Battle for Atlantic in SC2

[Edwin P.]

In Sc1 the Axis could win without battling for control of the Atlantic.

What do the playtesters see as the relative importance for the Axis of the Battle for the Atlantic?

[jon_j_rambo]

In the real war, the USA won (quicker) by dropping a couple of Big Fatties on Japan & firebombing Dresden (w/ UK), is that going to be in SC-2? Is the USA going to actually given a Air Force, Army, Navy, & some dough? How can the USA fight in the Atlantic with 2 ship pieces & 185 MMPs per turn?

I wish there were others that had the same passion for the United States historical correctness as they do for German, but I guess we know the reason.

[Edwin P.]

Originally posted by Blashy:

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

How about the United States? What are their starting pieces, production, & possibilities?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

USA does not start off with anything big, 1 corps and 2 armies.

With that said, by the time USA joins the war you can easily have 2 HQs & 8+ Armies.

I had 2 HQs & 8 Armies at level 3 infantry weapons and level 2-3 motorization the turn before USA joined the Allies.

I also had level 5 Industrial Tech.

2 Battleships and 1 cruiser which are in the production queue by default.

Originally posted by pzgndr:

-------------------------------------------------------

RE: IT Research growth rates for USA and USSR. How do they differ from the standard 5% in SC1?

-----------------------------------------------------

The standard in SC2 is now 10%, but there's a lot of increased tech costs now to worry about. USA gets 20%.

JJR- What more do you want? The A-Bomb? :eek:

[ January 08, 2006, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[jon_j_rambo]

"We'll just see about that" --- Robert Duval as E.F., in the Hollywood movie, The Apostle.

[JerseyJohn]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

I wish there were others that had the same passion for the United States historical correctness as they do for German, but I guess we know the reason.

We're obviously holdovers from the German-American Bund.

[jon_j_rambo]

Now, I do believe that!

[Kuniworth]

Now lets all just calm down here

[JerseyJohn]

Thanks Kuni. I'm always calm, except for when I'm psychotic.

Brother Rambo.

Yes, New Jersey had more American Nazis than most other places, and also one of it's Hitler Youth style summer camps, called Camp Nordland. Long Island had an even larger camp called, Camp Sigfried. It also had even more nazis than New Jersey. When the locals complained about Camp Siegfried in 1939 the nazis got them to stop by threatening to sell the place to a "Negro Group." Well, that was The United States during the Depression Era. There were also German American Bundists living in Idaho.

Right up to the Second World War the state department and FBI considered the communists to be the greater menace to the United States and didn't apply much pressure on the nazis. When they finally did, there was a near union of the most fanatical with the KKK, which had also been driven underground at the time, after decades of existing out in the open.

A book I really like on this subject is:

Another fine book is an alternate history novel by Phillip Roth (Portnoy's Complaint fame) called, The Plot Against America. It goes with the premise that Charles Lindbergh was nominated by the Republicans in 1939 and defeated FDR in 1940. Once in office, he showed himself to be a near blatant nazi. Roth's book is about a Jewish boy living in Newark (himself, actually) during those four years. He takes great pains to explain that neither the boy nor anyone he knew wore a Yarmulkuh nor spoke with a Jewish accent, yet they immediately became the target of every deadbeat and thug in the city.

Another fine book was written in the late 1960s by James V. Compton, The Swaztika and the Eagle. It's pure history and details Hitler's personal misconceptions about the United States from his youth to the time of his declaration of war right after Pearl Harbor.

By the way, Hitler openly denied that there were any ties between the American Bund and the Third Reich. He wanted the United States neutral and was wary of stirring up tensions through open demonstrations.

When the Bund Leader Fritz Kuhn showed up in Germany during the Olympics, Hitler played down the relationship and treated him as though he were any other American tourist. Kuhn returned assuring his followers that Hitler had named him the "American Fuhrer."

This is a very interesting subject. It's a shame that knowing about such things means being dubbed a nazi. By the same logic Jonas Salk must have been a polio baccili.

[Kuniworth]

Now lets all calm down in here.

[JerseyJohn]

Thank you, Kuni, is this calm enough?

[Kuniworth]

Yes that's fine.

Now I can tell you something I've been keepin from you all those years;

Hubert is actually your father

[JerseyJohn]

But, but -- I'm older than he is!

[Kuniworth]

Nope, Hubert is actually a 94-year old ukrainian cossack living in Toronto.

[JerseyJohn]

Kuni, with a single sentence you've unravelled the mystery of my origins. You've explained the meaning of that mysterious photograph they found in the basket with me when as an infant I was caught in a net while floating down the Hudson.

I'd always assumed I was Moses!

The man in the photograph, he must be, has to be ...

[Edwin P.]

Originally posted by Edwin P.:

In Sc1 the Axis could win without battling for control of the Atlantic.

What do the playtesters see as the relative importance for the Axis of the Battle for the Atlantic?

[ January 08, 2006, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[jon_j_rambo]

@Sir Jersey --- Yes, a quick drive to Northern Idaho will find many, many, hate groups, rather sickening. Idaho is too great for hate. How's Camden, New Jersey? It was voted the most dangerous city in the USA, followed by Detroit, Michigan.

[JerseyJohn]

Edwin,

My apologies in sidetracking all over your potentially excellent thread. It's unfortunate the game testers aren't responding to the question; they ought to be. -- Also, I don't think their lack of response is due to the off topic posts by myself, Kuni and rambo, I have no idea what it is; perhaps they just haven't got the information.

Brother Rambo,

As you know by now I'm not a great fan of life in New Jersey. I get angry when I read dumb remarks about how it smells because it doesn't! There's a narrow strip of northernmost Jersey directly opposite New York City that has oil and gas works and, yes, that area stinks like hell. Unfortunately the Jersey Turnpike runs right through it and then some interstates exit into Pennsylvania, so for a lot of people that's the only part of the state they ever see. I can always tell when that's the case because of those uniformed remarks. 99% of the rest of the state lives up to it's name as The Garden State.

Politically the place is very corrupt. There's a lot of organized time and nepotism. Taxes are way too high etc & etc. The best parts of the place are strictly for the very wealthy and most of them have a summer home here, including Bill Gates and numerous politicians and actors. But the high prices make it less appealing for the rest of us.

Crime? We don't have any in the neighborhood I live in. It's not rich and the town next to ours is one of the worst. We've got a lot of ethnic groups living on the surrounding streets and a lot of kis and teenagers, but my car's been parked on the street beside the house every night for ten years now and it's never had a single case of anyone damaging it. Nor do they do anything malicious with the houses or schools, etc, so I'm personally pleased with that situation. I have no idea why, as a group, they're so well behaved. It certainly isn't because of a police presence as we rarely see a patrol car except for when someone calls an ambulance.

Camden, Newark and some other New Jersey cities have bad reputations, but I don't take them seriously. I've seen the absolute worst parts of New York City; the city itself has much more people than the entire state of New Jersey, and many times more crime. The thing is, a murder in Camden looks worse statistically than a murder in New York City, where it hardly shows up at all.

Idaho, naturally, is no different from the other 47 contiginous states in regard to having loonies and malcontents. They'll always be a part of society in every state and every country. Thanks for the tip, now if I ever visit the place (as I'd like to some day) I'll avoid the Northern part.

One thing I've got to say about this part of New Jersey, we've got a lot of nazis even now. Most of them don't have a brown uniform in the closet (though some of them do) but from the way they talk you know right away that if Hitler showed up in the White House they'd be the first to find a brown shirt and an armband so they could get into the spirit of things while breaking the windows of a Jewish neighbor's house. Not that the Jews are the local target these days, they've been replaced by Moslems, Indians/Pakistanis and Mexicans, usually in that order.

In part I sympathize with them but only in the thing I've always complained about, that the government has been allowing way, way too many people into the country for the past thirty years even while American based jobs have been vanishing for foreign locations. They've destroyed the blue collar and lower white collar work force and a lot of people are turning their anger on the immigrants. Really, it should be directed against our corrupt politicians.

[Desert Dave]

What do the playtesters see as the relative importance for the Axis of the Battle for the Atlantic?

EP,

It's kinda hard to tell just yet.

So far we've only been playing hot-seat games, but the TCP has NOW been implemented and so, we are only just beginning to play some of those sorts of games. :cool:

Certainly, the framework has been established which WILL allow a better, more historical approach to that VERY critical contest between GErmany's U-boots and the Allied sub-hunters.

For instance (... and much of this everyone already knows, so consider this a review, mostly):

1) Ocean is much larger... this alone makes for a more realistic contest.

2) Spotting by all units, sea and air, is less; therefore, better chance of sub secrecy, and survival. Recall also that you can "run silent" so you'll be able to disguise your intentions.

3) Subs cost less and have a higher dive percentage, per improvement (... which can be countered, equally, by research gains in ASW).

4) All convoys are appropriately valued. Especially valuable are the USA->UK, and UK->USSR routes. These "Lend Lease and Arctic (Murmansk)" convoys can indeed be quite a high profile target. And since the max MPP transfer allowed depends on the size of each Nation's economy, the value might increase as the game progesses. The Allies can "risk" as much as they choose, at any given season.

5) Storms at sea are especially bothersome to the larger sized vessels, and might prevent merely "flooding of the zones." The longer you remain in foul weather conditions, the more likely you are to suffer some damage (... as well as reduced supply and readiness). Thus, you probably shouldn't simply establish picket lines and simply sit around waiting for a sub to run into you.

Give us a week or two and we'll let you know how this aspect of the game works out in head to head competition, which is the truest test yet, yes?

_____________________

Have not ANY doubt, though... once the results of testing can be reviewed, Hubert will make the necessary adjustments so to INSURE that "The Battle of the Atlantic" WILL be an important aspect of the over-all GS game.

[ January 09, 2006, 05:08 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[Desert Dave]

In the real war, the USA won (quicker) by dropping a couple of Big Fatties on Japan & firebombing Dresden (w/ UK), is that going to be in SC-2?

jjr,

About every 2 or 3 months you re-visit this "bomb 'em into Stone Ages" non sense.

Hmmmm... something it must be inside of YOU that builds and builds until it boils over.

Do you really suppose that incinerating innocent civilians is a good, and honorable way to win any war?

Hell, some sub-humans in caves (... already there, or soon enough to take refuge therein) may one day mimic this wonderful tactic, eh?

[hellraiser]

@Sir Jersey

"In part I sympathize with them but only in the thing I've always complained about..."

Note that the subject in your previous phrase was the nazis You gotta be veeery specific about things these days as you don't want the famous words twister (you know him...oh you know him ) to start writing an essay about your "love" for the nazis

j/k

[jon_j_rambo]

@DesertDave --- Personally, I could careless about wars. "It wasn't my war, you asked me, I didn't ask you.". The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but spirtual. If the Germans were smart, they would have surrenedered to the Western Allies in 1944.

@Sir Jersey --- Thanks for the update on New Jersey. All I know about it is Bruce Springsteen, the Sopranos, & Atlantic City. You live in a very heavily populated area!

[Desert Dave]

@DesertDave --- Personally, I could careless about wars. "It wasn't my war, you asked me, I didn't ask you.". The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but spirtual.

I am personally convinced, after all these years that you and I have discussed somewhat different world views... that you, and Jimmy Swaggert, and Jerry Lee and some of them others who were actual and TRUE music poets... KNOW this to be true. :cool:

If the Germans were smart, they would have surrenedered to the Western Allies in 1944.

Would have, fer sure!

Whenever I played Third Reich the board-game, I often finagled it where I obtained that "Hitler Assassinated" variant event.

'Course, then my troops were frozen for a turn, but, hell, Sunshine always returns and thaws them out after awhile.

Though, the sun will be cinder one of these fine Spring mornings... ah, that's for another day!

OK, with Manstein, or Raeder in charge, sanity might have prevailed?

I'd guess... yep, it would have; however, by then the Allies were so "caught up in the vengeance maelstrom" they might not have even listened? :eek:

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Only thing I want to know for the Battle of the

Atlantic right now is the cost/benefit side of the

equation. IOW does it make sense from that stand-

point to put a lot of MPPs into subs, or am I still

going to be wasting my money (all other things being

equal) like I did in SC1?

[Desert Dave]

Only thing I want to know for the Battle of the

Atlantic right now is the cost/benefit side of the

equation. IOW does it make sense from that stand-

point to put a lot of MPPs into subs, or am I still

going to be wasting my money (all other things being

equal) like I did in SC1?

Forget the chaff - you want whole wheat!

Eh, JdF2!

As I said, you simply cannot guage such things

Playing only hot-seat.

Since you CANNOT replicate the "cat & mouse"

Convoy game when 1/2 of you - the cat,

KNOWS what the other half - the mouse,

Is already thinking of doing!

**As this IS one of my two favorite theatres,

Along with North Afrika,

I sure will let you know how the TCP games go.

Cost-benefit ratio wise, I mean.

[Kuniworth]

Speaking of the atlantic...

in playtesting a huge back-breaker to the U-boats should be the allied airplanes, as you all know those sunk the most u-boats of all allied sub-hunters.

Will those airfleets and carriers be able to effectively hunt subs as were done historically?