AAR, Rambo Axis vs Jollyguy, Ladder Game

[Jollyguy]

Battle of the Atlantic begins, I bump into a sub raiding the Canadian route, with one of my ASW 2, GLR 1 cruisers and knock the sub down to 5. The next turn it bumps into a BB trying to escape, also upgraded to 2/1. Another sub shows up and dings one of my ships. The next turn I hit both with my US and British bombers stationed in Ireland, which I took a couple turns ago. Anyway, the flyboys must have imbibed a bit too much in the spoils of war, specifically the Guiness, as both bombers missed the mark. But then the British tars must have been hitting the grog too, as the subs dived I believe six more times. So that made seven or eight successive dives.

Have pulled back in Russia to entrench. It's spring of 1943, so one thing about SC 2 is the games seem to go deeper before the strategic initiative shifts to one side.

Bob

[jon_j_rambo]

May 1943 ---

Damaged subs run, but do accomplish to kill a RN ship. Italian Navy sails into the area with some other units, but they are behind in tech to compared to enemy surface ships.

German Army attacks units around Moscow. There's a badass Russian tank in the capital. Rocket piece shoots on the tank, lots of ground units in the area.

[Yohan]

The ability of subs to take down capital ships in port has got to be pulled.

It just could not be done. Their were occassional small successes but not what is being allowed in SC2.

Also, I think there has to be a strong US trigger if the Axis navies approach the US shore as it would violate the Monroe Doctrine and would have given Roosevelt the excuse he was looking for.

[Jollyguy]

My flyboys lay of the impounded Guiness, and sink an Italian cruiser in the north Atlantic, while Rambo's subs send an RN BB to the bottom. Both navies pull back.

In Russia Rambo tries to tempt me to come out an play, but the Russian generals say nyet. I take down a German army and I think two corps, but other than some protective screening by full strenght corps of units weakend during attacks, we stick to our entrenchments. The Russian flyboys also give an account of themselves, as their numbers and experience grows. Rambo fully pulls back.

What happened in Russia is I tried to capitalize on Hungary not coming in, and then the fact that he was so spread out, but he was getting the better of the exchanges, so IMO almost always better for the Russians to inflict what damage they can, but in general, DO NOT break entrenchment, especially to pickoff a measly corp.

Right now the only country not involved is Turkey. Given Rambo's voracious for minors, who knows how long that will last.

As to subs hitting ports, I agree, that is totally anomolous. And I'm already on record as stating there should be a US readiness boost for a huge Axis navy showing up off the US East Coast. The Axis navy is also mighty strong, but I'm not sure if that's good or bad yet as to balance. After all, more Axis committment to their navy allows the Russians to build up. Time will tell.

Bob

[SeaMonkey]

Got to agree with the subs effectiveness in port attacks. Way overblown.

[realdeal]

But ports must had anti-torpedoes nest to counter subs attack I guess.I must agree with you guys, subs are way too strong.

[Guest Mike]

There's a lot of problems with naval - not jsut subs.

For example was naval gunfire really so effective as to be able to destroy corps, armies and the industrial basis of cities??

Certainly it was useful as artillery close to the coast, but I suspect it wasn't as powerful against land units as it is in this game.

Then there is nte hmatter of ports - virtually all coasts in Europe were covered by ports large and small - Anzio is a case in point - although the campaign is a by-word for problems the allies were perfectly able to supply a force of up to 100,000 men over a beachhead that they can't do so in SC.

The Germans, by contrast, had up to 120,000 men, and had great supply problems - not so in SC if you try an "Anzio" - the Germans have no supply problems and hte Allies wil be out of supply after the turn they actually land!

Anzio occured over several turns in the SC2 scale of things - from 22 January to 25 May 1944.

Certainly airpower and seapower were vital in keep the bridgehad asecure with their firepower, but land-artillery was always abole to outsoot the Germans - a matter of supply.

I wonder if SC has gone about as far as it is possible to go with coherent units & hexes(even if they are squares) as a game system - the squares are very large and the units are too coherent for a good simualtion of "real life"?

[jon_j_rambo]

All I know, my damaged subs are back in port, being reparied, refueled, and upgraded with the latest technology. Two other U-Boats are sinking Egyptian & Iraqi shipping along with an Italian sub.

In the Russian front, the shovels are digging & units are being prepped for the next phase.

[Jollyguy]

Actually there are other minors not yet involved other than Turkey, I don't think Greece is in yet. Anyway, Iran was converted in a joint British/Russian campaign, Tehran hit by a Russian airfleet, then the British tank scouted to find an empty capital. I didn't know the Persians don't start with a unit, but now I do. Well, the capital was occupied by my freshly formed Russian paratroop unit.

Other than some Russian and Yugo partisans gettng taken out, that was basically all the action there was. It's August, 1943, and things are apparently quiet, but that is due to change I'm sure.

Bob

[jon_j_rambo]

All quiet on the Eastern & Western fronts. Subs raid 20 MMPs from both Iraq & Egypt.

[Jollyguy]

August 1943, and the Red Army opens up an offensive in central Russia, backed by six upgraded level 5 tanks and three airfleets. I takeout two corps and an army, but the surprising thing was bumping into a level 1 tank with five bars of experience, elite reinforced up to 14 strength. I hit this monster with the pride of my armor forces, a 1 + bar experienced, 11 strength level 5 Siberian tank, and knock him down to 6, while getting knocked down to 4 myself. Alas, my tank is likely destined for the big armored scrapheap in the sky, to be resurrected of course at half cost. Along the front I manage to shield my damaged units with full strength corps, and in most cases leave a buffer between my units and his. Behind my frontlines other full strength units have moved into place.

As far as I can see John’s Russian force consists of center elements manned by trusty Wehrmact units, with both level 3 infantry and anti-tank capabilities, with that lone super experienced tank dead center. On his right are the Italians, and on the left Leningrad is held by a German army. He is backed up by three Luftwaffe airfleets, and a Rumanian and a Italian airfleet. I’m not sure if he’s stuck at level 1 tanks, or if the lead tank is a red herring, but I don’t see any other tanks along the frontline. I’ll find out this evening when I get home from work, but I just checked my e-mail, and he titled his turn, “We Stand,” but I don’t know if that he means he did limited counterattacks and held his line, or moved up reserves that were beyond my sight.

I got a fortuitous partisan right behind his lines at the end of my turn, so he won’t be able to operate reinforcements for a couple turns at least. However, given our last game, this battle may span months, as the Russian front is one of attrition, and there is a chance either or both of us will fall back and regroup, or, we both might decide to slug it out, which could determine for some time who will emerge with the strategic initiative. So, anxious no doubt to get home and check it out.

Out west my US bomber hit the French mine; a Yugo partisan popped up; and he hit Tobruk with two German cruisers; and he is interdicting my Egyptian and Iraq convoys, but not the Canadian route. His interdiction of the Middle East routes is a good strategic reason to go for Spain/Gibraltar, as he can support those subs with surface units and air, while the Canadian route works in my favor for the same reason, as my long range air can reach way out into the Atlantic now from Canada and Ireland.

Bob

[jon_j_rambo]

Counterattack:

1) Couple Russian tanks, dead.

2) Russian Partisan, dead.

3) Yugo Partisan, dead.

4) Russian Corp, dead.

5) Russian Army, dead.

6) Russian Army, heavily damaged.

7) Russian Air Force, not intercepting fresh LF.

Nazis want a slugfeast.

Reinforcements sent in, no issues with supply, Partisan was in the Southern part.

[Blashy]

Russian players seem to have a tendancy to want to move forward, you're entrenched, stay that way and use your troops behind to counter attack.

It is the Axis that is pressed for time, he HAS to move forward, if not by 1945 Russia would have a force almost equal that of Germany and then you have the Western powers getting in.

[jon_j_rambo]

Red Army retreated near Moscow area. We advance, multiple Communist party troops are killed. Everybody advances, including 3-Italian Armies & 1-Corp, supported by HQ.

Need weather rolls now.

[Jollyguy]

Russians retreat back toward Moscow and John pursues, while out west the Brits pull a raid near Denmark, taking the port and one city but not Copenhagen. I contemplated trying to land in Copenhagen, but figured it was too risky, as if occupied the Kriegsmarine could emerge for target practice on my amphib. After numerous pbem turns we both had a couple extra hours last night to tcp, so after landing, which was my pbem turn, during tcp I see that Copenhagen was indeed empty. I place a cruiser in port to protect my evacuation as I spotted one of his BBs, and do get one corp out, but the second one is killed awaiting evacuation. John tries to block my cruiser's escape with the German BB, but my US bomber and English air units sink it, and RN BB's I had lingering didn't committ need to battle. The cruiser sails off to fight another day.

After the Western landing John operates numerous units west and retreats from Moscow, which make probably the third or fourth time that we've moved back-and-forth across the Russian steppes to no strategic significance...yet. Stalin has tapped the vast Russian manpower reserves to reconstite units and then some, as if you've ever seen the Russian queue there literally dozens of armies that can be bought.

Out west John continues to raid, with subs on all convoy routes except Russia. I bumped into one Itallian BB in the Atlantic and saw it had not researched gun laying radar, and knocked it down to 4. It's good thing he didn't stand and fight, because the one BB that engaged him was backed up by numerous reconstitued RN units converging on the area.

In the Med he took Tobruk using an amphib force of one army and two corps, while pounding it mercilessly with two 11 strength German CV's. His cruisers are so experienced now that they seldom take any damage. Once Tobruk was subjugated he turned his attention to Greece, and hit it with 3 and 10 strength corps, with the weak three strength corp surprising me. Athens survived although those cruiser's reduced it, and I reinforced to 7, and took that 3 strength corp out with a Greek army.

That's where we stand at June, 1944. Other than my US bomber the US has not been committed at all to battle, as the Atlantic was too risky to venture across. I have attrited John's Axis navy to the tune of one German BB and one Italian CV, but the balance of his navy survives.

Bob

[Blashy]

So how about a run down of who owns what in this weird yet entertaining game.

[Jollyguy]

Well, much of what the Allies own are State secrets as they have been building up, but I’ll disclose what both of us already know:

Me: Hold the Home Islands plus Egypt, Iraq, Syria. Russia holds Iran, and still holds Moscow but not Leningrad, and still holds both forward mines down by the Black Sea. Greece has just been attacked and is in play, leaving Turkey as the only minor not involved. Level 5 tanks; level 2 Russian and UK airfleets; Level 3 infantry and anti-tank in Russia; US and Brits possess advanced bombers; Brits still possess an expansive navy, although John hasn’t seen it much…lately. And talking about navies, I think I was off base earlier saying the British carriers were just about useless, as IMO they’re great for sub hunting and going after capital ships. Naval control can be a key part of this game, and carriers can be an important part of that. I will conserve them in future games.

John: Holds all minors excepts those mentioned above. I just spotted a level two tank, but I don’t think he has too many tanks deployed, otherwise he would have used them in hot pursuit after my recent pullback following my Russian offensive; Level 3 infantry and anti-tank, but I believe nothing for the Italians; Level 2 or three airfleets, as I’m not sure which image applies to which airfleet level for the Germans. I have never seen more than three German airfleets in action at one time. He has the Italian and Rumanian airfleet also; Five German subs that I know of, at least level 3, but all subs pulled back last turn, so not sure if to upgrade or just resupply; Two super experienced German cruisers patrolling the Med, which would leave one remaining German BB; I believe four Italian surface ships and a sub, assuming he hasn’t built anymore; My distinct impression after getting a bloody nose in Russia is that he’s deployed his most experienced land units to the Eastern front.

My impression is that John is light on land units given the commitment he made to his navy. But his making the Atlantic an Axis lake for sometime after sinking the American fleet at anchor gave him breathing room out west.

Bob

[jon_j_rambo]

U-Boats raid at will for awhile. My best turn of raiding was like 70 MMPs? (Iraq, Egypt, Canada) Been looting the Egypt/Iraq one everyturn. The waves were talking to me in the North Atlantic, I could "feel" the enemy getting closer after pinging 25+ damage up there, he can't afford that. Finally, last turn, all U-Boats have scattered for the next operation

The Greek landing was bad, lost a corp apparently, oh well. Athens goes down next turn most likely. Those two German crusiers in the Med front are nice support ships with experience.

The Russian front is stacked with Bunta Armies, a Juicy Rocket, best pilots, and leaders.

The war rages on in June 1944.

[Jollyguy]

I called the game vs. Rambo, he wins as Axis. It wasn't so much Russia, as I could probably fallback slowly and had decent mpps, and also had 60 British mpps headed that way each turn, but it's basically that the Axis is just too strong in the long run.

The final straw was Rambo's AA and the dive percentage on his subs. Plus, I'm already using Rambo's take all minors Axis cookie cutter in other games, and like SC 1, this results in an eventual unassailable Axis position if the Axis is just patient and keeps plodding forward. I agree with Terif, who spotted this in like one day of playing while it took many of us nearly two months to admit it.

My take on 1.0 game balance is this:

1) Axis can revert to cookie cutter take all minors strategy, and eventually accumulate a massive economic base.

2) Amphib has too much reach. In my game with Rambo he could have invaded Canada and the US no problem like a hot knife through butter if he really wanted to.

3) Sub dive percentage is too high.

4) Combined Axis navy is too strong, but if the sub dive percentage was lower this might not be a problem. The Allies can eventually get long range air and hit the Atlantic, but unless they can attrit some subs it doesn't help much. In my second to last turn with Rambo his subs dived 7 of 8 times from a combined attack of 8 airfleets and bombers.

Terif has the right attitude though, to wait for the first patch and see where we're at. HC is very responsive, and we'll see what he comes up with. The good news is these games go into 1945 if the Allies play patiently, whereas in SC 1 it was game over in 1942 many times. I could have played better of course, but adding things up I think I made about 1500 to 2500 mpps of mistakes, which would have only bought me a handful more turns. All the Axis has to do is play rope-a-dope, hit and fall back, which is what Rambo did. Then eventually the Axis economic advantage wears the Allies down, like a heavier boxer clinchng and leaning on a lighter opponent whenever possible.

I do feel that if the Allies get just a bit of help in 1.1 that they will have a better chance of moving game balance toward even. And I still feel SC 2 is a masterpiece, and a great foundation to build from. The SC 2 games I've played so far have been a blast.

I eagerly await 1.1!

Bob

[jon_j_rambo]

Good game to Bob. He punched awhile with Russia, but the subs just had too much sting & good raiding. Had to be tought for the USA to lose their entire fleet before they were even in the war! Had to be scary to cross the Atlantic. I figured he'd go with all air force, which he did. Getting the AA (anti-air) upto level 4 was very nice. I don't know the combat charts of that tech, but it stopped his experience Bombers/fighters from ping my ports & cities.

[Tagwyn]

Sounds like a stupid game Rambler. Why bother? Tag

[hellraiser]

Tag, why do you bother posting anyway?

[Blashy]

The Cookie cutter was something we saw in beta, but the balancing act was progressing and still is in testing the patch.

[Guest Mike]

Cookie cutter is a simple function of game mechanics - it is easy to do and there are few down sides.

[aesopu]

There should be additional triggers towards the allied side -when Sweden, Iran or Iraq is attacked for example -Turkey, Greece and Ireland switches over to the allied side. Or vice versa. Or US and USSR entry is hastened by 50 or 60%. & what was mentioned is for US trigger if German subs/ships are within 3 hexes of US coastline.