Violating neutral airspace

[arado234]

Should there not be consequences for violating neutral airspace.I know countries did it but possibly raising the diplo.of the country in question.I know in some games(third reich for one)you have to declare war on the country you want to fly over.

[JerseyJohn]

During WWII Germany complained to the Swiss that, whenever their planes strayed they were promptly confronted by German made ME-109 fighters. But the Swiss seemed more tolerant of American bombers skirting their borders.

On at least one occasion, when the United States was angered by Swiss activities such as diverting electricity to Germany, U. S. bombers would accidently drop too close to the border and a lot would stray across into Switzerland. Next day there would be an apology. The Swiss always got the hint.

[arado234]

I agree with you on that JerseyJohn,but i was reading terifs battle he is having with jollyguy and jollyguy launched a full scale attack over swedish airspace(with paratroopers)to drop into finland.I doubt sweden would have allowed something like,especially with german troops near by.

[Retributar]

Im no Rocket-Scientist when it come's to creating Script's for this kind of thing, but!...really!,...i think that it should be 'No-Big-Deal' to create Scripting for this particular situation or many other situation's.

Im all for Scripting to Mimic the Swiss Situation in WW2!, let's try to have whatever reality that we can have in these game's,...the more-the-better!.

[Guest Mike]

Luftwaffe aircraft were flying over the USSR for months prior to Barbarossa - they obtained heaps of info on airfields, bridges, etc that reallly helped the Germans in the first few weeks.

See here

[JerseyJohn]

arado234

This topic came up three or four years ago in the SC-1 Forum, and some interesting things came to light.

In the spring of 1940, for example, Switzerland (edited - should read Sweden -- thanks xwormwood for pointing it out ) allowed German troops near Narvik to be supplied through their country when they were totally cut off on the Norwegian side. Also, some trains were allowed to move through Swedish territory that were known to have been carrying reinforcements for that otherwise doomed command.

I agree that, in game terms, there should certainly be a reaction from overflights and territorial violations of neutral territory, if for nothing else than because on this scale such violations would be impossible to ignore. But the truth is, nations generally go with the flow; if the violation is by a neighbor who can just as easily conquer the country, it's not generally made a huge issue of.

-- Similarly, a couple of days before the German invasion of Poland, some German infantry strayed across the border and began firing a bit early. Some were killed in battle, along with Poles, and the rest withdrew till it was time to make the jump off with the rest of the armies. It isn't surprising that Poland didn't declare war over this, but I do find it surprising that the story wasn't made a big issue prior to Sept 1st -- it was reported in Britain, the U. S. and France as minor violence along the German-Polish border.

Anyway, getting back to the point here, I'd favor an adjustment that prevents such actions.

Jolly-Guy's move should be illegal, and impossible for the game to execute. And to do such a thing against Terif is clearly a sacrilege! :eek:

Stalin's Organist,

True, and an interesting point. Stalin's air generals practically pleaded with him to allow them to at least warn and escort the spy planes back to the border, if not shoot them down outright, but he wouldn't allow any action he felt would be provocative to the Germans.

I don't know if there's any way in game terms to duplicate the one sided arrangement between Germany and the USSR prior to Barbarossa.

[ March 20, 2007, 07:38 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[arado234]

JerseyJohn,Would it not be possible to have a countries war readiness to go up against the violating country.Yes i know about most of those violations but like you said the country doing the violating was a "friendly"neutral and that i could see.Or the country being violated was afarid to act because they would be wiped out.The game is set now that if russian ships violate finnish or swedish waters those two countries could join germany right away.Same with america sailing to close to spain while neutral.Why not aircraft?

[JerseyJohn]

I agree Arado.

On this scale I think the country would be forced to join the other side -- imagine an entire air fleet violating a country's territory. I'm sure they'd be shot at and, if possible, intercepted, either of which would almost certainly lead to a war.

[jon_j_rambo]

Yodl invented the move

[Jollyguy]

Yes, the first time I saw Swedish airspace used by the Allies was by Terif. What he does is station his British bomber in Oslo, tasked to disable Helsinki's port. Then he moves his Russian units into Finland from the northern hexes. Unless the Axis have anticipated a Finnish invasion this usually results in Finland surrendering in three turns, as it would take one turn to embark amphibs from Konigsberg (assuming you have a HQ and combat units there), and then with only a 4 hex range they take two turns to arrive. Even if the Russians have not also amphib'ed from Leningrad, Finland is usually done before the Axis can reinforce. My variation on what Terif does was the long range air and paratroops.

One thing I didn't mention is that if Russia DOW's Finland they can land their paratroops...but not attack in the same turn! I am glad I tested the strategy ahead of time, because I didn't expect that. Plus, I got lucky that Finland joined on its own AND that the weather cooperated, as my strategy was not a sure thing, which is why I also had a large Northern invasion force ready too, so I could overwhelm any attempt to rescue the Finns. And, I also had my bomber deployed to the west of Oslo same as Terif does, which would have taken out Helsinki's port in case I got bad die rolls for the airborne attack.

Now, before people start talking about additional scripts, keep in mind this is a game that still reveals new variations and still has more to reveal provided players analyze each units unique characteristics and lay of the map. Perhaps a script is called for, but perhaps not. But how about a limitation on operating four rockets to the boot on Italy to take out Malta? Or even having rockets at level 3 by 1941? In reality those rockets needed an immense infrastructure and permenant skids or cement pads to launch. Is it realistic to transport the entire weapon system in two weeks over 1500 miles? But the balancing aspect of the game is that the mpp pie can only be sliced so many ways. Four rockets is eight corps or 5 armies. The research needed to get them to level 3, probably 5 chits, is an HQ and another army. Any good opponent will figure this out and realize the Axis must be weak in the ranks in other areas, and react accordingly. Terif did this in Scandanavia when he DOW'ed Sweden, as he knew the mpps needed by me to get to LR air 4 (seven new chits btw to go with the one you get), plus the cost to reinforce my planes, plus the cost of an English paratroop, plus the cost of upgrading my carriers, had to drain the Royal Treasury.

The only house rule Terif and I play with is that the US can ONLY patrol the upper Atlantic convoy routes before they join. This is too disallow a US cruiser from posting itself in front of the Gibralter port and totally blocking egress into the Atlantic by Axis (naval) units once Gibralter falls. Other than that it's wide open. IMO the more house rules you play with, the staler gameplay becomes. The really interesting games are when you get dualing, creative strategies. If one side is caught flatfooted facing a new strategy they may lose unless they adapt really, really fast. Terif is the master of adapdation which is why he wins so much.

Bob

[xwormwood]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

arado234

In the spring of 1940, for example, Switzerland allowed German troops near Narvik to be supplied through their country when they were totally cut off on the Norwegian side.

Aircraft Interned in Switzerland during WW2

Some more infos

some more

and more

and moremore

[ March 20, 2007, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: xwormwood ]

[JerseyJohn]

Oh, the old Switzerland for Sweden mixup. Those Swiss sure get around!

[xwormwood]

Yes, chocolate and cheese will surely do the trick.

I think neutral airspace should be closed.

I could live with exceptions depending on the diplomacy level (allowed if nation favours your side by 20 / 30 / 40 ... %).

[JerseyJohn]

Interesting More and More and MoreMore articles and photos, xwormwood. The novel Catch-22 has a character who is a bomber pilot at an American base in Italy whose objective is to fly to Switzerland and sit out the rest of the war.

This infor is particularly useful to me as something I'm working on involves the months immediately following the war in Europe and various people passing from Germany and Northern Italy into Switzerland both before and after the German surrender. Thanks for posting it.

Anyway, regarding this topic, I think it's idea is to stop the possibility of airwings crossing neutral air space, carrying out a mission, recrossing it and returning to base, along with paradrops being made that couldn't otherwise have happened if neutral borders weren't violated. Both of which are valid points and I hope Hubert will fix these issues.

[Retributar]

Jollyguy

By the way, 'Excellent Analysis' ...if no-one else mentioned it!. You had me flying there for a while!, i was absorbed and intrigued by your Studious Breakdown of Action/Reaction/&Implementation. Tremendous work there!... W0W!.

[arado234]

Jollyguy i agree with what your saying and like what you did but like i said before maybe there should be some consiquences for doing what you did.Like raising the war readiness of the country in question if that country is an enemy neutral.What do you think.

[jon_j_rambo]

There's no such thing as neutral.

"You are either with us or against us" --- President of the United States, George W. Bush

[jon_j_rambo]

Speaking of air space, I'll never forget when President of the United States Ronald Reagan took the air force around France in order to pop Libya. LEGENDARY!!!

[Jollyguy]

Arado;

I like the bomber in Oslo tactic, and history is full of instances where neutral countries saw their territory violated. It is true though that there was usually a diplomatic cost to pay for doing so. So, if the US can get all uppity just from a few Italian ships moving in the Med, or Franco from the US moving its navy, or the Finns from the Russian navy, etc., then yes, in theory, I guess there should be a script.

Not sure how much effect it would have though. Sweden generally becomes a battleground sooner-or-later, and their response would just be a complaint. So a script might be more style than substance. But then again it could effect some games, i.e., if the Allies were diplo'ing Sweden rather than invading it.

Bob

[SeaMonkey]

Violation of airspace has always been a frequent occurrence since the invention of flight, whether intentional or not.

Mistakes happen.......on purpose sometimes, evreyone understands, its not a war catalyst, but it should have some repercussions, but not in SC.

Think about it, you station AFs and Bombers next to an unbelligerent and peek into their territory. Just how do you think that info is revealed?

Then you station a bunch of combat troops on the border in a clear act of presumed aggression. Come on...get out of here, those actions don't serve to cause alarm?

Its appropriate, but a little to complicated for our SC to simulate, the world is complicated enough, let's keep this game where its at for that parameter, its fun, subtly engrossing, balanced, and finishable.

Ever think about how many games you truly complete, sans surrenders.

[arado234]

SeaMonkey we wouldnt be doing anything new.Already if anyone attacks spains vichy allies it has a big effect,not just on spain but also romania and hungry.If russian ships in the baltic move to far, finland and sweden get upset.If germany starts massing to many troops or doesnt have enough troops on the russian borber russia gets upset.If germany attacks greece or yugoslavia russia gets upset.Im just saying make it that if you choose to fly over an enemy neutral their war readiness goes up.