Germany's Oil Production

[ev]

As off 1943 Germany was producing 8.9 million tons of oil. Oil production dropped sharply in 1944 as the allied bombing campaing stepped up.

A panzer division armed solely with Panzer III's and Panzer IV's would burn 23.7 tons of oil per 100 miles of advance.

A panzer division armed with the heavier Panther V and Tigers could burn up to 35.8 tons of oil per 100 miles.

Let us assume for argument's sake that a Level 2 or Level 3 Panzer Group in SC2 will represent:

3 Heavy Panzer Divisions Armed with Panther V's and Tigers,

3 Medium Panzer Divisions Armed with Panzer III's and IV's, and

3 Panzer Grendediar Divisions with no tanks.

We could reasonably guess that such a Panzer Group would burn 220 tons of fuel per 100 miles of advance.

Now, the real question, is how much this Panzer Group is going to move during an average week. It will have weeks where it will advance (or retreat) 300 miles. But it will have weeks in which it will sit and wait.

The largest advane made by any Armored Group during WWII during a single year, was that of Guderian's Panzer Group. It exceeded 1,000 miles - including the detour to meet with army group south. But that was quite exceptional. And, fortunately for Guderian, he did not have the heavy gas guzzlers of 1944.

Any way, if we assume an Armored Group will advance 1,000 miles per year, each Armored Group would consume some 22,000 tons per year.

Now, the problem with those numbers is that it does not take into account additional gas consumed during combat maneuvers. It also does not take into account repossitioning of units behind the lines, nor consumption of fuel while the unit is not advancing.

Off the top of my head, we can safely assume that an army size Armored Formation (9 divisions) would consume 8x22,000 = 176,000 tons of fuel per year. Since Germany produced 8.9 million tons of fuel in 1943, a Panzer Army would have consumed 1/500th of Germany's Oil Production.

It is important to note that through most of the war, German Oil production sufficed to sustain the needs of the Wermacht and the Luftwaffe. It was only after Allied bombings disrupted German Oil production, and, the Russians took the Ploesti Oil fields that Germany started to feel the pinch. And, even then, they were able to mount strong armored attacks like the Ardenness offensive in December 1944.

[ev]

Some data on the Luftwaffe:

Halfway through the war (June 1943) Germany had 4600 war planes.

I have no info on fuel consumption. My guess is that armored groups (including tanks and all supporting vehicles) burned a lot more fuel than planes.

[Roosevelt45(the 2nd)]

As I always understood it, it was only after the allies had learned of the German oil shortage that they started bombing their oil supplies.

Also,the major reason the Ardennes offensive failed was the fact that they run out of gas.

And a lot of the planes of the Luftwaffe were destroyed on the ground because they no longer had enough oil to use them in combat.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here ev, are you suggesting that Germany used a lot of oil or that the oil shortage should be somehow implemented in the game?

[Lars]

But the tanks were burning diesel and the planes were burning gas.

From American Petroleum Institute (API) statistics an average barrel (42 gallons) will produce 46% gasoline, 22% diesel, 10% jet fuel, 5.5% heavy fuel oil, and the remaining 16.5% would be everything else including lubricants, asphalt, petrochemical feedstocks, etc.

You need to go back and rework your figures. Keep in mind the refineries were set up a little differently back then (i.e. – not so much jet fuel).

[ev]

First, I am not suggesting that Germany was short of oil. On the contrary, my point is that absent allied bombing, Germany had enough oil.

Second, the German spearheads were short of oil only because supply convoys could not reach them. The 101's defense of Bastogne made it impossible for supply trucks to get through. Since trucks could not go cross country, they needed the roads. That's why Bastogne was so important. My tribute to the guys that defended Bastogne; they were given a truly important and difficult task.

The Germans faced in the Ardeness the same problems faced by Patton a few months earlier. And, there are plenty of examples on all sides during WWII where different armies had to stop their advance because logistics could not keep up. It happened to the Brits and Germans in North Africa. It happened to the Russ and to the Germans at different point in the eastern front. This is not to say that either of this nations could not support their armored formations due to lack of oil production at the home front.

A lot of German planes were destroyed in the ground because of lack of oil towards the end of the war. That shortage was the result of allied bombing and the Russians taking the Ploesti fields. Prior to that, Germany had enough oil to conduct the war. Also, bear in mind that most planes of WWII era needed special fuel. When allied bombers hit the refineries capable of making airplane fuel, they left the planes without fuel even if there was oil, and, fuel for the tanks.

Germany's true shortage was manpower. Germany's war against Russia failed, more than anything else because it did not have enough men for the job. At its peak, Germany had 3.3 million men in Russia in August 1941. That was the peak. At the same time the Russians had 5.3 million men in arms. That was the low for the Russians. Germany never recovered the losses of the 1941/42 winter. Russia had a steady increase of men in arms throughout the war. And, because the front was so vast, this differential in men made it impossible for Germany to hold the line. It was the exact opposite of the Termopliae. In a narrow fronts, quality was everything. But in the endless Russian front numbers overwhelmed quality.

[Roosevelt45(the 2nd)]

Germany was short on about everything at the end of the war.oil,men,steel,etc...

But my question actually was, why are you posting this here?

[Retributar]

Read the Topic...'Will Allied Strategic Bombing Have Any Effect On The Game?" > "The Attack on Oil" & "Further Dividends From the Oil Attack".

[ev]

Originally posted by Retributar:

Read the Topic...'Will Allied Strategic Bombing Have Any Effect On The Game?" > "The Attack on Oil" & "Further Dividends From the Oil Attack".

Thank you. Very good... Sorry I did not notice your topic earlier.

[ev]

Originally posted by Roosevelt45(the 2nd):

Germany was short on about everything at the end of the war.oil,men,steel,etc...

But my question actually was, why are you posting this here?

There are some scattered post in this site suggesting Germany could not field more armored units or air fleets because of lack of oil production. However, the record shows that oil shortages occured because Germany did not field enough planes to protect the German skies. Germany had the oil to field more planes - and more tanks.

I do not understand why the German high command did not push for the production of more planes prior to 1943...

[Retributar]

You hit the Nail on the HEAD ev !.

By September 1941 Hitler was so confident that he had succeeded in Russia that he ordered large scale cut-backs in war production...including research for Advanced Aircraft Projects. The thinking was that more war production or more research would not be needed...the war could be won with current assests and production lines

Later on...ME-262 production was delayed because of the failure of the Luftwaffe to recognize in time the advantages of the type. It was also delayed because Hitler intervened in 1944 with an ill-timed order to convert the ME-262 to a fighter-bomber. Virtually every manufacturer, production official, and air force general interrogated by the Survey, including Goering himself, claimed to have been appalled by this order. By May 1945, 1,400 jets had been produced. Had these planes been available six months earlier with good quality pilots, though they might not have altered the course of the war, they would have sharply increased the losses of the attacking forces...This would have prevented the collapse of the German war-industry and would allowed the war to continue on into 1945.

Without the proper type and enough numbers of aircraft to secure the skies...Germany was subject to Allied Strategic Bombing...which was also botched somewhat by the Allies. Had they mainly targeted the Oil & Electric Supplies/Power Plants...first and formost,...the factories, Panzer Divisions, and Luftwaffe would have been brought to a halt peacefully...the war would have been decided there and then!.

It was fortunate that the leaders of the German Air Force relied too heavily on their initial advantage. For this reason they failed to develop, in time, weapons, such as their jet-propelled planes, that might have substantially improved their position.

[ July 08, 2004, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

[Shaka of Carthage]

O my.

There are some scattered post in this site suggesting Germany could not field more armored units or air fleets because of lack of oil production. However, the record shows that oil shortages occured because Germany did not field enough planes to protect the German skies. Germany had the oil to field more planes - and more tanks.

You have drawn a false conclusion. Germany as a nation, never had enough oil production to meet its needs. Thats one of the reasons it pursued atomic research, not so much to find an atomic weapon, but as an alternative fuel source. Same reason it pursued synthetic oil production (from coal). A major component of the pre-Barborossa trade with Russia was for oil. There are numerous other examples of Germanies need for oil.

As a result, only a small fraction of the German military was motorized. I won't cite the numbers, but if you compare oil production and consumption before and after the loss of the Romanian oil fields, you can see what effect the loss had and why certain actions were taken to reduce the consumption of oil.

Supporting additional aircraft and armored fighting vehicles requires more than just producing them. The Luftwaffe had a problem in that it couldn't produce enough trained pilots to man the aircraft it did have. We'll leave aside the fact that the training hours for pilots was reduced significantly. There are alot more factors involved as to why the Luftwaffe never grew beyond a certain size, but the two major reasons are lack of oil (for training pilots) and trained pilots.

I do not understand why the German high command did not push for the production of more planes prior to 1943...

Short answer... because prior to '43, there were other pressing demands beyond military requirements. And a majority of the German High Command agreed that with the assets they had, they could defeat Russia.

Even with the snafu down in North Africa, the Balkans and the conflicting objectives between Hitler and military, they still almost pulled it off.

And then we wouldn't be having this discussion about the German oil shortage.

[Shaka of Carthage]

By September 1941 Hitler was so confident that he had succeeded in Russia that he ordered large scale cut-backs in war production...including research for Advanced Aircraft Projects. The thinking was that more war production or more research would not be needed...the war could be won with current assests and production lines.

It wasn't just Hitler who had this belief. The majority of the military leadership believed it as well. I think we all realize that in any large organization like a government or military, you will have dissenting opinions. We only have to look at the invasion of Iraq to get an example. There were quite a few people who predicted disaster because there were not enough "boots" on the ground.

Later on...ME-262 production was delayed because of the failure of the Luftwaffe to recognize in time the advantages of the type. It was also delayed because Hitler intervened in 1944 with an ill-timed order to convert the ME-262 to a fighter-bomber.

It would be more appropriate to say that the ME-262 didn't meet the requirements for combat on the Eastern Front, which was the only thing day in and day out that the Luftwaffe was asked to come up with a solution for. Thats why Hitler ordered it to be developed into a fighter-bomber.

Virtually every manufacturer, production official, and air force general interrogated by the Survey, including Goering himself, claimed to have been appalled by this order. By May 1945, 1,400 jets had been produced ... This would have prevented the collapse of the German war-industry and would allowed the war to continue on into 1945.

First, lets not forget human nature. You've just lost the war, your nation is in shambles and you thank god that you were captured by the Americans, not the Russians. The Americans are interviewing you about the war and the reasons why... guess whats going happen? It wasn't my fault, I was only doing what I was told. If they had listened to me, it wouldn't have turned this way. If you read the interviews, you'll see what I mean... especially when it comes to thier description of the Russian soldier.

Second, even if the Strategic Bombing had been delayed, I don't belive it would have made a difference. The Eastern Front had bleed German manpower. Who cares if there were more weapons? There were not enough warm bodies. There was nothing to stop Russia, which was the only concern in Berlin at the time.

[Retributar]

Well Shaka...those are interesting opinions...of yours!.

Obviously when your country is being pounded into the ground...why in the world would you build 'Fighter-Bombers'???(They would get shot down anyway...easier than Fighter-Jet's would have)...you have to have Sh*t for Brains to make a decision like that!.

Not only did the Allies have Air-Superiority over Europe...but the Russians had Air-Superiorty over on their end as well!.

That's why it would have made sense to build those jets and not do as Hitler's decision to make Jet-Fighter's into Fighter-Bombers.

Why wouldnt the ME-262's be relevant for fighting the Russians (Eastern Front)...that doesnt make any sense at all!. At that time the Eastern Front was on Germanys doorstep anyway!.

As far as not having enough fighter pilots,...again this is poor judgement and lack of reasonable foresight on the Germans part...they had plenty enough manpower to call upon to man a few thousand Jets!. Without Air-Superiority...it doesnt matter how many ground forces you have...unless you have them in major overwhelming numbers.

It wasn't just Hitler who had this belief. The majority of the military leadership believed it as well. I think we all realize that in any large organization like a government or military, you will have dissenting opinions.

Oh yes...he just started attacking Russia and he says well ... we don't need to produce large numbers of armaments anymore nor do we need to do major research anymore (Our Armies are just so Invincible)... What a Croc'...didn't this idiot realize that Britain and America and the supporting Allies were not just going to stand there with their Thumb's up there anal's and let Hitler have his way???. He like the Japanese knew of Americas tremendous Industrial power and its population size which was many times larger than Germany's...the Americans were no-where near to full-mobilization...they had plenty of capacity there!.

If that's what he thought and he did...that again was the problem with his leadership. Perhaps some of the Military Leadership felt that way too...but, there were plenty of others who did not agree with those policies either. Shortly after that decision...the Germans faced the T-34 , the Stormovic and other Russian weapons...then...Hitler saw the Guiding-Blinding-Light!.

First, lets not forget human nature. You've just lost the war, your nation is in shambles and you thank god that you were captured by the Americans, not the Russians.

Yes...most realized that they lost the war... they didn't have to wait until 1944 to realize that ...it was common knowledge amongst most people who understood the situation. What Hitler and most of the Generals were looking for was a settlement with the America and Britain (So that they could divert everything into attacking the Russians-in the hope of defeating them with more bodies)...so in that sense...they hadn't lost the war yet.

I still stay firmly with the evaluation that if the Strategic-War had been better implemented, German industry and the armed forces would have reached a point of immobility sooner than it actually would have(which was already being expressed as Germany was invaded)...as already explained in detail in the ' Will Allied Strategic Bombing Have Any Effect On The Game? . This situation would have forced the Germans to give up the war...and that would have been 'END OF STORY'!.

[ July 09, 2004, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

[Lars]

In game terms, seems to me you're basically asking for bombing oil refineries to have an effect on air/armor movement range in addition to MPP's and bombing mines/cities to have an effect only on MPPs.

Interesting idea. Would give the Brits and Americans a reason to put a bomber group or two in the Med to go after the Romanian fields. Or for the Germans to actually build a bomber group to go after the Russian fields in the Caucuses.

[With Clusters]

Then we'd need another economic 'counter' figure to go along with MPPs (not just counting money, but one counting barrels of oil too, and how they are expended). Just don't see that happening for SC2, not at this juncture...

[Lars]

Well, not really. Hubert could come up with something that works under the hood.

But then I'd want the ability to bomb Germany's electrical net too, the real killer that was never done.

[Retributar]

You know Lars i think that not bombing the Electric Power Plants and Oil Facilities with the full attention that was needed to knock Germany out of the war... Might have been intentional.

You know thats why the big American companies are in Iraq...they are a bunch of greedy Bast*rd's that just want to profit from war!.

The industrialists might have had a say in how WW2 was fought!. They made Hundreds of Billions of dollars on war-munitions!.

Not only that.... but now Britain and America have seen what Stalin was like...was becoming. Stalin was land-grabbing one country after another.

So, when Germany attacked Russia...im sure that the U.S. & Britain wanted to see Stalin sufficiently weakened before they intervened to rescue him.

This way...Stalin wouldnt be that much of a threat anymore after Germany was defeated!.

[ July 09, 2004, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

[With Clusters]

Uh... ain't touching that w/ a 10 meter pole...

[Lars]

Uh uh, it's tinfoil hat time...

[SeaMonkey]

Yeah your right Retributar, but you forgot the French, Germans, Russians, oh heck, the whole UN who traded with a certain dictator in a scammed "Oil for Food" program. Let's face it, the entire world and all of its population feels entitled....Mars anyone?

[Shaka of Carthage]

Retributar

Of course those are my opinions. But I have studied numerous works regarding those issues and have been doing so for quite a few years.

Regarding the ME-262, you have to realize that it was designed as a interceptor. A aircraft specifically designed to go after and shoot down enemy bombers. Interceptors are almost worthless in gaining air superiority. You need fighters for that... and the ME-262 was not designed as a fighter.

Thats why having a thousand or so ME-262's would have had no effect on air superiority. Allied aircraft would have just shot them down when they were taking off or landing.

You also seem to have a misunderstanding as to how aircraft pilots are trained. Its a very small percentage of the general population that can be trained as a combat pilot.

As far as Hitlers decision making process and the status pre-Barborossa, you do realize that Germany was not at war with the US. So why should Hitler be concerned about the US? U-boats were economically squeezing the UK, so the UK wasn't a threat. So on and so on. One of the advantages we have is hindsight, so whats obvious to us, wasn't always an obvious choice back then.

For clarity purposes, what year is it you believe that it was "common knowledge among most people who understood the situation" that Germany had lost the war?

I'm aware that you belive the Strategic Bombing campaign was decisive and would have forced Germany to surrender. You remind me of the contemporary people who feverently believe that Precision Guided Munitions have made Artillery obsolete.

[Shaka of Carthage]

With Clusters & Lars

You're correct, that to properly reflect the importance oil had during WWII, we would need to have another economic unit. Quite awhile back, I suggested that and even worked out a system using the Oil symbols on the map to represent the output.

So far though, there is no indication that we will see another economic unit in SC2.

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by ev:

Second, the German spearheads were short of oil only because supply convoys could not reach them.

As I recall, the second wave had to give up some fuel to enable the first to be properly supplied at the start of the operation.

[Retributar]

Shaka you are correct about the ME 262...its really not first and formost a Fighter...but mainly an interceptor!...'ME 262-INTERCEPTOR!'.

However it did from time to time engage Allied fighters and was successful in destroying them...though it required an experienced pilot to do this.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/fighter%20plane

"in the hands of a more competent pilot, they could run down opposing fighters so quickly they simply didn't have time to get out of the way of its guns."

And right again i have no clue to what % of the population would qualify for the position of fighter pilot...no clue what-so-ever...but i think out of a population of 55,000,000 surely they could have fielded more pilots than they did!...what we have here is PPP 'Piss-Poor-Performance!'.

Britain declared war on Germany when Germany attacked Poland...Germany knew that America was an Ally of Britain from the personal experience in WW1...so i dont think Hitler was unaware of that cogenial friendship that existed there!.

As far as Hitlers decision making process and the status pre-Barborossa, you do realize that Germany was not at war with the US. So why should Hitler be concerned about the US?

WRONG!

Shaka i think you forgot that when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor...Germany declared war on the United States.... 6 months later Operation Barbarossa June 21-1941 began!. Well before Barbarossa took place...Germany was at war with the U.S. again Hitler was an absolute idiot for not taking this more seriously into account!.

-------------

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/wwii/dec/dec04.htm#germany

DECLARATION OF STATE OF WAR WITH GERMANY

--------------

When was it common knowledge that Germany was losing the war?

http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/histpol/hist108/lec12.html

"After Stalingrad, most German generals knew that the war could not be won. But the war went on for more thant two years at huge cost."

http://www.iusb.edu/~journal/1999/Paper2.html

"Germany had begun to lose its edge. In 1940, Germany was victorious and feared by many. By 1942, Germany was losing battles and losing strength. Hitler was stilled feared as an individual, but his plan was no longer taken seriously by many people. Hitler worked his men hard as he worked himself, but it was uncertain if that would be enough. But Hitler and Germany were not going to give up easily on their goal. It seemed to most people that Hitler would have to be killed in order to stop him."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERstauffenberg.htm

Claus von Stauffenberg

In 1942 he started associating with Henning von Tresckow, Fabin Schlabrendorff and other opponents of Adolf Hitler

And as far as me saying that Strategic Bombing was DECISIVE... WRONG AGAIN!. ...I did infer that it could have been decisive. It infact contributed a great deal to Germanys defeat!. Also without the Americans putting pressure on Germany...Russia very well could have lost the war. Russia was responsible for most of Germany's WW2 losses...yes...but without the United States assisting in the background...Russia could have lost.

Overall...i still stick with my basic arguments...on the whole i am quite correct...it is you who need to check on your facts!.

[ July 09, 2004, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

[Lars]

Barbarossa - June 22, 1941

Pearl Harbor -Dec 7, 1941

Retributar, please buy a calendar...