Elie Wiesel on Oprah - Editorial on miscellany . . .

[JerseyJohn]

Chris G.

It's inconceivable that anyone alive today can deny the Holocaust happened. Not one nazi defender at Nuremburg denied it! NOT ONE!

Then again, if you didn't understand the quote about the flames being the description of cremation rather than execution you may actually be incapable of understanding anything.

For my part I've known concentration camp survivors -- MANY OF THEM -- complete with tatoos furnished by the SS. They were old people when I knew them, several spent their late youth and early adulthood in those worse than hellholes. I can only repeat what one of them said to an idiot who told her that it never happened. She showed him her tatoo and some scars and said, "Please, sonny, leave me alone. Believe what you want. Idiots always do anyway."

Some others of us weren't as nice. We convinced him to never come around again.

BTW, another old man I knew served in Russia with the Waffen SS. We played chess and he was like an old uncle. During the last year I knew him he showed me photos he took, including some of the death squads that roamed around doing their ethnic cleansing before the term existed. Too bad you can't talk with him. I can see him smiling and laughing and telling you how wrong you are, unfortunately he saw it all as having been something great. I loved that old guy but that part of him was malignant, and evil. But at least he wasn't some moron who went around claiming millions of murders never happened.

[Desert Dave]

Some others of us weren't as nice. We convinced him to never come around again.

Thank you, John,

For the "true-to-life" reminders.

I can well imagine, knowing you as I do,

That particular "convincing"

Was quick, effective, necessary

And quite decisive.

Good to know there are ENOUGH

Still out there

Who will simply not take ANY more

Of this old, or

Neo brute, infantile

And sick-in-head belligerence.

You and me, and my brother too,

Alone, sans any gangsters, on Harley,

Them there American three,

Just now, it's... enough. :cool:

[dicedtomato]

Don't argue with Chris G. That's what these mental defectives crave. They want intelligent people to debate them. Because if there is a debate, then this must mean that the Holocaust Deniers have an argument, as if rational people could really disagree that the Holocaust ever happened.

Chris G is a moron. The people in his life treat him like he's a moron. Deep down, he knows himself that he's a moron. Treating him with intellectual legitimacy is like awarding a college degree to a chimp. Let Chris eat bananas and scratch himself.

DT

[Kuniworth]

Yes I had the pleasure to speak to Kazimier Smolens last year(the founder of the Auschwitz museum and holocaust survivor) of his 5 years in Auschwitz 1.

Those stupid remarks and quotes by you Chris G is far too much that I can swallow. Chris G restrain yourself.

[ May 27, 2006, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: Kuniworth ]

[Desert Dave]

Don't argue with Chris G. That's what these mental defectives crave.

Good point DT.

Thank you,

I am done with this cretin... for now.

Until the next needs be dealt with,

In real life,

And NOT on some "safe-at-a-distance"

War game Forum.

Then I will indeed stand up,

Count down,

Whistle very tunelessly,

And allow them ever-growing

Vermins 'er ONE chance

To get out of my sight.

[JerseyJohn]

Well said, DD, both times. Agreed, as long as there's those few who show these luneatics the exit --

Speaking of which, in that long ago time and place where his cousin was dealt with, it was impossible to deal with him alone. Most of us were trying to prevent his murder. One of the guys was almost comical, a huge Italian who, unconcerned with the historical events, wanted to kill him because, "It ain't right what you said to Mrs. Katz."

Kaptain Kuni

Kudos my friend.

Diced Tomatoes,

A bit strong but I'm very inclined to agree with you.

Here's hoping Chris sees the error of his ways, perhaps even reads a real history book or two so he'll know better.

Anyway, I hope I'll be able to follow your wise advice to ignore him.

ChrisG,

Why not read a book or two on the trial of Adolf Eichmann, his own testimony verifies the Holocaust!

Why not read some books about how the nazis used to gun down entire groups of Poles for no reason whatever. They did the same in Russia and Yugoslavia. The Jews weren't the only ones singled out for extermination.

-- If you're sincerely a racist nazi it's one thing. I can accept that. What I can't accept is someone claiming these things never happened. That the photos are faked and millions of people including American and British camp liberators have been lying about it or, even more ludicrous, erected the camps as part of a great conspiracy and filled them with Germans killed in the bombings. I hope you fall short of that kind of stupidity, but somehow I'd imaginge you believe that too.

[janbo]

Look beneath the surface.

[ May 28, 2006, 07:38 AM: Message edited by: janbo ]

[JerseyJohn]

I have to admit, Janbo, I kind of hate that kind of humor. At times I say someone is being moronic, whatever, and that isn't right either.

A few times in my life I've had to live in the same building with people who's minds don't function very well and, honestly, there's nothing amusing in watching them.

Aside from which, this was a discussion and not an argument. And not retarded in the least as it centered upon an important issue. Almost as important as not laughing at retarded people.

[jon_j_rambo]

I FIND MAKING FUN OF SPECIAL OLYMPICS DISGUSTING. IT IS SICK. IT'S WRONG. COMMON SENSE AND THE O.T. TELLS US THAT.

[jon_j_rambo]

I agree with Sir Jersey & Desert Dave all the way here.

[janbo]

You say this isn't an argument at all, fine. I just happen to disagree here. Maybe it's due to differences between our native languages and their definitions of an argument and a discussion, or then we just might be perceiving the whole thing differently.

With the picture, though, I was just remarking the paradox of arguing the idea of holocaust never existing. People die but ideas are immortal. As long as there's people, there is ideas. Unfortunately, including stupid ideas. This subject being a premium example.

Now, one might be wondering what does all this idea-babble have anything to do with the picture. Don't worry, I'll tell you.

The boy represents the minority of public opinion, this time the denial of the holocaust. He isn't alone with his thoughts as his competitor's number 197 indicates. The men behind him, the majority, don't agree and rather turn their heads away. Even still, the boy enjoys and continues his journey on a track leading nowhere. The track, of course, is the argument.

Far-fetched? Possibly. I just hope this illustrates one of the points I wanted to bring about; the power of pictures. Especially their symbolical meaning and not just what you see on top. They're a way of communication with extreme force. We don't have to go far back in time when we come across with a good example, the Mohammed pictures.

But, John, you're right "retarded" people shouldn't be laughed at. And I assure you, I've never laughed at such people. In fact, I've known a couple, from which especially one was a very nice fellow, and funny too. Maybe, and not just maybe, I went a bit over board with that particular image. As a picture it was pretty much perfect for what I was looking for, but the text, well, it wasn't so nice. Sometimes in life you just have to make compromises.

I do want to apologize, though, if I somehow hurt somebody's feelings with the image. Now it's time to hit the sack.

[JerseyJohn]

janbo,

And you shouldn't apologize. I realize how you meant that and no, I didn't think you were the kind of person who'd stick a finger out and laugh at a cripple or a retarded person or someone with Alztheimers.

But the caption on that photo does come off that way. What I wrote was a knee-jerk reaction. What I wished I'd written later was,

Janbo, that sort of thing is beneath you.

So, if anyone owes an apology it's me, not for being angry at the photo, I still think that's horrible, but for the way I commented on it. So, please accept my apology.

As for the current discussion or argument or whatever we choose to call it, I still happen to feel it's an important issue. There are people I come into contact with all the time who make remarks either insinuating that it never happened, or that it's been exaggerated.

What happened in Europe was neither the first nor the last case of mass genocide. It's recurred several times, in massive fashion, during the second half of the twentieth century and is always lurking around the corner.

So, lest we forget, or stop fighting those who deny it ever happened, we risk seeing it happen again. Maybe to some group we happen to belong to.

-- I'm a huge advocate of Freedom of Speech and all that goes along with it. But, to me and most other people, that doesn't mean condoning remarks that single out a particular group for either humiliation, insult or any other form of abuse. Sorry, but when I see something like Holohaox being thrown around my fires get stoked.

Brother Rambo,

Appreciate the support and thoroughly respect your stance on this, which we share from start to finish.

[LampCord]

Originally posted by Jim Mason:

Any comparison with Abu Ghraib is questionable,

Questonable!!!!

Are you fricken kidding me???

To even mention Abu Ghraib in the same breath as the Holocaust is an outrage.

Just shows what how moral relativism has destroyed any kind of understanding of history or the true nature of evil.

[Guest Mike]

Of course yuo can compare AG with the Holocaust - you can compare anythign with anythign else.

It is hte conclusions that you make from such a comparison that are important, not the fact ofhte comparison.

Or did you mean EQUATE the 2? Now that would clearly be a questionable conclusion from the comparison.

But there are aspects that are similar - the propensity of people in power to lord it over the incarcerated, the systematic application of humiliation and degradation,m individual cruelty by guards - all are similar in quality if obviously not in quantity.

And of course there are many things that have no similarity - the scale, the death rate, the intention to exterminate, the purpose built death machinery - such things are obviously missing from AG.

So you see it is easy to compare, and even to make obvious conclusions.

[jon_j_rambo]

@Janbo --- You're a piece of crap. Making fun of mentally/physical challenged people is wrong.

[LampCord]

Originally posted by Stalin's Organist:

Of course yuo can compare AG with the Holocaust - you can compare anythign with anythign else.

It is hte conclusions that you make from such a comparison that are important, not the fact ofhte comparison.

Or did you mean EQUATE the 2? Now that would clearly be a questionable conclusion from the comparison.

But there are aspects that are similar - the propensity of people in power to lord it over the incarcerated, the systematic application of humiliation and degradation,m individual cruelty by guards - all are similar in quality if obviously not in quantity.

And of course there are many things that have no similarity - the scale, the death rate, the intention to exterminate, the purpose built death machinery - such things are obviously missing from AG.

So you see it is easy to compare, and even to make obvious conclusions.

The way I it was written implied equating the two to me.

Let's not argue about semantics. Comparing AG with the Holocaust is like comapring the Invasion of Grenada with the Russian Front.

[jon_j_rambo]

Fraternity hazing had harsher stuff than AG. (minus that gay stuff though, that was seriously messed up by that nasty reserve chick)

[Chris G]

Lol,, u r bunch of brainwashed peaces of crap. The funny thing 4 me (but I guess not 4 u) is that you would all salute Hitler in 1939(except d jews in this forum that want u all 2 be exterminated). Ops sry d jews r so loving –as they show in Palestina .. Lol

[Chris G]

JerseyJohn

Come 2 my place, and I’ll show u that u want deny anything WITH UR BALLS IN ONE PEACE.

After I destroy them you will admit to like EVERYTHING?

If not, mail me at chris.g@tjohoo.se

[jon_j_rambo]

Getting weirder.

[JerseyJohn]

ChrisG,

I must be missing something in your message. Let's see, I'm supposed to go to your place and let you cut my balls off? If not, I should e-mail you?

Anyway, come over to mine and Kuniworth's place instead.

< SC Buntaland >

You can wander the landscape denying whatever you'd like and nobody will make a move on your testicals -- sounds safer than your place already. Instead we'll debate the issue in a civilized manner. Not that there's anything to debate, I've known the victims and I've known the victimizers and they both told me about it, but at least we can endure your views in a non-commercial setting.

[jon_j_rambo]

Yeah, send this kid over to Buntaland.

[Jim Mason]

I'm sorry for any misunderstanding but I thought it was pretty obvious - It's a "questionable" comparison.

By "questionable" I mean that if you were to make that comparison, you should be questioned about it. But as Stalin's Organist said so well, there are things in common with the two.

Furthermore, the context of the statement was in the moronic/evil behavior of those who were there doing it (and taking pictures), not the end result (of which both are bad, but one obviously a magnitude of magnitudes worse.)

As to Chris G - I agree with what dicedtomato wrote completely. I propose that we would all be much better off if we just ignore him. There is no debate.

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Yeah, send this kid over to Buntaland.

Just what is this "Buntaland" and the "Buntas" you keep mentioning John?

[hellraiser]

OMG what's wrong with this forum these days?

This is a good example of an old saying: One idiot throws the stone into the pond and 100 wise men jump in the pond to search the stone ...