The Allies without the USSR

[Wachtmeister]

Beyond the all important access to critical resources is the equally important concept of industrial capacity. That is, the ability to convert all those raw materials into the sinews of war.

In the area of both latent basic industrial capacity, such as steel making , petroleum refining, aluminum production, etc., and finished goods manufaturing capacity, the WA had an overwhelming, possibly insurmountable, advantage.

In addition to the basic industries the USA, in particular, had an unmatched the capability to rapidly convert its finished goods manufacturing capacity from peacetime consumer goods prodution to war time manufacture of ships, aircraft and and armored fighting vehicles, just to name three major examples. Further, the USA was able to create new manufacturing capacity, as needed in a very short time.

This was all done without a significant reduction of living standards for the home front. Rationing tires, nylon stockings, and motor fuel can hardly be compared to the economic rigors of total war experienced by the civilian populations of most other belligerents, including those not directly attacked.

MPP's, Miltary Production Points, don't seem to account for the true production capacity of the WA in general, and the USA in particular. In game terms this is reflected in the small number of cities for the USA which I assume represent industrial capacity with the oil and mine hexes representing raw material.

It will be interesting to see how JJs' idea works out, given the lack of editing flexibility for SC1. I might try a little experimentation along those lines myself, after I get back from Boston next week. At least its something to pass the time waiting for SC2 and its "killer" editing capability.

[SeaMonkey]

Exactly Wachtmeister, that is in essence the problem with SC custom campaign editor. As the USA gears up its manufacturing war material capacity, the increase in MPPs should rise proportionally. Now once the Japanese have capitulated, which could have been earlier in 45, if the definition of the Emperor's status would have been agreed upon, the MPPs allotment for the USA should escalate considerably. I believe this scenario is not within the realm of the SC editor to simulate, but it will be interesting if JJ's suggestion produces the desired effect.

[pzgndr]

This is an interesting discussion. I would not suggest excluding Russia from the Allied equation simply for play balance, but Hubert's new feature about making them a non-cooperative ally, plus post-surrender partisans and other stuff, offers a lot of possibilities for SC2. The idea of non-cooperative allies not being able to provide intercept/escort, and perhaps to not move/operate units between allies, would make Russia more historical to play. For one thing, it would be nice to not see Brits in Stalingrad or Guards Tank Armies in Cairo.

Other possibilities include making UK and France non-cooperative (not unrealistic at all), and perhaps even Germany and Italy. These would be interesting variants. Ditto for Spain and Turkey as possible allies, perhaps cooperative and perhaps not. Anyway, I just wanted to insert this idea of non-cooperative status into the discussion. :cool:

[Liam]

agreed USA production in 1945 was unmatched. look up the figures and you'd likely have USA producing 750-1000 MPPs by herself with Industrial Tech 3 in SC1 Terms

[JerseyJohn]

Actually, JJ's idea can't work!

I went to the SC editor, had the USSR conquered by Germany wanted to create that partition of neutral hexes but we aren't allowed to do it!

I was certain that I'd painted neutral hexes somewhere along the line -- my mistake.

Pretty much means there's no way of creating this idea in the original SC.

[SeaMonkey]

Well it seems this hypothesis will have to wait for SC2. Thanks to all for participation. At least we smoked out a new feature of SC2, "uncooperative" status for allied countries, thanks Bill. I have to say that is a great suggestion and thanks to HC for making it a feature. I have to sit in silent wonderment in the potential of the SC2 editor, what a great second edition this will be.

[Wolfe]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

I went to the SC editor, had the USSR conquered by Germany wanted to create that partition of neutral hexes but we aren't allowed to do it!

I was certain that I'd painted neutral hexes somewhere along the line -- my mistake.

You're not wrong. I think it was available until the 1.06 patch. Questions about the Editor

If you want to go back to a previous version of the game, you could try that, but I don't think the neutral tiles ever worked the way they were supposed to.

- Chris

[Edwin P.]

Hubert's new feature about making them (RUSSIA) a non-cooperative ally, plus post-surrender partisans and other stuff, offers a lot of possibilities for SC2. The idea of non-cooperative allies not being able to provide intercept/escort, and perhaps to not move/operate units between allies, would make Russia more historical to play. For one thing, it would be nice to not see Brits in Stalingrad or Guards Tank Armies in Cairo.

Other possibilities include making UK and France non-cooperative (not unrealistic at all), and perhaps even Germany and Italy. These would be interesting variants. Ditto for Spain and Turkey as possible allies, perhaps cooperative and perhaps not. Anyway, I just wanted to insert this idea of non-cooperative status into the discussion.

Excellent feature, and with it goes my winning strategy of taking the Iraqi oil fields and Operating Air units to Russia or sending Russian Units to Cairo.

That said, Non-Cooperative status is a really good feature to add and will make the game more interesting. Especially if one is playing a MultiPlayer game where the Russian player may not want his aircraft to intercept fighters attacking UK or American units.

[pzgndr]

At least we smoked out a new feature of SC2, "uncooperative" status for allied countries, thanks Bill.

Nah, here's Hubert's quote from October 23 for those who missed the original smoke signal:

For surrendering, the behaviour will be similar to what existed in SC1 but liberation can be slightly different. In SC2 there will also be a 'Cooperative' flag that will control just how friendly your allied countries really are. Using the Allies as an example, if the USSR is currently active and aligned with the Allies but it is not set to 'Cooperative' then any country the USSR liberates will default to the USSR regardless of the pre-existing parent.

I just expanded on the idea a little bit, seeing how it was relevant to this USSR discussion.

[SeaMonkey]

Damn Bill, I guess there is no chance of manipulating a little dissention from the NDA, you are much to steadfast. Now if we could just find you and give that left arm a little twist...what wonders might be bestowed upon us?

[Kelly's Heroes]

This is a very interesting discussion.

Just a few points:

1) I don't think Russia would have surrendered in the traditional sense of the word. Just looking at the losses Russia sustained in WW2, and Stalin's iron determination to fight on, one can see that the Axis would have had to drive Soviet forces into the ground in order to achieve any type of victory.

Given the above, if Russia did capitulate, then the Axis would have been forced to keep a lot of troops in the east just to contend with millions of partisans. One can be sure that Soviet forces would have withdrawn to Siberia to continue the fight. They were, after all, fighting for their homeland.

2) Given the total war nature of the fight in the east, it would be clear that most of the Soviet infrastructure and factories, rail lines, etc would have been smashed and destroyed. These would have required a few years to re-build and re-tool. This doesn't even take into account the brutal Russian winters in trying to re-build.

3) The Soviet citizenry would have been un-cooperative, and this goes back to point one above.

4) If Russia had "fallen" in late 1943 or early 1944, the Allies would have been heavily placed in England and North Africa. This would allow the Allies the ability of bombing the Axis, plus giving them the option of landing anywhere in Europe. This last option would have forced the Axis to station troops throughout Europe, and not just at Normandy. Axis forces would have been spread very thin.

5) Even if Russia had fallen the Axis forces would have been shattered after many years of brutal fighting in the east. They would have required rest, re-fitting, re-organization, and then transporting back to the west.

6) Had Russia fallen, then I think there is the very real possibility that the USA would have gone on a total war footing. And given the fact that the USA alone supplied the bulk of weaponry for the war against Germany and Japan, plus Lend-Lease, I think the USA could have churned out even more military weapons and men.

The above are just a few thoughts.

I think there will be some very interesting alternative scenarios that will be worth playing in SC2.

[ November 20, 2004, 03:04 PM: Message edited by: Kelly's Heroes ]

[SeaMonkey]

Good points KH,

One facet of my thinking is that, as you presented above, the surrender of the USSR probably would have been more of a government armistice than a capitulation of the people/army. With the vast expanse of eastern USSR to retreat to, I'm sure unorganized resistance would soon become more centralized and focused as new sources of war materials became available to the partisans(Free Soviets) :confused: .

[JerseyJohn]

Wolfe

Thanks Chris for clarifying that neutral square and editor version situation. I'm sure you're right, that Hubert dropped the features because there were problems attached, probably due to hexes being neutral without reference to a specific neutral nation. I'm pretty sure I experimented with it and the game crashed early on.

[Jeff Heidman]

Originally posted by Desert Dave:

How on Earth could they assult "Fortress Europa" when all those elite, and victorious, and experienced GErman units (... save a few for occupation and anti-partisan duties) would be immediately transferred West?

Simple, they would not.

The continuation of WW2 would have gone on in other parts of the world than Europe. And Germanies basic problem would still exist - too many enemies, too much space to garrison, not enough production. And a populace that is not that interested in a never ending war against people who they are not really convinced are their enemies to begin with.

After Germany loses a few million men taking out the USSR, and is involved in a continuing occupation of Greece, France, Norway, the Low Countires, Yugoslavia, and all of the USSR, how much political will would there be to send more German troops to North Africa, or Greece, or wherever it is that the US and the UK decide to start picking away at the Third Reich?

[majama]

We must remember that Soviet Union was not really allies, but always it was like third force in Europe. In beginning of WW2 Soviets atacked Poland together with German, and in that moment Poland was in hopeless situation and General Commander of Polish army make order: not fight with Russians and evacuate goverment and army to western Allies. Long time important German politc Ribentrop lead diplomatic efforts to join Soviet Union to German side. I think that this option should be possible in SC2.

Really intentions of Stalin it was not destroy Hitler, but rule all Europe.

Soviet Union must be as third force or it will be fantastic game.

[majama]

Im from Poland, i know what i sad Soviets do always his own buisness

sorry for my poor english

[JerseyJohn]

majama,

Your English is fine, perfectly understandable.

Excellent points made, glad you posted them.

Last year we had a lot of good threads discussing Poland and it's place in European affairs from the end of WWI thru the German invasion in 1939.

We also had numerous descussions on the Free Poles who fought with the British and some mention of Polish troops who fought with the Soviets. Elsewhere we discussed the rift between Churchill and Stalin regarding post war Poland and whether or not it would be a Moscow oriented communist nation.

I hope we'll have more discussions like those and that you'll fill us in on things the rest of us don't know about.

Great Posts.

[majama]

Thanks, i only have to said that Soviets was cruel, greed and sly, not as righteous as western allies.

This fact should be respected by game.

here (as digression)somethink link about soviets ocupants murders:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_Massacre

Many poeple are curious how situation can be when Soviets divided Europe in pact with German instead join Allies.