Question on Engineers: could they build Railroads?

[JonS]

Sorry, I didn't realise SC was purely a fantasy game. Crack on. Enjoy.

What if sharks with frickin' lasers on their heads land from Mars? I want sharks. Sharks with frickin' lasers on their heads. It's possible, therefore I want them. QED.

[ December 11, 2007, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Liam]

Okay Okay, we can see that airlifting a HUGE HUGE Corps might not be feesible in the early years of the war. Though as the war progressed the capability existed. The British had Thousands of Bombers didn't they? Or am I forgetting the mass production they underwent to Smash the Reich into Utter Submission!!!

Also the Luftwaffe had TREMENDOUS airLUFT capacity they were going to drop a ton Gliders filled with men and Light Tanks-Vehicles all over the English CountrySide. It was that the Effort and the Mission was never undertaken. It is true what has been said where there is a will there is a way. Like the Dunkirk Makeshift Harbours then Evacuation. Following the D-Day LandBridges ferrying millions of various supplies troops vehicles to a small Beachhead to turn it into the liberation of France in a matter how long??? Unbelievable

However indeed the cost was not cheap. Though the Size and scale of SC2 could include such things. It would however have to be with extensive Cost as otherwise it would be just another gamey option.

SeaLion wouldn't dropped how many Germans on British Soil? That was 1940! How many troopers wouldn't caught British offguard using their own airfields? How many ports captured by Commandos to ferry in barges and such. Of course there are limitations on distance on any of this... I doubt that any WW2 Army aside from the American would have had the resources to do a Island hopping type situation like that of Pacific. The British may have been able to but their resources were tied up. The Japanese could do it but they also had a MASSIVE navy. Only the USA/Japan/UK had the Navy to do Massive joint Naval-Air Missions. All had very Large Airforces. The Germans were attempting the idea, but they got cold feet IMO and failed in the air. So all this is very hypothetical but feesible...

They however did small Air Missions all over the Map. Small Supply Missions. Probably something more doable for Campaigns. Now for supplying cut off units, cut off supply chokepoints.. Depends on the area of Europe, what time of year, and the amount of money or planes rather going into it. Plus the experience-technology of the nation doing this... It is believable if you throw enough Toilet Paper at the outhouse you'll get some in.. But perhaps at a cost beyond the value?

[Liam]

JonS how very insulting. Many Men thought that the Maginot Line was impregnable, and perhaps it was frontally. The fact no one ever truly tested the theory. Probably would've been costly though...

It is certainly down to earth to say it would be very very hard, but impossible? Really, the Operational feature already in SC2 is completely ahistoric. Moving 5,000 tanks in 2 weeks and 1 million men with a few hundred MPPs. Though it's done and usually if not intelligently at the cost of the game... Few can afford that sort of movement without dying. We attempt to simulate what was possible not actually attempt to recreate it

Though you feel strongly about what you feel. Perhaps you're partly right. Though it's not to be dismissed what else might be possible as the Germans went through the Ardenne and the Allies never imagined what Blitzkrieg was. That is History. We all want some level of realism but the option doesn't exist to attempt to have fun with some of those historical ideas used and or abandoned. Isn't that wrong? Perhaps we should see how disastrous a historical attempt at one of these ideas might've been with historical fact rather than put down the idea?

Originally posted by JonS:

Sorry, I didn't realise SC was purely a fantasy game. Crack on. Enjoy.

What if sharks with frickin' lasers on their heads land from Mars? I want sharks. Sharks with frickin' lasers on their heads. It's possible, therefore I want them. QED.

[JonS]

Originally posted by Liam:

Okay Okay, we can see that airlifting a HUGE HUGE Corps might not be feesible in the early years of the war. Though as the war progressed the capability existed.

Good grief - just how stupid are you? These are not "HUGE HUGE" corps. They are utterly standard and normal. The Canadians had 2, the British had 4, the US had about 13, and the French had another 2. All roughly the same size.

And this is at the end of the war, 1945, not the beginning. The best position any military was in to be able to do this. But no one can or will explain how all the artillery, vehicles, tanks, armoured cars, etc are going to be moved. I've given you the men and the smallish equipment. All I want is someone to explain all the stuff that will not fit into an aircraft without recourse to handwaving.

I swear, it's more productive talking to a door frame than to you lot of know-nothing wannabes, with your uber-collection of commando comics, slapping each other on the back and telling each other how smart you are. The door frame is smarter than you lot.

"82nd Airborne Brigade"? Give me a frigging break. Come back when you've read a book with more pages than it has pictures, kid.

[ December 12, 2007, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Liam]

I was not going to honor this with a response, but I never refered to the 82nd as a Brigade, it's a division. Which can mean up to 10,000 men. the 101st I believe is the brigade attached to the 82nd... And yes I have driven by the Museum a 100 times and done business there for it... and Yes the Germans did have tanks in Gliders ready to goto England. Are you deaf or blind? Or Both

I.E. German gliders were of similar capacity. The Hamilcars, on the other hand, were designed to carry heavier loads, such as armoured Bren-carriers or Tetrarch tanks. The other advantage of the glider over the parachute, apart from the ability to carry heavier equipments, was that 15 or so men landed together, whereas 15 paratroopers could expect to be wildly dispersed after a drop.

In the summer of 1943 Kenney used airlift to establish an Allied air base near Marlininan. After flying in all of the materials and equipment needed to build the base - using two and half ton trucks that had been sawn in half for C-47 transport - Kenney used the airfield at Tsili-Tsili as a staging base for an airborne attack on Nadzab. After a fierce strafing attack by B-25s, paratroops of the 503rd parachute infantry jumped over the airfield and took it within minutes. With Nadzab in Allied hands, General MacArthur launched a pincher attack on Lae that is credited with shortening the war in the Pacific by several months. Airlift continued to play a major role in the Southwest Pacific campaign for the remainder of the war. Fifth Air Force transports airlifted combat troops into new areas of operations, kept them supplied as they secured the area, and provided logistical support for the air units in the region.

Hmmm enough equipment to build a Base? Weird Huh? I guess they just couldnt' do that nor transport such big trucks?

--

http://members.aol.com/samblu82/wwII.html

http://www.geocities.com/heythatslife/airborne.html

So how'd they carry these things, DUhhhhhhh I dunno... In their ass... With 400 or 500 Gliders I suppose... That's enough to equal a very small unit. They didn't parachute in 88 Inch Guns but they probably could of... It's just not practical.

Though consider the fact they could put up a few thousand Gliders, that's probably equal to a pretty small Unit THAT COULD capture an airfield, that could then land in the heavier troop carriers with weapondry. It's expensive transport, not very practical for heavier weapondry but limit the Corps to 1 AT 2 IW.. Not like Rifles are hard to carry Duhhhhh? Idiot

P.S. Corps in SC2 are abstract, we do have ParaUnits and Commandos now in SC2 which would be more Divisional rather than Corpsized. Some the Corps in SC2 represent Garrison Sized units that may not be so true for the beginning of the war with the low techs but as it progresses and the tech does the units not upgraded are usually never fielded and often are posted as a Garrison Division all game. So lifting a Division is possible and happened in WW2. And there were many different sizes and shaped not all WW2 units carried heavy equipment. Specialized units for instance. I.E. Garrison, Para Units, Commandos, etc...

Airlifting supplies happened and was a failure often but it happened.. Deny it? LOL read a real WW2 history book. From Stalingrad to Bastogne

Originally posted by JonS:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Liam:

Okay Okay, we can see that airlifting a HUGE HUGE Corps might not be feesible in the early years of the war. Though as the war progressed the capability existed.

Good grief - just how stupid are you? These are not "HUGE HUGE" corps. They are utterly standard and normal. The Canadians had 2, the British had 4, the US had about 13, and the French had another 2. All roughly the same size.

And this is at the end of the war, 1945, not the beginning. The best position any military was in to be able to do this. But no one can or will explain how all the artillery, vehicles, tanks, armoured cars, etc are going to be moved. I've given you the men and the smallish equipment. All I want is someone to explain all the stuff that will not fit into an aircraft without recourse to handwaving.

I swear, it's more productive talking to a door frame than to you lot of know-nothing wannabes, with your uber-collection of commando comics, slapping each other on the back and telling each other how smart you are. The door frame is smarter than you lot.

"82nd Airborne Brigade"? Give me a frigging break. Come back when you've read a book with more pages than it has pictures, kid. </font>

[Lars]

Sorry guys, Jons is still correct on this.

To take just one item, the standard 4.5 artillery gun. Weighs 12,464 pounds.

Cargo capacity of a DC-3 is 8,500 pounds. At that's at minimum fuel weight.

Really doesn't matter how many DC-3's you have, now does it?

[Liam]

Lars I never argued a C-47 could carry a heavy Gun. In fact against it.. This is just an hotheaded debate. Jon should just add facts and drop it. He's insulting.

But he insisted on insulting despite that with no real facts presented as you have. Just opinion... Whether or not a real army or Tank could ever be haulled in WW2 was not debated by myself...Though some lighter versions of Artillery/Tanks/Men and equipment could easily have been haulled. As was supply drops discussed, but dismissed by Jon. Did not 10,000 C-47s faciliate the The Normandy BeachHead? Or something like that... Not sure Anyway there is a lot we do not know.. Perhaps an idea like that could boost Supply to Brest/Caen to 6 or 7 rather than 5 the minimal

P.S. I apologize to Jon if he takes my words personally but that's my way. Also I know for a fact if we played 100 games of SC he's be 0 and I'd be up a 100... And HOI or any other Wargame aside from Combat Mission too tactical for me!

[JonS]

Originally posted by Liam:

I was not going to honor this with a response, but I never refered to the 82nd as a Brigade, it's a division. Which can mean up to 10,000 men. the 101st I believe is the brigade attached to the 82nd...

You. Do. Not. Have. A. Clue.

[Lars]

Originally posted by Liam:

Lars I never argued a C-47 could carry a heavy Gun. In fact against it.. This is just an hotheaded debate. Jon should just add facts and drop it. He's insulting.

But he insisted on insulting despite that with no real facts presented as you have. Just opinion... Whether or not a real army or Tank could ever be haulled in WW2 was not debated by myself...Though some lighter versions of Artillery/Tanks/Men and equipment could easily have been haulled. As was supply drops discussed, but dismissed by Jon. Did not 10,000 C-47s faciliate the The Normandy BeachHead? Or something like that... Not sure Anyway there is a lot we do not know.. Perhaps an idea like that could boost Supply to Brest/Caen to 6 or 7 rather than 5 the minimal

P.S. I apologize to Jon if he takes my words personally but that's my way. Also I know for a fact if we played 100 games of SC he's be 0 and I'd be up a 100... And HOI or any other Wargame aside from Combat Mission too tactical for me!

Well, Jons is just not a people person.

The 4.5 was not a heavy gun. Just the standard issue. And a Corps would have a lot of them.

What you and others have described is the equivalent of hauling a Airborne Corps about, and we already have that. And in my opinion, they're overstrengthed as represented in game, but a lot of fun.

[FuChu]

I am not trying to take sides in any of the above discussions.

I just want to point out my posistion and hope it sways Mr Cater. I still would like to see engineers able to build railroads, airports and ports.

Not all campaigns need to be historically accurate and some people includeing myself like to dabble in the "what if" scenarios or just have fun trying things out to see what happens.

I can think of lots of ideas to try useing these new ideas if Mr Cater decides to put them in. And I am certain lots of other players will think of things I have never thought of.

Downloading and playing and having fun trying all the different maps players think up is one of the reasons that makes SC2 and its versions so neat in my opinion. And adding any of these ideas will only make SC2 and SC2WAW better.

Thank you

[Guest Mike]

IIRC aren't the 82nd and 101st both training units for the red Berets?

Guns can be dismantled down for transport when required.

the 4,5" gun was quite uncommon in relative terms - for the British you'd be looking at 5.5" and maybe 7.2" guns. For the US probably the M114 155mm howitzer.

the 4.5" gun and breach together weighed about 4200 lb.....plenty light enough to be a C47 load, with a few thousand lbs spare capacity.

the 5.5" weighed 4120 lb...room for 2 on each C47.....

The 7.2" stretches it a bit with 8170lb for the Mk I-IV, and is serious overlaod for the Mk V onwards at 11,100 lb....but by the end of the war you can use C-54's with 20,000 lb capacity - they were actually the primary long range lifters for the US military....C-47's were pretty much for short range and airborne ops.

[ December 12, 2007, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: Stalin's Organist ]

[arado234]

I dont think its a matter of if its possible(The Allies with their industrial might could have built the planes and equipment to do it if they really wanted to)its more of a matter would it be worth the cost in material the training the planning involved and the overall time to attempt such a thing.Then there is the threat if it failed and losses that would have incurred.

It was never attempted to the extent JonS is talking about probably because it wouldnt have been practical not because its impossible.

Should it be included in this game as an option,I dont know.If it is, there would have to be someway of simulating the overall effort involved in such an undertaking.

[Liam]

The Germans made everything possible, they were the most highly insane organized nation of WW2. They didn't even have ballbearings at one point, they found substitutes

no matter what... anything is possible and it is true though however unlikely open your mind. Whether worthwhile for the game, that's whole other story

Originally posted by arado234:

I dont think its a matter of if its possible(The Allies with their industrial might could have built the planes and equipment to do it if they really wanted to)its more of a matter would it be worth the cost in material the training the planning involved and the overall time to attempt such a thing.Then there is the threat if it failed and losses that would have incurred.

It was never attempted to the extent JonS is talking about probably because it wouldnt have been practical not because its impossible.

Should it be included in this game as an option,I dont know.If it is, there would have to be someway of simulating the overall effort involved in such an undertaking.

[Scook]

Here are a couple links I found, both with US air transport capability:

http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/Publications/fulltext/airlift_&_airborne_ops_wwii.pdf

http://www.315aw.afrc.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=3818

The 1st is a long and rather interesting read. Both articles show that the thought process involved airborne operations to include only paratroop and glider drops. If you were to move large formations that would entail taking planes off of supply detail, away from the paratroopers, and from moving men to be used as replacements for units. That would be highly unreasonable.

We do have some troops who can airlift, the airborn. I think we should leave it at that. I do have some books that do have Germany airlifting some units at a regimental level along the Black Sea, but their equiptment and staffing were still sent by train, so they were essentially warm bodies milling around along the coast. This proved to be fatal later in the war when Lufftewaffe divisions were flown into the Crimea, and were promptly overrun in 1943-44. If I can find those books, I will give titles.

For modern perspective, the US uses two divisions on ready for RDF deployment, that can be anywhere in the world within 24 hours. However, no heavy equiptment goes with them, so it's men, rifles, and guts as they dig in, set up landing zones, and get their gear as fast as possible. It MIGHT be possible to move a corps size unit now within the scale of SC2, but it's expensive and many things don't happen when this airlift occurs.