Victory, Defeat, Armistice, Taxes, Depression

[targul]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Give unto Caesar what is Caesars. Question is, how much should Caesar get? Taxes are a joke. My property taxes just got popped anothg $2k year.

Your taxes are pretty low I see. I 1995 after paying over 3M in taxes the IRS decided they didnt have enough and DEMANDED and additional 1.1M. The state wanted another 300K for there share after the IRS demanded this.

I retired immediately upon notice that they wanted more. I had been gouged enough and was paying no more. To date I have not worked again nor have I been required to pay taxes since I removed all my funds from income producing.

Did I lose a hell of alot certainly but as I said I had been gouged enough and I will never allow it to happen to me again.

I am still required to pay land and sales taxes havent found away to avoid those. I had offers on some of the lands I own but cant sell them because I would have to give those bumms in Washington money again.

Luckily my children will not have to pay taxes on my assests since I have already taken action to place the funds and land in the trust to protect them.

Income tax is stupid. Working is bad and should be taxed. Dumb!!

I dont mind sales and use taxes but working taxes is just stupid and they will never steal another dollar from me for them.

[n0kn0k]

Both still lucky on that account, in the Netherlands we pay alot more

Our social system is alot more extensive compared to the US.

We have 19% tax on all goods, 6% on all essential stuff like food.

Income tax makes you cry for sure

< € 17.319 33,65% 5827,84

€ 17.319 t/m € 31.122 41,40% 5714,44

€ 31.122 t/m € 53.064 42,00% 9215,64

€ 53.064 < 52,00% 24406,72

So I'll take 100k income now.

You will pay 45164,64 in taxes

And then there's that 19% on everything you spend.

And property taxes at 1,2% on all of your assets.

I think only Sweden tops that by the look of their social system,

but things are about to change there now I believe.

[ July 06, 2007, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: n0kn0k ]

[SeaMonkey]

Ouch! Two horror stories. This is what happens when we delegate responsibilities to a central governing body out of touch with the local inhabitants.

Its either your money or your time and don't expect a just balance. You give a fortune to your supposed representatives to administer social programs, there is no doubt there will be wide spread corruption and monumental waste.

Want to help your fellow man...we all do, but you know as well as me there are certain people that will take advantage of bureaucratic programs(rich and poor). I work with some everyday, some are not even citizens and they raid the entitlement benefits like its their right.

What are YOU going to do about it?

Hah!! You don't have a clue...join the club, neither do I, its too big, too complicated, and you better be careful about turning someone in, the lawyers will pounce.

The people that are administering these programs are telling the people on them how to get around the qualifying criteria so they have more to administer to.

Get it....its job security. Tell me who's got it better than civil servants.

Hah, Flat tax...fair tax, yeah right....what are all those people that levy, collect, manage and run that whole complicated system going to do for a living after they lose their jobs.

Get on the welfare system????

[Guest Mike]

God wha a bunch of jerks - no taxes - no nothing.

You want to have the world's most powerful army - you pay taxes. You want gas guzzling cars and thousands of miles of freeways - you pay taxes.

Freeloading w@nker wanabees! :mad:

[jon_j_rambo]

The whole tax is just totally whacked. You pay property taxes for something you own & have to live in...it's based on the value, yet the cash is going to the school system? Then, you can tax deduct the property taxes off the Federal return? Thank goodness for Turbo Tax!

@Targul --- Way to position yourself.

@NoNooKie --- Wow, the Netherlands likes your dough too. That is higher than ours.

@StalinCommie --- Nah, I don't mind paying for roads & fighter planes. Just the waste. Maybe I should get a nice juicy government job, then I can come take your dough legally.

[SeaMonkey]

Sorry you're such an angry person SO, chill out. No one minds paying taxes for the improvement of the infrastructure and a secure environment to pursue happiness, whatever you definition is of that.

We don't mind paying for the consequences of our own decisions, bad or good, we just don't want to pay for others bad decision making, especially when we adise them differently.

Just like us, they should pay for their own mistakes. You have a problem with that?

No one is resorting to name calling here, we're just airing our own observations and perspectives, which you seem to be very astute at.

Remember no one is perfect, we all have our faults, and in the end we pay for those, one way or another.

What would be really nice is if we could all find that delicate balance to live by and not step on each others toes, which I'm sure is unintentional most of the time, we just don't hear that side of the story much.

Look how tough it was for Hubert to find the balance of SC, how many years did it take to get here? And still some won't ever buy into that premise and so we move on to WaW, some people will never be satisfied.

Should I say most?

That's why a lot of us here are infatuated with the past, we may have overlooked being a recipient of that balance on our way to the future.

Now I hope I haven't said anything unfair here, but being imperfect, possibly I did just tread on that ground....sorry.

But just to be sure...how about you go find a high cliff to jump off of....Bon Voyage

[Blashy]

I don't mind paying taxes, I just mind the way it is done.

It should taxes on purchases only (except for essential foods and clothing). You take your pay home 100%.

Taxing you anywhere else is undemocratic.

This way the people have the power, if they do not agree they can simply just buy clothing and food and basically boycott their governments.

[arado234]

Blashy whats the average house price in your area?In vanc.its $750,000.Luckly we bought our home 7 years ago.Now there is no way we could afford it.

[breezeri]

In Finland we also have extreme taxes, eg you earn about 24 000e (32 000$) in a year, you pay about 30-40% tax from it + EVERY single item you buy in a store is +22% tax. And at the moment gas is about 7$/US gallon :eek: And mandatory taxes per car are ATLEAST 1300$/year, not including full insurance. If you want full insurance for your car thats +1000-2000$. We also have the most expensive new cars in europe and that is why everyone drives a POS car in here. EG a 2006 Toyota Corolla 3door costs about 34 000$ in here, and thats a medium price :eek:

[SeaMonkey]

Blashy....damnit you're getting on my good side.

Exactly "right on", the more purchases of unnecessary items, the greater your tax liability.

The rich who can afford the more lavish lifestyle and purchases pay the greater proportion of taxes.

Its easy, you just incorporate the greater expense into your plan to purchase.

No bureaucracy to waste tax dollars on collection/returns, and all the other administrative duties.

We already have it, its the sales tax, just increase it and allow every man woman and child an allowance for the necessities.

You think you might be a little more discriminate about your purchases?

Nahh! Bad idea, too efficient, makes sense....stupid me!

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by SeaMonkey:

The rich who can afford the more lavish lifestyle and purchases pay the greater proportion of taxes.

And less than they do under a progressive income tax - it's easy to see why flat tax and sales tax only schemes are pushed by the well off.

I'm fairly well off for these parts - in the top single-figure % for income, and the inequity of these sickens me.

[targul]

My proceeding comments may have been a bit tough but I have been fighting the IRS over that extra money they wanted for 12 years. I just recently won and they decided I was correct. It cost me about 200K to make this fight. But do they return that nope. They dont even admit they were wrong just okay we release you from further liability for those years.

Time to party. Nope the state still wants the 300k that the IRS reported to them. It is crazy. They dont listen. They refuse to look at documents they just say we are right and you must pay. This battle will continue until they to know I will not be cheated simply for their incompetence.

Fair taxes I dont think anyone minds and when I paid them what was correct I did not complain but when they wanted more and refused to acknowledge poof they were wrong I got pissed.

Guess I should really thank them though since who knows when and if I would have retired without them forcing me to examine why I was working.

[Desert Dave]

I have been in the shabby-shiny

Mansions of the rich,

Noticed those supposed as

Grand and impressive? appointments,

Such as - the famous painters

Held close hostage on antiseptic walls?

So that no one else!

Might enjoy them.

I have spent time - too much time,

In their august company

(... had to, it was what was required

while working in the Family Business

for a decade - finally figured it, that

I couldn't stand it any

longer and quit that awful fawning and hit

the road)

And one thing I ALWAYS heard,

As a kind of rue resentful Mantra:

Complaints, fulminations about - paying taxes.

LOL!

They want somebody else's kids

To fight the Wars,

Defend their stash, their piles

Of accumulate interest & lucre.

They want somebody else to pick up

Their trash and - man O man,

Do they generate immense amounts of that!

They want - no, expect!

Clean water and clean air

And the very best kind of cutting

Edge hi-teched - health care, yeah,

Hear me now,

They send their children

To the finest Ivy

And status climbing kind of schools,

They imagine that their opinion, oh,

On - anything at'all,

Should count for more,

Should be heeded,

And,

They have the monies to purchase access

To those corrupted full and final, in Soul,

Who've bargained with Faust - and won,

They suppose,

Whoso can deliver them what they want.

Later it was,

Then I'd hiked and, a'times,

Rode the patch-work Indian bike

All across this - become blighted land,

From Loosiana Bayou

To Pacific Pallisades,

Crossing and re-crossing many times

My own home

Here near the Rio Grande,

And I got to know... the poor,

The freaks and the out-casts,

The shunned and made fun of

For fun, and

The drunks and addicts and what's

Impolitely termed - black & white trash,

And the discarded and disdained,

The ones lacking brawn

Or blessing of brains, and so,

I came to understand - at long last and,

Have held it close to heart ever since,

That the "rich" have - NEVER EVER

Uttered... one... single... thing,

Insightful, valuable or worth preserving,

That I can recite for you today.

Not - a one.

The "poor"... even then they were

Beat, broke, battered or lamed,

Did indeed reveal to me

Quite the contrary stuff,

That... I'll never forget.

Main thing - they had no fear.

Fear of somebody coming for their goods.

Fear of terrorists.

Fear of Big Brother.

Fear for the sake of fearing.

Fear of venturing forth,

As John Muir did over a hundred and some odd

Years ago - crossed the entire continent

Of wilderness America,

Just - the ruck-sack

Had bracings of hard-tack and tea.

The rich are hardly ever satisfied,

Something... something

They are, they realize too late,

It seems... is... missing.

They don't know what it IS, since

They cannot get outside

Of... themselves,

Long enough to see - quite, what.

They stand in front of their million dollar

Paintings,

And stare and stare... alas, nothing there.

Should be, but,

They don't know how to see,

Where to look,

What might excite, how easily

It can be said,

As a Child might - gee!

Ah well, it's

No use worrying over, and I don't.

Me?

I'll stand, finally, with... the least.

So long as they retain their dignity,

Their long and hard learned peace.

You can be poor and yet remain true

To anciently great... verities.

Like - honor, faith, hope oh yea,

It's an actual amazing grace

Hardly to be found in ANY Church,

Selah,

To discern, know... genuine freedom

From the useless rat-after-rat race

For... nothing,

Slyly disguised as... something.

LOL!

Taxes.

I read somewhere, once,

Some thing this really radical old

Road-going carpenter Cat had said:

"To those who've been given much,

Much is expected."

LOL!

Used to be true, in America.

Then the rich would BUILD things

For the common weal - libraries,

Schools, hospitals, industries

That lasted - a part of the community,

Not re-located off-shore

In a Carib Isle Bank.

Ain't no more gonna be as that, nope,

And likely, not never again.

The newest Rubicon hast been passed,

And,

Ain't no going back.

One way to know this - for sure?

The latest Mantra:

NO TAXES!

On ME!

If - you please! LOLOL!

You cunning cadging Cats - have fun!

Maybe?

You can build a Pyramid

And take it - ALL,

With you?

[ July 08, 2007, 05:27 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[JerseyJohn]

I'm sure your post is going to get stoned, DD, but I think it's great.

All we need to do is look at our neighbor to the south, with it's abundance of extremely rich -- no one knows how many billionaires.

Their national product?

Poverty.

Their chief export?

The destitute. -- two or three million a year, every year, no one bothers to keep track.

[SeaMonkey]

Wow! I guess justice and fairness is passe'. :eek:

We need different rules for different folks?

Look my AGI is less than 80 grand, far from economic wealth, but I am rich. Richness is in the eye of the beholder.......hmmm... that applies to other things as well.

Whatever my level of incompetence is, its not so bad that I can't recognize inequities.

So...anyone think that social security doesn't need to be fixed? Oh yeah its really fair, that's why all the public servants are exempt from it. :confused:

[jon_j_rambo]

What really gets my goat is the government has no check & balances. These dudes have cherry jobs, unlimited healthcare, retirement benefits, pensions, and their jobs can't be outsourced. I'm ready to push a broom, eat a donut, and take a nap on Uncle Sam's dime.

"Life's been good so far" --- The Eagles.

Money is overrated & the root of all evil. On the otherhand, one must have to buy stuff. Only God can measure the heart of what it loves. The Holy Spirit instructs us on right vs wrong in regards to matters that are gray too.

All blessings come from Above.

-Legend

[JerseyJohn]

I think being rewarded for achievement is essential; pure communism/socialism doesn't seem to work very well. But I don't think pure capitalism works well either.

Wealth, within reason, doesn't bother me. But I think tremendous wealth is very bad, the next step is always for the very wealthy to also become the very powerful.

There has to be a balance. Does anyone really need to be a billionaire?

When I lived in Manhattan I used to walk past the United Nations every day on my way to and from work (it was a hike from the East 70s down to Canal Street but I like walking). One thing that never showed up in photos of the place was the dozens or people in cardboard boxes right across the street from that shiny glass and steel building. And wealth all around the wretches living inside them.

I remember reading that Venice, back in the city state days, had no poverty and no beggars because the ruling council and citizenry felt it was impossible to allow the wealthiest city in Europe to allow such things to exist. The United States seems to have chosen a different path, that the super wealthy should be allowed to grab every cent in sight without looking back. Historically that's never worked; we should know better, but apparently we don't.

[jon_j_rambo]

There's something in the human heart that wants to gain. No matter how much you have, there's always a little more...whether it be cash, glory, food, clohes, homes...

What would it profit a man to gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by targul:

Fair taxes I dont think anyone minds and when I paid them what was correct I did not complain but when they wanted more and refused to acknowledge poof they were wrong I got pissed.

Fair enough - THAT I can agree on - we have had similar cases here, and as a civil Servant (but not in hte IRD!!) I agree that overbearing officiousness is worth complaining about - a lot of civil servants seem to forget the words that the title is made up of......

[jon_j_rambo]

You know what's great? It doesn't matter what anybody's opinion is. All that matters is the written word. Kind of like the Constitution. That's why it is a written document, so it's clear to all.

[Guest Mike]

Yep - it's so clear that there are never arguments about interpreting it, and it never needs amendments!

Oh....hang on......

[SeaMonkey]

I'm getting a feeling of universal agreement here.

We are all right...JJR.."We are blessed" amen, I here that. We all want succeeding generations to do better than us. It supports our wishes that we helped to contribute to an advancement of the human condition.

JJ...how much is enough? You are right on, to much incites excessiveness.

SO...so clear...about responsible people losing their sight of simple applications upholding the spirit of the regulation.

If we could all be a little more accomodating, eager to remedy, and be a bit more tolerant of our fellow man's indiscretions, well.....

Fricken forget it :mad:

I just went to the store, while walking through the parking lot, first I see a dilapidated(assuming a poor person) vehicle parked in the Handicap space and a perfectly functioning human being get it in and drive away.

Then I'm in line and a woman with foodstamps checks out while talking on her cell phone.

Back out in the parking lot another vehicle in decline, a van, full of people idling away with the AC on.

So....I'm trying very hard here to be tolerant.

Making rationalizations somehow just doesn't get it when this reoccurs day in and day out. :confused:

[JerseyJohn]

Know the feeling, SeaMonkey.

I don't know what the answers are, don't know what form of government serves all of it's people without also being stifling and restrictive.

It would be great if human nature were inclined for each human to look out for all of humankind, but it's never seemed to work that way.

A few years back Kuniworth wrote an interesting piece at a defunct website regarding social democracy. When I told people I knew some of the ideas they said it was the sort of thing that would work in a place like Sweden but wouldn't work in the United States. Maybe so, but I'm not convinced.

In any case I think in the next decade or so a lot of sweeping changes in the United States will have to be made. Can't see how a country can have 12-20 million people living illegally in it and something 45 million of its registered citizens having no health care at all. Unemployment figures are a joke because anyone who's fallen out of the system isn't counted, add them in and the unemployment % will suddenly be three or four times higher.

-- All that reading earlier about the I. R. S. reminded me of the 1974 when I took a seasonal job as a tax examiner. The Internal Revenue, from what I saw, was a nice organization to work in but I never felt comfortable dealing with other people's financial records and was glad when they laid us all off and didn't go back the following year. My supervisor stormed up to me one night with a file in her hand that I'd passed through despite it having some suspicious deductions. She waved it in front of me, "Who do you think you are, Robin Hood? You see something like this circle the cheat items in red and send it to my desk." :eek:

It would be great to have the tempations of great wealth; I'd like to see if I give in to blind greed.

-- Saw an interesting documentary on the Czars with a section that goes directly into all of this. Czar Alexander III, probably the wealthiest man on earth with several palaces containing hundreds of rooms each, lived with his family in Spartan conditions, small and not very comfortable basement rooms because they could be easily protected there. His father was about to enact sweeping reforms when he was assassinated and the son immediately went as far as possible in the opposite direction. I wonder if he ever made the connection that his incredible wealth made him a very poor man.

[SeaMonkey]

I'd be willing to trust my future to your temptation of blind greed JJ.

Somehow I feel that you'd be up to the task.....no, I know you'd be.

Actually I wasn't really upset about those turn of events at the grocery store today, its just an example of catalyst that breeds the doubt of any centralized management of entitlement programs.

Any wonder why we question the credibility of anything administered by our government, especially things that directly impact our everyday lives like taxes.

The small things, the details usually give insight to the broader spectrum, now see why I have misgivings about Social Security.

I remember my unbridled quest for economic independence and the sacrifices I was willing to make a long the way. Once attained, the set backs, the beatings I endurred seem to silently slip away from my memory as I found I really didn't need that much for "happiness".

Then just as those memories faded I found myself giving, a little at first escalating to more as time passed.

Funny thing happened on the way of getting out of debt, I found a greater liability to my fellow man......this kind of investment pays a whole lot greater dividend than the economic one.

[jon_j_rambo]

@SeaMonky --- Nice post dude. That crap is rampant. There are days I feel like I'm the only one working.

1) Insurance frauds. My old neighbor was on disability for a bad back, but was able to build his own cement pool & large fence with no problems. Insurance fraud is SICKENING in the USA.

2) Food stampers driving SUVs, smoking, cell phones, living large, typcial.

3) Bums fighting over street corners because they can make $60k/year from the good ones. (Tax free), I'm sure they aren't reporting that jack.

4) Women who divorce their husbands, keep the child support & don't even use it on their kids, while shacking up with a new b/f who pays their crap.

5) All these people who say they are depressed, and the government gives them pills & a free check.

This whole "I won't work crap" start back in 1964 with the LBJ. Worst thing this country every did. We justify, support, and promote stealing & laziness. I'm not against helping the poor (see Bible) on that...rich man lifted his eyes from Hell. What I'm against is just giving jack to people. Instead, make food center where you can come & work, not just mail them money. If you can't work, then you can sit there for 8 hours a day like everybody else. You can count the holes in the ceiling before getting a free check.

For all you liberal Commies who prefer giving away the working man's jack...I'm sure you are on the government payroll or some method of legal laziness stealing.

I'd like to meet these bums & government workers at the ATM machine the day I get my paycheck and have them rip it out of my hand, instead of Social Stealers taking it.

and the whole congregation said, "AMEN",

-Legend