Game and AI Questions Re: Egypt

[Edwin P.]

In Blashy's AAR it stated that

"April 1940...UK Corps arrived from the around the cape, landing on Alexandria."

"All troops (allied) evacute Egypt, they leave one damaged cruiser next to the 2 arrows to block access to the Allies."

In the Event that the AXIS AI decides to launch an major offensive against Egypt:

a. Will the AI (ALLIED) sometimes consider evacuating Egypt if the cause is hopeless?

b. Will the AI sometimes follow Blashy's strategy and leave a damaged (Axis) cruiser in the Red Sea to block acces to the Allies.

c. After conquering Egypt will the AI know to return units to Europe to assist in the fight there?

d. Will the Allied AI sometimes send (as per the AAR) reinforcements to Egypt?

e. Will the AI foolishly launch a Middle East Campaign if the Italian navy is decimated and the Allied Fleets control the Mediterrean?

[ December 02, 2005, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Retributar]

'Good' and 'Thoughtfull' Points Edwin P.

[JerseyJohn]

I agree, they are good points.

In reality, as was proven in the course of the Arab/Israeli Wars, the Suez Canal is easily blocked with sunken ships.

Hubert,

I'm sure by now you're tired of hearing suggestions, but how some provision for ruining major canals? The Suez in the actual scenarios and hypothetical canals in the game editor -- throughout the war Japan had plans to carry out a devastating raid on the Panama Canal.

It could easily have been accomplished and, perhaps, they ought to have done it from the start, on December 7th, with the attack on Pearl Harbor, forcing the United States to move all of it's trans ocean shipping around Cape Horn.

-- Regarding the Suez Canal, I think the Axis would have seen the Red Sea as a post war area and, in deference to the powerful UK & US navies, would certainly have blocked it off with scuttled freighters.

[Edwin P.]

Great Idea on disrupting canals.

How to do it within the current system? Perhaps;

Engineer! Engineer!

Build me a Fortress! Scuttle me a Canal! Clear the Canal!

Allow the Engineer to;

a. Build Fortifications

b. Scuttle the Locks (Suez Canal, Panama Canal - 2 turns).

c. Fix the Locks (8 turns).

For the future:

d. Airstrip in Jungle Tile (just an idea - if air units can't land in a jungle tile)

e. Build Supply Depot (terrain with stacks of oil barrels - supplies units - can't move - destroyed if occupied).

[ December 02, 2005, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Edwin P.]

I look forward to seeing the British Fleet randomly select a strategy for the opening game moves;

Strategic Focus Summary:

55% Atlantic - 30% Med - 15% Baltic

Strategic Focus Detail:

a. Protect the Atlantic (30%) - The AI focuses its fleet on protecting the Merchant shipping routes and avoiding damage from German air power until the allies are ready to invade Europe.

b. Destroy the Italian Fleet (10% - about 1 in 10 games) - Move most of the Allied fleets to Med in attempt to sink the Italian Fleet when Italy enters the war. If the Allies succeed then they execute a Conquer North Africa Strategy (ie Italian Libya). If the Allies are defeated they retreat to the Atlantic (via the Straits or the Red Sea), whichever is closer.

c. Protect Egypt (10%: 1 in 10 games). A small but strong Naval force is assigned to guard the Eastern Med.

d. Sink the German Baltic Fleet (10%:1 in 10 games)

e. Defend France (25%: 1 in 4 games)- Allied ships move in to attack any Axis units along the coast of France.

f. Egyptian Ambush (5%: 1 in 20 games) The Allies build a large fleet in the Red Sea and the Eastern Med east of Cyprus out of site of the Axis supported by air power. When Italian Navy approaches Cairo sally forth and destroy them in a surprise attack. If successful then support an Allied advance in North Africa. If not successful then withdraw the fleet back to the Atlantic via the Red Sea.

g. Western Med Ambush (5%: 1 in 20 games) - The Allied build a large fleet outside of Gibraltar. When the Italian fleet approachs to invade Vichy they sail through the straits to attack and sink the Italian Fleet. If they fail the fleet retreats to the North Atlantic for repairs. If they suceed they Allies invade North Africa, in preparation for attacking Libya and then Sicily.

h. Baltic Surprise (5%: 1 in 20 games) - The allied fleets attack the Baltic Fleet as cover for moving 3 ships to the Northern Baltic where they will wait to ambush any transports that attempt to invade Sweden or Russia OR SUPPORT INVASION OF NORWAY.

Summary: 8 Different Strategies for unpredictable Allied Naval Actions

[ December 03, 2005, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[SeaMonkey]

I like that canal blockage suggestion JJ, perhaps we can script an "obstacle" tile condition for a certain period of time. That could simulate many types of conditions, Abomb strike, impassable terrain due to weather/topography, etc.

Edwin, I hope you will send me your first scenario mod, I'm sure it will abound with great ideas. Be sure and start a thread with your initiated mod to keep us up to date of its progress.

[Edwin P.]

A few more ideas;

I look forward to seeing the Allies randomly select a strategy for the defending France; which is harder to do in SC2 than Sc1,

1. To the Front, To the Front (70%)

2. To Paris, To Paris (aka Blashy strategy)(10%)

3. To England, To England (10%)

4. To Egypt, To Egypt (10%)

----- In some games of Sc1 I have evacuated French units to Egypt from France (just a corps or two) to aid in the defense of Cairo and surprise my opponent. At the least the French unit in Beruit should move to Allied Egypt so that it becomes Free French and the French unit in Algiers should move to Gibraltar while the UK unit in Gibraltor sails around the Cape to Cairo.

[ December 03, 2005, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[JerseyJohn]

Edwin,

Great ideas and suggestions, as always.

The engineer concept sounds excellent, with it's many functions. Also, I like those Royal Navy option concepts. If Germany had ever managed to use Bismarck and Tirpitz as part of a single strike force there might have been some danger in the Royal Navy moving most of it's ships to the Mediteranean, but that never happened. They kept most of it in the Atlantic in any case to watch Scharnhorst, Gneasenau and Prinz Eugen in Brest and also to cover Tirpitz and the remaining heavy cruisers and 3 pocket battleships (armored cruisers) scattered about the Baltic and North Sea.

After losing the Graf Spee in 39 and Bismarck in 41, the German admiralty doesn't seem to have given any further thought to conducting surface actions on the Atlantic. I don't know if their strategy would have changed had the Royal Navy taken a Mediteranean first posture. Probably not; Hitler was very gun-shy after losing Bismarck.

[JerseyJohn]

SeaMonkey,

Great Obstacle Tile idea. It makes sense that the damage would be cleared gradually even if left alone. That would represent local actions slowly kicking into gear.

The owning player could always move one of Edwin's engineer units in to do the job more quickly.

-- Actually, I don't know if Hubert's already got an engineer unit. Edwin keeps better track of the design progress than I do, so I'm trusting that it isn't part of the game yet. If not, I think it ought to be, along the lines suggested by Edwin. Same with SeaMonkey's slow recovery Obstacle Tile concept.

[Desert Dave]

Actually, I don't know if Hubert's already got an engineer unit.

JJ,

Yep, there surely is one in the game.

Currently, it is only able to construct

Fortifications.

[... it is an Icon with two soldiers

instead of 1 for Corps and 3 for Army; can

be considered a place-holder also, in

the event that the Modder

wants to include some "special forces."]

Bill had a fine suggestion recently.

Allow the Engineer to act as a temporary port

For supply purposes.

This could be used to great effect

During D-Day landings.

Also,

Once the forces are established ashore,

Then help to dismantle any Fortress Europa

Kind of bulwarks the GErmans might have built,

With an EXTRA effect, IE,

If they participate in an attack,

Allow them to reduce entrenchment by 2, IE,

They are using the flamethrowers

And high explosives, etc.

Earlier in the process I had suggested

Two other uses for the Engineer:

1) It might build a SUPPLY DEPOT.

This on-screen icon would take one turn to construct, last two turns and cost... ~ 50 to 100 MPP's. And it would then BOOST the supply of all units within range for the following 2 turns.

It (... and the Engineer, during construction) would be vulnerable to air attack, should the enemy discover it by way of recon Ops.

This would allow for all-out "summer offensives" and could also help to relieve the reduced supply state of units that are somewhat isolated, IE, have exceeded the normal range of a nearby HQ, City or Port.

2) The Engineer could build an Air Base.

This might cost, say - 150 MPP's (... since it would be permanent unless and until over-run by the enemy) and would allow any Air Unit on or next to it to have a "bonus attack" on any turn.

It might appear on the map as an icon with runways and maybe a control tower.

Of course, this would "cluster" your air units within a confined area, thereby preventing wide-ranging Ops, but it could be yet another offensive boost during one of those planned "offensives."

Though if you achieved sufficient long-range air, you could place Air Bases in a couple prime locations and cover a lot of territory.

Now, NONE of these are approved by Hubert and therefore NOT coded as yet.

They may never be; or, if enough people REALLY like some extra abilities for the Enginer unit, perhaps post-release, who knows?

These are just some suggestions that Bill and I have made so that the Engineer might be more active and a sort of... "Jack of all Trades," eh? :cool:

[JerseyJohn]

DD,

Thanks for the info and the explanations behind them.

In terms of helping supply and serving as an artificial port, historically most of the supplies were landed directly on the beaches at Normandy and trucked to the extremes of France. This went on till the end of 1944, 6 months, because the mulberries had been made useless early on after severe storms and German garrisons held most of the port cities till after autumn. Those that fell were so badly damaged they took months to repair. So, the artificial port idea is perfectly valid.

Supply Depots too. It was especially important to the Soviets, who kept advancing and halting in order to build a new supply base and stockpile. Also, in their specific case, due to a combination of large numbers of combat troops with small numbers for support, the depots didn't have a very long reach, so the halts were frequent.

I like all the other stated uses for engineer units.

One of the things I really hated about COS was the way the German and Soviet engineer unit constructed fortresses so quickly and they were just as strong as the Maginot Line! It was particularly bad with the Soviet unit as it would built lond lines of fortresses while the USSR was still nuetral and the war in the USSR sometimes bogged down as though it were the Western Front 1916.

So, there needs to be some control on fortress units; perhaps they should build fortifications in stages of effectiveness so it would take, say, three turns on the same hex to give it maximum value. This would help simulate the Todt Organization and also demonstrate how damaging it was for the Germans to have them building impregnable defenses at the Channel Islands before they ever got started on the mainland.

Contrary to the view of most historians, I think the Atlantic Wall served it's purpose well. It chanelled the invasion to a specific sector while eliminating landings in others sectors, such as Calais (which the navies didn't want to land at in any case as the Channel would have been too narrow there to accomodate all the ships!). Beyond that, the fortified areas, even after the invasion came ashore, helped shield the untaken ports and enabled them to hold out all through the summer and fall.

Germany's real undoing wasn't the wall, it was it's inability to throw the invasion back into the sea on the day it was clawing it's way ashore. The Sigfried Line had a similar story. Prepared defenses are never intended to either hold out indefinitely, or to stand alone.

Here's hoping Hubert incorporates some of those ideas.

[jon_j_rambo]

Interesting enough, the Japs typically allowed the US Marines to land on the beaches, later to spring traps!

[SeaMonkey]

These are some great ideas for the use of the engineer units...accolades all around.

With such a versatile unit disclosed to your opponent can you invision the "espionage effect".

Knowing such a unit was in the proximity of an abundance of enemy units would give me the alarm of something big in the winds......or could it be just a diversion?

[Codename Condor]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

DD,

One of the things I really hated about COS was the way the German and Soviet engineer unit constructed fortresses so quickly and they were just as strong as the Maginot Line! It was particularly bad with the Soviet unit as it would built lond lines of fortresses while the USSR was still nuetral and the war in the USSR sometimes bogged down as though it were the Western Front 1916.

Yeah JJ, i remember well those trenches, and that russian fortresses were the key to get a balanced game, they were very very tuff and with AI roll advantages it always leaded to interesting games. The AI could perfectly handle the war (well, at least to hold on for some years).

HC has a much more difficult job, because SC2(and SC) is more complex, the way the supply is implemented and the HQ support makes the AI look almost dumb even tho all the fuzzy logic programming the AI just couldnt handle these issues in SC, we will see how it works in SC2.

Another interesting thing about COS was the way teh Atlantic war was implemented: SEA ZONES with random encounters and subs were just a concept where u could spend resources, i think this is a good representation for the atlantic war (altho in COS it was buggy).

Nowadys kids want to move their subs manually to attack some carriers...

Just think the reduction of time in terms of turns with this other implementation, it could dramatically reduce the time used per turn, and lead to much faster head-to-head games.

[JerseyJohn]

CC,

I agree, to me the sea war is more authentic on a strategic level if handled in large sectors with a large element of chance, rather than in hexes.

Anyone who's read the real account of the Bismarck hunt realizes how hit and miss it all was, even with radar and unopposed air recon. If it hadn't been for Adm Lutgens long and pointless radio transmissions to Germany the British Home Fleet would have sailed north while he was sailing east, to the safe haven of Brest.

Even that was after Bismarck had been shadowed, engaged, lost, shadowed, and lost a second time. It was home free and Lutgens got on the radio thinking he was still being stalked!

I'd say that sounds awfully random.

-- Those fortress hexes made by the engineer units were ridiculously tough, with supply advantages and the whole bit, very hard to knock out without an airdrop. The only saving point was that the AI in the USSR had to abandon half of them and they could just be moved through and destroyed.

-- -- I also liked the distinction between destroying a unit in combat, where it could be purchased again at a fraction of it's full cost, as opposed to destruction after it had been surrounded. In the second case it became unavailable for a year and at that point could only be bought at it's full cost.

Another great feature was paying a price to have all of your affected units up-graded after a tech advance had been made.

The effects of the first Russian Winter was also very well done in COS.

-- All in all, it was a pretty good solitair game where the human player always needed to guard his cities against sudden and unexpected amphibious operations. Which was another good aspect of the naval zone system as opposed to moving naval units around hex to hex.

[Augustus]

Originally posted by Edwin P.:

In Blashy's AAR it stated that

"April 1940...UK Corps arrived from the around the cape, landing on Alexandria."

"All troops (allied) evacute Egypt, they leave one damaged cruiser next to the 2 arrows to block access to the Allies."

In the Event that the AXIS AI decides to launch an major offensive against Egypt:

a. Will the AI (ALLIED) sometimes consider evacuating Egypt if the cause is hopeless?

b. Will the AI sometimes follow Blashy's strategy and leave a damaged (Axis) cruiser in the Red Sea to block acces to the Allies.

c. After conquering Egypt will the AI know to return units to Europe to assist in the fight there?

d. Will the Allied AI sometimes send (as per the AAR) reinforcements to Egypt?

e. Will the AI foolishly launch a Middle East Campaign if the Italian navy is decimated and the Allied Fleets control the Mediterrean?

[Augustus]

Hi all:

It would be nice to see Allied AI keep an interest in Egypt after Axis control.

Cheers...

Augustus