Hubert, we want a FALL WEISS with smaller map scale!

[Honch]

I know that I have harped on this before but from reading the recent posts about the exciting Patton Drives East expansion etc. I wanted to start a thread where players can post their agreement that a FALL WEISS map at about 25-30% reduction in scale (to more closely represent corps/division level) is something everyone would enjoy, especially the modders. I have been waiting anxiously in order to adapt my MOD to WAW.

Artillery, special forces, engineers and even tank groups would then be more appropriate for the game. Right now WAW is an army level game, only the Soviet units are realistically appropriate for the scale. Adding important cities and towns as well as countries would also be easier.

We all love the moddability of the game and the continuing commitment to expansion but I think this new scale map would bring ALOT of players and modders back.

[pzgndr]

Alright, and what might this smaller scale FALL WEISS with corps units have that my A3R mod for SC2-WaW doesn't already have now? Even so, the major comment I often hear is how much longer it takes to play and how much slower the AI is. More map plus more units means more to do. Division level scale for entire ETO would be worse.

I welcome players to try out my mod. Offer comments and suggestions for improvement. Take my mod and make your own adjustments, I don't care. I realize many players may prefer more research options; go for it. Anyways, it's out there right now for anyone interested.

I am currently updating A3R to SC2-PDE. The new decision events, global variables and improved AI are nice. So rather than start from scratch, what could be done with A3R to pump up the excitement level a notch or two??

[Marty Ward]

How do you install a mod?

[pzgndr]

Marty, there are a bunch of SC2 mods at cmmods.com. Log in, download a file, and unzip it into the \Campaigns directory. There should be a campaign.cgn file and _campaign sub-directory for each mod, just like you see for the default campaigns.

[Marty Ward]

Thanks.

Once it is unzipped in the right folder does it show up as a scenario in the new game menu?

[PowerGmbH]

Honch: how would you describe a reduction? Distance Paris-London or how? reduction similar to the scale of the European part of Global Map?

[Funks]

Originally posted by Honch:

I know that I have harped on this before but from reading the recent posts about the exciting Patton Drives East expansion etc. I wanted to start a thread where players can post their agreement that a FALL WEISS map at about 25-30% reduction in scale (to more closely represent corps/division level) is something everyone would enjoy, especially the modders. I have been waiting anxiously in order to adapt my MOD to WAW.

Artillery, special forces, engineers and even tank groups would then be more appropriate for the game. Right now WAW is an army level game, only the Soviet units are realistically appropriate for the scale. Adding important cities and towns as well as countries would also be easier.

We all love the moddability of the game and the continuing commitment to expansion but I think this new scale map would bring ALOT of players and modders back.

Me too.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by pzgndr:

Alright, and what might this smaller scale FALL WEISS with corps units have that my A3R mod for SC2-WaW doesn't already have now?

Unfortunately your scenario is not the right map-size for corps. You need to enlarge it approxamately 1.5 times to get it right.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

In particular it is distorted: elongated in the N-S direction, not so elongated in the E-W.

[pzgndr]

Well, I'd be curious to know what the right scale might be for a corps-level WWII ETO game. Third Reich had 60-mile hexes and quarterly turns. Totaler Krieg! had 60-mile hexes and 30-60 day turns. World in Flames (Europe) had 100km hexes and 60-day turns. Seems all three benchmark games had about 60-mile hexes with unit stacking allowed. With no stacking allowed in SC2, I chose to simply double the size of the Third Reich map and use 30-mile tiles.

Honch started this topic to get some discussion going. I'm not trying to hijack it, just get folks to clarify what exactly they want and understand some of the pros and cons involved. So what follows is more generic.

You can make any map you want, whatever scale. You want something 1.5 times bigger? Fine. What are you going to put on it?? It's one thing to take one of these benchmark games and adapt it to SC2 like I've done, but you need to keep things relative. Are you going to make the OOBs and economics 1.5x bigger too? Or are you going to start from scratch and disregard all the work that has gone on before? Again, you can do anything you want.

How about playability? I know there are lots of players who love monster games like War in the Pacific that take months and months to complete. But like I mentioned earlier, bigger maps and bigger OOBs mean longer and longer games. At what point does the game stop being fun to play??

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by pzgndr:

Well, I'd be curious to know what the right scale might be for a corps-level WWII ETO game.

You can make any map you want, whatever scale. You want something 1.5 times bigger? Fine. What are you going to put on it?? It's one thing to take one of these benchmark games and adapt it to SC2 like I've done, but you need to keep things relative. Are you going to make the OOBs and economics 1.5x bigger too? Or are you going to start from scratch and disregard all the work that has gone on before? Again, you can do anything you want.

Well it's quite easy, you use too few corps in your scenario according to the historical figures.. So map is too small to make a coherent frontline work.

You should look in my Battle for Russia scenario for a more realistic corps-sized scenario. Not saying it's perfect but it works well with the historical figures of ww2.

I think Normal Dude came really close with his Mediterranean experiment a while ago.

[PanzerMike]

Originally posted by Kuniworth:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by pzgndr:

Well, I'd be curious to know what the right scale might be for a corps-level WWII ETO game.

You can make any map you want, whatever scale. You want something 1.5 times bigger? Fine. What are you going to put on it?? It's one thing to take one of these benchmark games and adapt it to SC2 like I've done, but you need to keep things relative. Are you going to make the OOBs and economics 1.5x bigger too? Or are you going to start from scratch and disregard all the work that has gone on before? Again, you can do anything you want.

Well it's quite easy, you use too few corps in your scenario according to the historical figures.. So map is too small to make a coherent frontline work.

You should look in my Battle for Russia scenario for a more realistic corps-sized scenario. Not saying it's perfect but it works well with the historical figures of ww2.

I think Normal Dude came really close with his Mediterranean experiment a while ago. </font>

[Honch]

I think that PZGNDRs scale is perfect in his A3R mod (the AI scripting changes must have been a bear) but I would love to have it back in the SC2 "brand" with the original colors with all of the roads, terrain etc. Maybe he has this kicking around before he "re-branded" it to A3R?

Whether it is a true Corps level scale or not it doesn't matter. The point is that the current FALL WEISS scale is TOO BIG! Even a 25% reduction would be a great start. Something along the scale of Battle for Russia would be a dream.

Realistically, the editor allows for a maximum map size, why can we not have a FALL WEISS that uses more of that allotment?

As for actual tiles, Paris to London, I suggest would increase by 3-4 tiles.

And yes, my mod would use a histroical OOB at that scale and include adjustments to economics, movement and time scale. I wanna get started but don't want to do the work of re-creating the map (or even re-converting the A3R mod map) and definately not adjusting all of the scripts. Yikes!

[Kuniworth]

Yes I also like Bill's 3rd Reich Mod, just wanna clearify that I Battle for Russia and Normal Dude actually came closer to what a corps-sized game in WaW should be like.

[pzgndr]

and definately not adjusting all of the scripts. Yikes!

Uh, I did in fact have to do this for all the new global variables and decision event links in the SC2-PDE scripts. What a pain! But I'll say it was worth it. Y'all may want to wait until PDE gets released.

I would like to emphasize that the map scale and OOB I used are not exactly mine at all, just adapted from what John Prados developed back in the 1970s. He redid the game for Avalanche several years ago and kept the same scale but made some adjustments to the OOB. Nothing major. Prados is a sharp guy and his designer notes are excellent. I trust his judgement, which has been validated over many years of playing the game.

Honch, you and others are welcome to build upon what I have done with my A3R mod. I deliberately did not use roads, railroads and other terrain; these could be added by others. Some implementation of WiF or Totaler Krieg features could be considered too. I would even encourage hardcore modders to try making their own adaptation of these other games. Starting from scratch is a nobel thought, but it's tough enough just getting a known model to work.

[Honch]

Agreed on all points, thats why I think that a smaller scale map from Hubert would be an excellent addition to the already fantastic level of moddability of the game.

[Joe98]

Originally posted by Honch:

Artillery, special forces, engineers and even tank groups would then be more appropriate for the game.

The game is a grand strategy game. The Battle of the Bulge takes one square and one turn. The Market garden operation takes one square and one turn.

If you are interested in a different scale I would recommend Battles in Italy by SSG.

The game has engineers etc just as you request. And the game has many user made scenarios including a Fall Weiss.

-

[pzgndr]

The game is a grand strategy game.

Indeed it is. This doesn't preclude having some specialized units in the mix, such as artillery and special forces. Back in the SC1 days, some argued strenuously not to have paratroops at all, even though they did in fact perform several corps-level vertical insertion operations with strategic significance.

I'll offer some comments about my A3R. At first I did not include any of these specialized units. Later I tried them and assessed results. I didn't notice any problems, and in some respects things worked pretty well. Artillery, for example, with a strike range of 2 tiles being equal to about 60 miles is absurd on its face for WWII artillery, but represents some additional army group firepower that can be brought in for reducing fortifications and/or defensive fires. Special Forces operated in small teams and not at the division/corps scale, for sure, but allowing a couple of these weak (and expensive) units to perform coastal raids with ability to withdraw without a port presents a modest threat. In game terms, these units cannot significantly alter anything unless a defending player leaves himself wide open. IMHO, the grand strategy implications are acceptable.

I'll emphasize again, as I often have, that this game is an abstraction and cannot be thought of as a simulation. Folks that argue against an air unit being able to destroy a land unit, or a special forces unit being wrong for this scale, miss the point. Do not scrutinize in too much detail what happens in a single tile during a single turn by any one unit type against another. The no-stacking and sequential attack game mechanics defy comparison with traditional wargames. Step back and review the overall results of multiple units over multiple turns. Do the overall results make sense? Just a thought.

[Paul 'Papa' Hausser]

“Hubert, we want a FALL WEISS with smaller map scale!”

I fully agree with Hosch

“Unfortunately your scenario is not the right map-size for corps. You need to enlarge it approximately 1.5 times to get it right.”

I fully agree with Kuniworth

“In particular it is distorted: elongated in the N-S direction, not so elongated in the E-W.”

I fully agree with John DiFool the 2nd

“Yes, your Battle in Russia scenario truly is a gem. In fact, it is about the only scenario I have played extensively. The scale of Fall Weiss is not to my liking. So I agree with Honch, the scale should be changed to something like Battle in Russia.”

I fully agree with PanzerMike

A new addition with a lager/correct division level European map with more unit types is something I would pay a lot for.

The addition “Patton Drives East” as it’s described is unfortunately, even thou I love this game, nothing I would pay for at all.

/Papa

[PanzerMike]

Originally posted by Paul 'Papa' Hausser:

“Hubert, we want a FALL WEISS with smaller map scale!”

I fully agree with Hosch

“Unfortunately your scenario is not the right map-size for corps. You need to enlarge it approximately 1.5 times to get it right.”

I fully agree with Kuniworth

“In particular it is distorted: elongated in the N-S direction, not so elongated in the E-W.”

I fully agree with John DiFool the 2nd

“Yes, your Battle in Russia scenario truly is a gem. In fact, it is about the only scenario I have played extensively. The scale of Fall Weiss is not to my liking. So I agree with Honch, the scale should be changed to something like Battle in Russia.”

I fully agree with PanzerMike

A new addition with a lager/correct division level European map with more unit types is something I would pay a lot for.

The addition “Patton Drives East” as it’s described is unfortunately, even thou I love this game, nothing I would pay for at all.

/Papa

I fully agree with Hauser