Elit units?

[Chris G]

To make SC2 an even more realistic WWII simulator it would be a great idea to make it possible to manufacture units with higher moral and readiness from start, of course to a higher cost. Those units should me named from a separate list. (See my previous thread.)

This is something almost all PC games so far have missed. This is to reflect for instance the higher moral in SS units and the impact that gave on the WWII battlefield.

It should not generate too much of extra work, but give a lot back in gaming experience.

[SeaMonkey]

The feature will be there for SC2 as it was in SC1, its called experience.

[Chris G]

Seamonkey, pls read the post before answering.

[pzgndr]

Units will have to earn experience as in SC1.

As for building "stronger" units at higher cost, SC2 will allow players to customize new units. Say you have L3 in Anti-Tank, Infantry Weapons, and Motorization. Wanna build an infantry unit with L3 in all areas? Go ahead, and pay the extra cost. What makes these new units better? Besides equipment, one can always assume it's due to better morale and training or whatever. Name that high speed special unit Gross Deutschland or SS or whatever you want. Take care of it with elite reinforcements as it gains experience and grows to become a truly elite unit amongst an otherwise average force pool. This will be possible in SC2.

[SeaMonkey]

Thanks Bill....I give up... no offense Chris but you must be a recent graduate of the US public school system. Sorry we let you down.

[Chris G]

Could someone who understand english pls answer my question.

I'm talking about moral and rediness NOT experience, then that is something you gain thru combat. Also this is NOT an issue about equipment. As I heard from Hubert moral will be included in SC2 unlike SC1.

So what we're talking about is NOT experienced reinforcements or any of that above it is just as the original question: Can you buy troops with higer moral? Again I'll point out the fact that they should cost more and take longer time to produ

[pzgndr]

Can you buy troops with higer moral?

No.

[Shaka of Carthage]

SeaMonkey and pzgndr are way too nice to respond to the insult. Since I've already pissed of one person, another won't matter. So allow me.

"They will try to understand better, if you try to be smarter."

[Chris G]

Intresting to notice that Hubert Carter understod my question directly and came up with a clear and fast answer.

I recommend you morons to keep away from my threads here after. Thx!

[pzgndr]

I recommend you morons to keep away from my threads

Seems holiday stress is taking its toll.

Chris, SeaMonkey provided a decent response to your comment about a feature that is not part of SC1 nor planned for SC2. I added some context to show what you CAN do in SC2. And Hubert confirmed all this. So chill out. Let's move on.

[SeaMonkey]

Sorry Chris G for my moronic vagueness, but it was my natural inclination to provoke abstract thought in my fellow man. I had assumed you were familiar with the mechanics of SC to the point of an innovative episode of contemplation in the application of its features. I will try to be more definitive in the future, please accept my apology.

[Chris G]

Omg

[Victor Reijkersz]

Or in other words: multiple variables can add to the same modifier (combat strength). Morale as extra variable as providing a positive modifier on combat strength is pointless, since it could just as well be modled through experience. Only point of adding morale is if it for example influences the retreat-behaviour of a unit.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Chris G:

To make SC2 an even more realistic WWII simulator it would be a great idea to make it possible to manufacture units with higher moral and readiness from start, of course to a higher cost. Those units should me named from a separate list. (See my previous thread.)

What are you getting at? You seem to be out to cause trouble. Good idea, but sc 2 needs to be simple and possible to comprehend. Your idea is even upsetting the forum, try to chill out. No need to assault people verbally too.

[ December 16, 2004, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: Kuniworth ]

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Chris G:

Omg

Hedon. Ask Jesus for forgivness.

[Night]

I understand what chris is saying... Seamonkey maybe you need to go back to public school?

I think it would be a good idea, just look at real life as an example, the U.S. spends a vastly larger amount on training and preparing troops, and thus has better quality troops. Why not have the same option in SC? They had it in The Blue and the Gray, a civil war strat game, where you could spend more time training your troops and they would come out with a better quality rating, but you would have to wait longer before they were avalible to fight of course.

[Shaka of Carthage]

Night, whats being asked for is already there somewhat. To reflect training and doctrine, SC does that by using experience bars (as each experience bar gives better combat abilities). The only thing lacking is the ability to have purchased units come with no experience bars, one experience bar or two experience bars.

So there really isn't a need to have an additional field called "moral", to reflect better combat abilities.

Not being able to reflect better experienced (ie trained) units when you purchase them, are really only a problem for the CW initially and Germany.

[General Bolt]

First of all I've only recently played the SC1 demo and I'm holding out for SC2. Put me down as a rookie to the -5 degree.

Chris was asking if you could buy high morale troops. The Hilter Yute division was green when sent to Normandy, but they battled the Brits around Caen with a high level of morales. The 101AB was untested proir to D-DAy and its record was outstanding also. From that I'd assume not all morale comes from exeriance. I will say these are probably two extreme examples.

Seems like you should be able to buy scuh a unit but at a very high trainng cost. HY was in training for since they were 8 years old.

[SeaMonkey]

Look I understand what y'all are trying to say, and there is something to be said for better training and performance. What I'm saying is the mechanism to accomplish this task is in SC, not exactly as way you have described it, but never the less a means to the same end. You can train your forces with actions against partisans and neutral country forces, other opportunities as mopping up out of supply, low strength unit engagements do exist for you to exploit. Think of it as "live fire" training. Operate the unit from place to place to take advantage of these scenarios = cost more MPPs, upgrade them with better equipment, make sure they are supported by high level HQ with lots of experience, allow them to kill off opposing units. When you examine a unit subjected to this type of exercise, notice the readiness level; isn't readiness a function of morale and training? When a unit with say 108% readiness, high in experience bars, high tech level strength and supported by an HQ with high experience and command level, attacks another unit aren't the results similar to the actions of a real life "elite unit"? Sure its not exactly reality, but its the best representation short of it. This scale(SC) is not about detailed simulations, there are other games that fulfill that parameter, SC has been successful because it is simple, credible, fun and yet has a lot of depth, all through the enormous accomplishment(take a bow HC) of abstraction, we are only asking you to view it from that perspective.

[With Clusters]

One thing to consider also is the unit size in SC. While there may very well have been "green" units that were given extensive training (Hitler Youth divisions, untested airborn divisions, etc.), I seriously doubt this was ever done for the creation of an entire corps or army, which is the unit scale in "standard" SC.

Whether it is worth the effort to simulate the inclusion of such a unit (division size or smaller) into its larger parent formation (corps or army) is certainly debatable.

At the scale of SCET, I would think probably not. But I could see how such a feature might be interesting to someone who wanted to use the SC editor to mod a game based on smaller scale units.

[SeaMonkey]

Oh...and Night...I never left public school...that will only happen when I slip the earthly bonds of this existence.

[Victor Reijkersz]

Originally posted by Victor Reijkersz:

Morale as extra variable as providing a positive modifier on combat strength is pointless, since it could just as well be modled through experience. Only point of adding morale is if it for example influences the retreat-behaviour of a unit.

I repeat my point. Though i don't know if troops can retreat in SC2, if they can, adding morale could be an option as an influencer of their retreat trigger.

Because as we all know the Youth division fought well, but also fought itself to dead, as many Japanese troops did too. Morale doesn't let you fight more efficiently, it enables you to take more casualties in defence (to the last bullet/no retreat) or in attack (kamikazi, charge).

[General Bolt]

Originally posted by With Clusters:

One thing to consider also is the unit size in SC. While there may very well have been "green" units that were given extensive training (Hitler Youth divisions, untested airborn divisions, etc.), I seriously doubt this was ever done for the creation of an entire corps or army, which is the unit scale in "standard" SC.

Whether it is worth the effort to simulate the inclusion of such a unit (division size or smaller) into its larger parent formation (corps or army) is certainly debatable.

I understand now "not at this scale." I said I was a rook at this game.