Sombra vs. Jollyguy, Ladder Game AAR

[Sombra]

August 1942. German forces storm Stalingrad.

OKW is considering to split forces. A small task force of 3-4 tank divisions ,a ´few corps and armies + 2 HQ to caputure the southern resource centers while the main body of troops moves slowly to Sverdlosvsk.

[ June 18, 2006, 12:53 AM: Message edited by: Sombra ]

[Sombra]

Still august 1942. Germans take Kubsubsy (no idea how to write that). Allies take Bruessel.

A German task force dispatched to France to clear things up. Allies a way superior in Air but their ground troop are way inferior in tech but superior in numbers. Will be interessting...

[Jollyguy]

Okay, I'm going to call this one, Sombra wins, Axis victory in late 1942. But I think this was probably the game I learned the most from, and one where I believe I learned much better how to play the Russians...and how not to play them. It was Sombra's methodical play in Russia that took me awhile to figure out, but once I did I could see how he was playing to the new strengths in SC 2, which is biased toward offensive action. And not one to hoard my observations, I like sharing them to foster discussion.

I think my play out west was good. I got up to long range air two or three for the Brits, and hit that German port constantly, the one near the Danish Peninsula, to cutoff the Norwegian/Swedish convoys. Blashy told me that is a critical port, and it is. I think I had those convoys turned off for 1 1/2 years. I also sank most of the Kreigsmarine. Sombra never brought the Italians into play, never attacked Gibralter, but did take Malta.

The Americans I had mainly research and buy air, and I'm thinking there's probably a better mix there. I was too much industrial and production tech and air, not enough tanks and infantry techs.

But the interesting part of the game was in Russia, watching Sombra steadily move forward, even against my infantry weapons 2 and anti-tank 3. There was one key in my opinion. This is what he would do.

1) Move forward and envelope a city with an entrenched unit, hit it or not depending. This cuts it to 5 supply. Next turn hit with four air, usually German first in case I had intercepts on, and join in with the Rumanian and Italian unit. This is to reduce the entrenchment. Then hit it with ground units. Like the directions on a shampoo bottle...lather, rinse, repeat, he did this time after time during his early Barbarossa.

2) Here's the key. Once he got deeper into Russia, and especially after the Siberians arrived, he would never, ever put units right up against the next target city. Never. He would always set-up at least one hex away. Then he would hit the city with his four or more air combination, then attack with ground units. The reason Sombra did this is simple...since the game is biased toward offense he didn't want to give me first crack at hitting his ground units first. Since figuring this out there are other games where my Axis opponents are placing units against my (Siberian) Russians, and I'm delivering punishing attacks before he can kickoff his attack. Placing units against similarly tech'ed units is an old habit from SC 1, and Sombra has already figured out not to do this. This IMO was the key to his Russian campaign.

So, by methodically following this pattern, and knowing I was hesitant to break my entrenchments, he slowly ground down me like hamburger.

Now, I welcome discussion, but here's what I think the Russians need to do:

1) Research infantry weapons and anti-tank, of course.

2) Research some production tech, as your going to have a lot of units to replace.

3) Switch from research to buying units in late 1940 or so.

4) Defend early Barbarossa with entrenched corps, and if you run out of them, armies. They're cheaper.

5) Keep falling back, generally toward the environs of Volga, where the Siberians will arrive. If its a normal Barbarossa, DO NOT attack before the Siberians arrive.

6) Save your tanks. I was entrenching my middle and rear cities like Moscow with entrenched tanks, but I would save them now.

7) Once the Siberians arrive, set up a mobile reserve. In general, elite reinforce them.

8) Maintain a defensive posture, and use that mobile reserve to hit when you think in your favor.

If the Russians just sit there they will be ground down. IMO what they need to do is hit back when possible when it is hoped the mpp exchange favors them. The game is a lot of attack/counter attack now, but that's okay, you just need to realize attacking inflicts more damage on average than defending.

IMO, SC 2 is like chess now, with your cheap corps the pawns, and your tanks the rooks and queens, with other units your bishops and knights. So, lead with the corps and be willing to loose them to gain position, then follow-up with other units. In the long run it should be a war of attrition, with game balance tilting to one side or another. But if you just sit there defensively, you will lose.

Bob

[dicedtomato]

Counterattacking as Russia didn't work real well for me against Sombra's Germany. The Russians invariably took much heavier losses, probably because the German troops have plenty of experience points. You can't put your HQs too close to the front because German air will destroy them, and even if you successfully counterattack, the air will finish your weakened units on the next Axis turn. I play Russia a lot in strategic games, and you reach that Point of Meatgrinding where Russia loses more than it can replace.

I did have some success in killing Sombra's panzers, but when Germany attacks with 5 or 6 Panzers, four air and lots of IW2 or IW3 infantry, Russia has problems. I had IW3, AT2 and HT3, and it didn't save me. The Siberians help, but they come too late.

An aggressive Russia can hurt a sloppy German. But against a methodical player like Sombra, it doesn't work. Yet staying on the defensive doesn't work either, so I'm not quite sure what to do with Russia.

DT

[Sombra]

Jollyguy not much to add to your analysis of the game.

The game form my point of view was a little bit weird because Spain never joined ( 4th time in a row) this limits severely the options of the axis.

Hitting on Kiel (the port near Denmark ) and keeping my resources down in the west was a real pain. Your air was simply deadly in the west.

With the tech limits you dont have any possibility to invest in Air defense (And I wished to)

In SC1 you could hold positions with numerical inferior forces. Sc2 changed that rule, the side with "more units" wins an encounter. I think Hubert did the right thing to strengthen the defense of armies a bit. After I got used ot the new defense its fun. Simply you have to threaten your enemy to counterattack forcing him to concentrate his troops where you want him to move and slow him down. Piecemeal defense 4-5 units here and there is doomed. Usally I have 3 waves of troops ready to hit. First attack taking out the defenders, waiting for the counterattack and then move in again to wipe out the weakend attacker and in case the rusians still have untis you need another fresh wave of german troops. Weather and speed is very important here.

I agree with nearly all your points regarding the Russia strategy. I build up as Axis for Barbarossa to start in May - June 1941. The Russians should do the same having their core troops placed latest in June. From July 1940 I think the Russians should constantly buy a least one unit every round. Its simply to have later on enough troops to cheaply replace them and having reinforcements arriving every round to fill up gaps without op move units.

Same goes for the US they should build up their forces to be ready for action as soon as the Us enters the war round about May 1942. At this time Germany is pushed to its limits in the east having to face the Siberians etc. If you can take cities in the west at this time the axis to is already spread to the breaking point. The longer the axis is in the war the more difficult it gets for them. IMHO they have only 1942-1943 to win in the east or at least braking the Russian back. Afterwards you will see a rollback and a race to Berlin.

The moment the axis is losing the iniative and has to react to Allies moves its over for them.

P.S: Jollyguy if you don’t mind I would like to play the Allies in our next game or having to games at the same time. Somehow everybody wants to play Allies and from time to time its nice to switch sides.

[dicedtomato]

Sombra, I'm curious to hear your plan for building a large Russian army while still achieving a minimum of IW2/AT2/HT2 by mid-1941.

I'm also curious how you build a large Russian army when the Germans don't attack Norway, Yugoslavia or Greece, which means Soviet war readiness (and MPPs) don't rise. Axis conquest of Suez gives a little bit of a boost, but when you launched Barbarossa in our last game, I doubt my readiness was above 70 percent.

As for building a unit every turn, you might be able to do a basic corps. But an army costs at least 170 MPPs, which another 70-80 to add tech. You can save time by building vanilla units without tech, but the Russian steamroller in 1941 is more like a steam bicycle.

PS. Check ICQ. I offered to play you as the Axis.

DT

[Sombra]

DT, soemtimes you have to cut back in research. Contrary to Terif I think intelligence is useful if you are the underdog How much I invest and the placement of my troops depends much on luck of research. One of the keys to Rusia for me is to place some lucky chits in producion tech and industrial tech. (Its some kind of chain reaction if you get advances there early on). In the beginning you have already quite a nice force of troops avaible I am still looking for a spare task force to take out the Finns with the start of Barbarossa

[Jollyguy]

I agree with Sombra on the Russians (trying) to buy units, and his IT/PT and intelligence. IMO, intelligence does the least for the Germans initially and especially with the new caps, but is worthwhile for the Russians and US, to piggyback on what the Germans are doing.

I think in my next Allied game I will have the Russians buy one intelligence chit first: then an IT chit; then a PT chit: then get up to three infantry and tank chits; then start buying units. I think I’ll also sell the rocket chit ASAP, the first turn. I have yet to get in a game where rockets had a decisive effect. Then mix in two tanks with cheap corps.

Yes, it’s always tough in early Barbarossa, but it is for the Germans, too. Like Sombra said, although from the Allied side you think they’re an unstoppable force, the Axis is stretched too. And yes, the Russians will take losses by counterattacking, but so will the Germans. It’s a slugfest game now. The alternative to not wanting to exchange blows is to slowly but surely get grind down by the Germans.

And out west the Allies need to make as much trouble as possible without getting reckless. Hit that port, and hit the German and French mines. We all knew it, but long range air is important for the Allies, and to chase off an Axis HQ that might be lingering near Bordeux to help out the Brest corp. Without HQ support Brest takes more damage sooner. If I’d seen that HQ of Sombra’s near Bordeux sooner I wouldn’t have taken as many ship hits as I did.

The Brit also need to get the RAF up to four fighters. And they’re carriers, although much less valuable than in SC 1, are good anti-ship units, and also okay against land units in the open, not in cities. In general I would say Brit carriers are low in the list of upgrade priorities, but depending on how the game developed, could be useful, i.e., if the Italian navy made a dash for France. In that case maybe it would be worthwhile to upgrade the carriers. Remember, ship defense was lowered against carriers in the patches.

And in Barbarossa Sombra did keep his offensive force compact. He never even went for the two upper cities of mine, he headed right for Stalingrad. And although I couldn’t fully see what he had, I imagine it was like a scrum in rugby, basically a wedge formation…which I understand is so effective it’s banned in rugby.

But I was taking losses in Russia just trying to defend, so why not take losses on the attack instead, when you can take some of the enemy down with you? I have a feeling that if I’d taken out just a handful of corps/armies/and a tank or two, that his momentum might have stalled. And then when I landed in Brussels Sombra opped over two level 4 tanks that I could see. I could have evacuated my Brits, but in the meantime, and assuming I had chipped away at some of Sombra’s units, the Russians would have gotten some breathing room. Then the second phase of the war would have started and maybe the Russians have a chance. Sitting there they have no chance against a good Axis opponent.

[Agamemnon]

One of the keys to Rusia for me is to place some lucky chits in producion tech and industrial tech.

Lucky Chits? I'll have to reread the manual.

[AZGungHo]

GREAT Thread!!

I've been a little dismayed of late about what's been discussed here, but you have renewed my hope!

I learned more about the play of this game from you wrote than anything else I've seen!

Many thanks!

[Iron Ranger]

Nice posts, some good information. I see one feature that made me quit SC... no one is willing to finish a game (sadly I was this way as well at times... many against Terif). If there are 3 phase's to SC... start (german advantage)... middle (turn the tide?)... and end game (can you hold out for the draw 1946); Once the start phase is over most players conceade, I understand it might not be 'fun' to continue for one person but why should I play if (as say Allies) as soon as someone feels they cant win they quit? The mirror system helps avoid this to some degree but I'd like to see some end game plays as well.

[Blashy]

Desert Dave is trying to hold me off from a Major victory in our game. I give him kudos for sticking it through.