amphib invasion during late fall, winter ,early spring

[arado234]

Does seem possible that the allies or germans would try a cross channel invasion in say oct nov dec jan feb mar considering that the weather then is so unpredictable that it was never attempted at all.I think that the next patch should make it impossible for an invasion of england or france in the months mentioned.The germans felt it coudnlt be attempted no latter than mid sept and the allies pretty much the same.Look what happened in normandy when that big storm came in and wiped out one mulberry harbour & severly damaged the other one(this was when the weather was supposed to be relativly good).

[Retributar]

I have been making that argument forever arado234 , but so far no-one seem's to care!.

I agree that invasion's should only be permissable during certain time's of year, but...also as you mentioned, that anything under less than ideal weather-channel-condition's/circumstance's should exact a cost of some sort!.

[vector]

I think it is total BS that they can invade for at least a full year after taking france. The Germans had no landing craft and no way to get to England. I am getting my clock cleaned in a game where the german player throws everything at me right after france and I have no found a way of defending against it without completely leaving Egypt and moving 100% of asset back to England. Maybe I am a noob but 4X Airattacks on london and 4 consecutive army attacks take out london in one turn! This is bull****.

[Blashy]

Well Vector, your massive navy can definitly make the Axis have an unsuccessfull landing. They will land some units, but it will cost them the game.

You need some practice .

[Retributar]

Not only that Blashy , but ' vector ' has a valid argument, in that the German's, no-matter what, would even...at best have been inadequately - prepared to carry out a robust invasion attempt!.

From what i can recall of this situation, it is that the German's mostly commandered anything from all of Europe that could float!. Also, they had to 'Modify' barges and other vessel's to carry vehicular equipment!. Many of these potential invasion craft were also not specifically designed to negotiate the English Channel!. So, i would say, that yes, it was not impossible to Invade England, but it would have had to have been done under quite favourable weather condition's, coupled with strong 'Air' & 'Sea Escort!'.

Someone need's to do an in-depth study on actual German Amphibious capability for the proposed Operation 'Sea-Lion' event!.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sealion

Operation Sealion:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is also important to note that the transport ships to be used were, amongst others, primarily river barges, as the Germans had no specialised landing craft. This would have limited the quantity of artillery and tanks that could have been transported, and restricted operations to times of good weather .

In addition, the losses in men and material suffered by the German airborne troops over the Low Countries in May during the Battle of the Netherlands could not be replaced in time for the planned operation .

It should be remembered that the Normandy landings in 1944 were a close run thing and that was with years of preparation, the largest invasion force ever assembled, total Air and Naval superiority and the Germans fighting in occupied France (the French Resistance etc) and being involved on multiple fronts .

[TFL]

In my opinion the game is fine as it is. I know that sealion in the autumn was not historical, but the possibility should be there for game purposes.

Historically the germans were still planning sealion (for summer), and had things gone differently with the air war, who knows they may have given it a try. To my understanding one requirement for sealion was absolute air superiority, but the germans never managed to achieve it. This alone set back their plans, even if they had other problems as well. But the chance was there and because of that the British were preparing for it, instead off going on against Norway or attacking in the Med as they might have done otherwise.

If the chance for sealion is removed from SC2, the game has one less viable option. Additionally the British would be able to do anything they want, since they know that home isles are safe. This would be both gamey and unhistorical.

[Guest Mike]

There is plenty of info available about Sealioni, and basically it boils down to the Germans would ahve been massacred by the RN, with or without "adequate" air support.

The basic plan is well known - ad hoc transports were assembled from all over Western Europe - IIRC something like 25% of all Rhine barges were commandeered, greatly disrupting normal commerce (which was one of the major effects!)

However there were only enough transports to move one wave at a time - the transports for the 1st wave had to return to Europe to pick u the 2nd.

and it would take 3 days off the English coast to unload the 1st wave.

The Brits had something like 80-90 destroyers to about 25-30 German DD's and torpedo boats (small destroyers, not E-boats), 20+ cruisers to 6 or 8, 8 battleships to a couple of pocket battleships and a pre-dereadnought used as a gunnery training ship that they planned to beach as a battery.

The RN could have descended on the anchored German fleet at night from bases out of range of the luftwaffe - IMO it would have been a massacre.

[Liam]

Absolutely, once at sea the German's would be sort of like Ducks in a Barrel, with the Enigma Intel being constantly compromized worse! Even still, the English Intel had been compromised as well at Sea. The British weren't the only nation actively attempting to break the others codes! Naval and Air Supremacy, as important as an invasion or where it might occur. In bad weather, no invasion could've been performed without running the risk of considering these vessels would run without lights and with extreme secrecy of HIGH LOSSES! German's landing in England should pay a 50% toll to get there and that is how you best simulate truth!

Similarly with Allies Landing in unfavorable conditions on the German Mainland, the Brits help themselves through Denmark and Wilhelmshaven. These regions would've been bristling with Heavy Guns, Defensive measures, not an easy task but easy in SC2 terms.

The thing is, on both ends amphibious landings are too easy. If you make impossible, England will be abandoned and The Limeys with the tactical Superiority will go off Minor Hopping and Gamey manuevers all about the Mediterreanan. That is why for game balance you cannot make it impossible only costly, which my friends you can do if you know how! It is an artform. Though Recon, Long Range and and using the Russians and Americans to maull the Leftovers is the Art you must learn...

That or get rid of the Jump in readiness for the USSR and USA to some extent and make these invasions for both Sides more difficult otherwise you hamper game balance.

[ChrisND]

Liam if right, I think that the possibility of a Sealion needs to exist in the game, at any time, for one simple reason: the British player shouldn't assume that it will never come and let all defenses leave.

If the Sealion were made illegal to do, then imagine the gamey tactics some people would do with their Enlgish defense units.

[Liam]

Naturally, Normal Dude!

Sea Lion can be performed if say there is 1 Corps, 100k British Regulars sitting in Manchester and the entire British Armed forces camping Algeria or Egypt in 1940! Possibly Denmark and Northern Germany!

You cannot void out this as an option to the Germans. Neither can you void out a possible D-Day for the Allies. Making it predictable by weather only makes it tougher on the side attempting to perform it. That means the units expecting it will operate over where they are able to prevent it before it comes, or take extreme defensive measures and abandon those regions until. Really just gamey. They should always expect something! Expect the unexpected I say, in this strategic game whose to say what may happen...

Anyway with a Real Sea Lion, German's would've likely secured Ports with Paratroopers and then brought in the Army via the Transports, not actually used real transports, it is possible to launch the entire German Forces to sea and invade the USA in this game, it's not like it's actually historically accurate

Originally posted by Normal Dude:

Liam if right, I think that the possibility of a Sealion needs to exist in the game, at any time, for one simple reason: the British player shouldn't assume that it will never come and let all defenses leave.

If the Sealion were made illegal to do, then imagine the gamey tactics some people would do with their Enlgish defense units.

[ChrisND]

Besides, we don't have to do things the way zee Germans did. Research amphib tech and you are simulating procuring more amphib craft. Freedom to the player! : )