Intel Tech

[Edwin P.]

Lars quote:

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Originally posted by pzgndr:

No, the enemy's build queue is hidden. This might be something for the reports screen though, a breakdown of units on the map plus those in the queue? At least by land, air and naval types, without getting too specific.

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Intriguing idea if you could link it to the Intel Tech.

It will be interesting to see what benefits the Intel tech offers, besides seeing units adjacent to a city hex.

Perhaps:

At Intel Tech 00 - MPP production of each nation as a time chart, as this should be publicly available knowledge.

At Intel Tech 01 - How many research and diplomacy chits a player has & lend lease MPPs income.

MPP Production

- Lend Lease Expense

+ Lend Lease Income

Net MPP Income

At Intel Tech 02 - Location of 1 Randomly selected Enemy HQ unit & how many research and diplomacy chits a player has.

At Intel Tech 03 - Location of 2 Randomly selected Enemy HQ units and how many research and diplomacy chits a player has.

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Will your effective Intel level be reduced by your enemy's intel level?

Example: Germany Intel 2, UK 0, US 2

Effective Germany Intel vs UK = 2 - Germany can see 1 UK HQ unit.

Effective Germany Intel vs US = 0 - Germany can see 0 USA HQ units.

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I know that its not going to be included in Sc2 but I would like to see a Partisan Investment Area (Max 2 levels) that would allow selected nations to activate Partisans in one conquered neutral nation per Tech level and/or increase (or decrease) the chance for partisans in an existing nation subject to partisan activity.

Example: Russia could increase the chance for Russian partisans to occur, but could not activate partisans in other nations.

Example: UK could activate partisans in conquered neutral nations.

Example: France & Italy could not invest in Partisan development.

[ September 16, 2005, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[pzgndr]

Well for now all Intel tech does is increase your research bonus and decreases your opponent's. I agree there are lots of other little things intel could affect, but right now it's simple and that's a good thing.

[Edwin P.]

Increasing the your research bonus and decreasing your opponent's is good as it more accurately reflects the impact of intelligence and counter intelligence efforts on protecting and stealing research and manufacturing secrets.

Question;

Does Intel Tech also allow you to see units in or adjacent to a city tile, as mentioned in an earlier post?

[ September 17, 2005, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Blashy]

I like that about how simple it is pzgndr, it keeps SC2 flowing with the same concept of SC2.

I think it should go ahead as is and see what the general gamers think of it.

[pzgndr]

Edwin, this is one of those tentative ideas that didn't get implemented. We thought an increase in spotting range for resources based on intel tech might be OK but it complicates possible mods which may use a different scale. Keeping things as simple and as generic as possible is probably best in the long run.

Intel was such a fickle thing during WWII. "Real" intel like our Japanese intercepts prior to Midway provided useful insights about enemy plans and allowed us to counter-maneuver accordingly. There is no good way in wargames to capture something like this! A few extra spottings here and there may help a little, but you still don't know what you opponent is going to actually do.

[Edwin P.]

Many thanks for the update.

It was just that I was hoping for something that would help the AI. For example; in SC1 the Axis AI would ignore Cairo or London when it was undefended and no Allied units were in Egypt/England. If the Axis AI knew that there were no units in or adjacent to Cario it could be coded to invade Egypt a percentage of the time.

The increase/decrease to the research bonus is good and I like it, though I wish that Intel offered something more - such as a chart that gradually uncovers the fog of war in the level of investment for each research area and tech level in various areas. This would give me a more visible return for my investment in Intel.

Example:

Intel Tech Level 0:

Total UK Research: ? Unknown

Intel Tech Level 1:

Total UK Research: 3

Intel Tech Level 2:

Jets - Research Spending: 2

Armor - Research Spending: 1

Total UK Research - 3

Intel Tech 3:

Jets - Research Spending: 2, Tech Level 1

Armor - Research Spending 1, Tech Level 0

Total UK Research: 3

[ September 17, 2005, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Edwin P.]

Idea: So that one can see the effect of intelligence tech have a popup when you discover something or prevent an enemy from discovering an advance due to your intelligence tech bonus/penalty.

Example: If your enemy fails to discover a tech advance due to your intel tech level effect on their research bonus have a popup - "[German] Counter Intelligence reports the capture of [American] enemy agents."

Simarily if your; [German], normal chance for discovering a tech advance is 6% and you get a 1% bonus for your Intel Tech for a total of 7%, let there be on a roll of 7 (not 1 thru 6) a popup that says - "[GERMAN] agents acquire [submarine] design secrets."

This enhancement makes the effect of this tech visible to players while preserving its simplicity.

[ September 17, 2005, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Hubert Cater]

Edwin,

These are some pretty good ideas and it is not to say that they might not be entertained at some point, but for now we wanted to have at least a base (simple as it may be) modelled in terms of intelligence while we continue to focus on finishing up the game.

As you all know, every detail takes time, and that will be one of the good things about SC2... lots of new and very powerful *details*

Hubert

[Lars]

Well, since I started this somehow.

Looking at it now, would be great for the multi-player game to have the Intel Tech give you more and more detail on the opposition. To expand on Edwin's line a bit, say Intel 4 you get to see the production queue for the other side, and at Intel 5 you get to see everything everywhere. Although, I doubt you'd ever get to 5 if the other side's Intel level gets subtracted from yours to reflect counterintel.

But Edwin, as for how you'd code all this so an AI could take advantage of the info, as opposed to a human player, beats the hell outta me.

[pzgndr]

In WWII terms, we're probably at Intel Level 20 now and we still cannot see everything everywhere!! Let's be a little careful chasing this intel chimera around and trying to lift completely the fog of war, especially for the 1939-45 time period.

As for something that would help the AI, there are probably neat things that could be done based on Intel level to enhance what the AI knows and how it behaves. And players could then experiment with starting some countries off with higher intel levels or invested chits to get a better challenge. Maybe, hopefully.

[Edwin P.]

Excellent points, pzgndr and Lars.

a. As to how to code the AI to take advantage of this? Perhaps, and this is just one idea, the knowledge gained could help the AI to direct its research/diplomacy expenditures to counter the human's expenditures.

Axis is researching & building Subs = Allied AI 75% likely to research antisub tech.

Russia research is 100% Anti Armor = German AI 50% likely to focus on researching Anti-Infantry.

b.As for neat things that could be based on Intel level to enhance the AI there are many.

Perhaps at Intel Level 1 the AI (and only the AI) knows if a city is occupied, at Intel Level 2 the AI knows if any of the titles surrounding a city is occupied, at Intel Level 3 the AI knows how many naval warships and transports are located in the North Atlantic, South Atlantic, Baltic, Western Med, Eastern Med and the Arabian Sea, at Intel Level 4 the AI spy network knows the location of all enemy air units and at Intel Level 5 the Ai knows how many enemy units are in each country.

Intel 5 Example:

AI knows that Axis has only 1 unit in Norway and Sweden and thus Western allies are 90% likely to launch Nordic Liberation Campaign. AI knows that Axis has 5 units in Norway and WA are 5% likely to launch Nordic Liberation Campaign given this information.

By Gradually giving the AI access to more information it can, to a limited extent, make better decisions and yet the overall effect of the FOW is preserved so that the Human player can still surprise the AI.

PS: HC, keep working on that base system.

[ September 19, 2005, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[SeaMonkey]

Perhaps something simple for intel levels to be tied to would be "Scripts" activations.

Certain levels of intel/counter-intel would trigger an active script that defines the % probability of activation and which side needs to reach that level.

Once activated, certain effects could then be scripted dependent upon the level of intel/counter-intel attainment.

Example:

1.If Axis reach level 1 then "X" effect takes place.

2. Axis level 2 creates "Y" effect

etc.

Simple...yet completely dependent upon the user editing.

[ September 19, 2005, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: SeaMonkey ]

[Edwin P.]

Originally posted by pzgndr:

As for something that would help the AI, there are probably neat things that could be done based on Intel level to enhance what the AI knows and how it behaves. And players could then experiment with starting some countries off with higher intel levels or invested chits to get a better challenge. Maybe, hopefully.

I like it. It will be interesting to see what HC thinks and does to make for a better challenge vs. the AI.

Perhaps, at Intel 3 - the AI sees Enemy HQ units, and at Intel 4 the AI sees enemy Air Units and at Intel 5 the AI has a 50% to gain a research advance each time the opposing side gains a research advance.