more accurate but not quite right either, perhaps the phrase “Boosted” is more appropriate. Minor points but im the sort of person who would look this game over and while from its style I would not expect super accuracy I would not expect super inaccuracy either. The online portion looks interesting could their be a pilot character scored online only?. Be willing to bet that kind of player character would have far more personal value than running up a score against the AI, see who the true aces are LoL Hope you don’t mind the comments, board does seem a bit quiet, hopefully the game will have a fairly active player community. I will be one for sure regards

biggest airbattle of the war, how could it be missed ?

No not that one, but one where i am playing an operation (blizt krieg) against an opponant via PBEM, we have finished battle 1, recieved reinforcements etc. But the problem is the game has jumped out of PBEM, in that at end turn the game turn is not saved as a PBEM but ends as a hot seat turn. is this usual, or can operations be played as PBEM beyond the first battle and if so How ? thanks regards Tomb [ February 27, 2003, 06:49 AM: Message edited by: Tomb ]

thanks mattius/LBD very helpful regards Tomb