Research catagories....What we know so far.

[KDG]

Based off some photos, as well as info gathered, this is what we see for research so far.

- Infantry Weapons

- Anti-Tank Weapons

- Heavy Tanks

- Mechanization

- Anti Aircraft Radar

- Long Range Aircraft

- Jets

- Heavy Bombers

- Naval Bombers

- Anti-Submarine Warfare

- Advanced Subs

- Gun Laying Radar

- Strategic Rockets

- Intelligence

- Amphibious Warfare

- Infrastructure

- Production Technology

1) Infantry weapons

Affects soft attack and soft defense, while increasing the cost of the unit. Both attack and defense are increased by 1 for each level of research.

2) Anti-tank weapons

Affects tank attack and tank defense, while increasing the cost of the unit. Both attack and defense are increased by 1 for each level of research.

3) Heavy Tanks

Will increase tanks's Tank Attack, Soft Attack and Soft Defense.

4) Mechanization

Increases Action points. Increased by one for each level of research.

5) Anti Aircraft Radar

6) Long Range Aircraft

7) Jets

8) Heavy Bombers

9) Naval Bombers

Increases naval attack for both Carriers and Air Fleets. Increased by one for each level.

10) Infrastructure

Effects your Operational moves, most likely reducing the cost.

Misc:

The max research level, costs, etc. for the different catagories can be modified using the editor.

Research not in the Game:

Atom Bomb

[ June 14, 2004, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: KDG ]

[pzgndr]

Don't be to concerned about the max levels you see. These can all be edited. So some things like L/R Aircraft could now be limited to L3 or L4 to prevent some of the blowout strategies we've seen in SC1. Lots of possibilities now.

[ May 20, 2004, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: pzgndr ]

[KDG]

Any hints on these research surprises? What carry overs will we have? Any change to the way chits are purchased, used up, pct chances for increases, etc?

Thanks.

[pzgndr]

All of the current tech areas remain. We're working out some details for a few new ones besides those already identified above. Like infrastructure, amphibious warfare, and intelligence. The key is to get them to fit in with everything else, including the new features like amphibious transports, diplomacy, etc. They need to make sense.

Research itself won't change much, like the 5-4-3-2-1 stuff. But chit cost will be editable, so some techs may have 100 MPP chits while others have 300 MPP chits. Instead of a 10 chit max, there would be an MPP max. You could keep the current 2500 limit, or make it higher. And the fact that max tech levels can be capped at 0-5, and max number of chits assignable per area limited to 0-5, all means a lot of flexibility with research.

The research changes will add a lot to the game without adding any more complexity to the current system. Maybe a few more tough decisions to make with all these extra choices, but nothing a player can't handle. Once everything is set up and defined in the editor, the game should play essentially the same as it does now.

[KDG]

From Desert Dave

"Atom bomb research will NOT be included.

Thus far, there are eighteen (18) different categories, and this is definitely not one of them.

On the bright side...

You can research Infrastructure for instance, which will have some certain effect on your Op Moves.

Kind of like keeping your road & rail in good working order.

I have been campaigning for this latter category for some long, dedicated time, and I am very glad that Hubert has decided to include it!"

[Edwin P.]

Infrastructure seems to me to be most important for the Axis as it would allow Germany to respond to threats on both fronts.

[KDG]

Bump

[ev]

Have you considered a communications tech?

Improving radio communications was critical in the develpment of Blitzkrieg, on several counts:

One of Guderians most improtant contributions is that he put the tank together with the radio. Guderian set rules for the use of radio communications that allowed tank units to communicate quickly and effectively without all the chatter clogging the available bandwidth. Guderian also set up ways for the tank commanders to communicate quickly with supporting infantry, artillery, engineers, and even air units.

One the far opposite extreme were the Russians, which had superior tanks with no radios. When Germany invaded Russia, only the lead tank in each platoon had a radio. Tankers communicated with each other with flag signals - which was almost suicidal in the midst of battle. As a result, the best Russian Tank commander had no choice but to let things run their course after the battle started.

Communication failures were common and costly through WWII. During operation market garden, british paratroopers suffered greatly because of their radios did not work...

[ev]

...more on my previous post.

I would have Communications Tech affect units in several ways:

Increase combat readines or some other combat multiplier of land units.

Increase the combat contribution that an HQ provides to units under its command - higher combat readiness or the like.

Increase the number of units that may be attached to an HQ (starting with only 3 at level 0 and increasing all the way up to 8 at level 5).

Any other idea?

[Shaka of Carthage]

While radios were an important component, I believe what you really are addressing is Command, Control and Communications. Rename your proposed tech as C3I, add some of the suggestions people have been talking about when they ask for a reconnaisance or intelligence tech and you may have something worth pursuing.

[Edwin P.]

Originally posted by pzgndr:

Remember that research, like everything else in this game, is a gross abstraction. Nothing is a perfect simulation of reality. You have to think of research as something more than just scientists in lab coats working on some new wonder weapon.

Tech advances represent overall improvements in unit capability. Take Advanced Subs for Germany as an example. Type VII and IX U-boats were already designed by 1939, so it's not like you're waiting for them to be discovered during a game and then poof! you get to upgrade your fleet. But there were other factors involved with sub improvements. Torpedoes, operating and maintenance experience, snorkles, wolfpack doctrine, etc. Chits are just an abstract way for you as Supreme Commander in a grand straegy game to assign more priority and emphasis to certain tech areas, and gearing up the national industry to mass produce new improvements.

How can you quantify all this? That's hard. Some things are just beyond your personal control at this level and the randomness reflects that. And ensures replayability from game to game.

Back to the original question. Country specific research limits CAN be set in SC2 with the new editor. And country specific costs for different research areas also if you want to get really sophisticated. We'll probably have some reasonable limits established which may be more than 2500 MPP for countries like Germany and USA and maybe less for countries like Italy. And the 250 MPP cost per chit will probably be broken down into different standard costs like 300/200/100 MPP for different tech areas. Like 100 for infantry weapons, 200 for subs, and 300 for jets. Those are rough numbers but you get the idea.

Originally posted by pzgndr: The plan for mech research is to improve the AP of infantry Corps and Army units only. With like a hefty 20% cost increase per level. Most countries will probably start with historical levels. Players probably won't want to push for more mechanization because of the cost, but it's an option. If you do research and get a tech advance, you can upgrade some rather than all units. Depending on your MPPs you will be able to afford all this or not. But it will be your choice.

Originally posted by pzgndr:

A couple of things will be a bit different in SC2. First, tech advances will not be automatic. You'll have to select a unit and CHOOSE what upgrades to give, and probably be able to reinforce it at the same time. When I say choose, we're talking total choice. Say you got tech advances in both jets and L/R. You can upgrade jets only, L/R only, or both, for any or all AFs. That's flexibility!

Second, upgrades and reinforcements probably will not be restricted to friendly cities, but there will be some reduction of max reinforcement level depending on the number of adjacent enemy units. We already see that now with surrounded units, but this is being expanded for all units. So a unit on the line adjacent to 2-3 enemy units may only reinforce to 7 or 8. That's the basic idea. You'd now have to withdraw the unit to give it full reinforcements, or to give it elite reinforcements up to strength 15.

This should be VERY interesting in practice. How many stalemate situations result when the defender simply reinforces up to full strength each turn? Now we're likely to see more worn out units on both sides and some real advantage to pulling units off the line for rest and refit. And the ability to truly customize your forces and decide who gets upgrades and when will no doubt bedazzle your opponent with FoW on and you truly surprise him with an elite super-unit blazing out of the shadows.

[ May 05, 2004, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[ev]

Originally posted by Shaka of Carthage:

While radios were an important component, I believe what you really are addressing is Command, Control and Communications. Rename your proposed tech as C3I, add some of the suggestions people have been talking about when they ask for a reconnaisance or intelligence tech and you may have something worth pursuing.

Yes Shaka ... Brought up the radio issue because it sounds more like tech. But, C3 is really what I meant

[Edwin P.]

Originally posted by pzgndr:

Correct. AT tech will represent the tank destroyers and other AT weapons to increase a unit's TA/TD values, while the new Infantry Weapons tech will represent all the other "stuff" to increase a unit's SA/SD values. Heavy Tanks tech, by comparison (or contrast), will increase ALL of these values with the single tech. Hubert's idea here is that the Tank Group is the dominant unit and and the tech to beat. Tanks seem to lose some effectiveness in SC1 by the end of the game and this is an adjustment to hopefully improve things.

1) Infantry weapons -Affects SA/SD (soft attack/soft defense)

2) Anti-tank weapons - Affects TA/TD (tank attack and tank defense)

3) Mechanization - Affects APs for Armies and Corps (APs are action points and are used for movement)

4) Naval Bombardment

5) Infrastructure

6) Heavy Tanks - Affects SA/SD & TA/TD

[ May 20, 2004, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[SeaMonkey]

Just rationalizing here, if Heavy Tanks represent larger caliber guns and heavier/more armor should we expect possibly a little upgrade in AD and ND when we acquire the higher tech levels, say 4 and 5?

[Roosevelt45]

"Atom bomb research will NOT be included.

[KDG]

From Hubert:

I thought about it some more and came up with the following tech areas:

- Infantry Weapons

- Anti-Tank Weapons

- Heavy Tanks

- Mechanization

- Anti Aircraft Radar

- Long Range Aircraft

- Jets

- Heavy Bombers

- Naval Bombers

- Anti-Submarine Warfare

- Advanced Subs

- Gun Laying Radar

- Strategic Rockets

- Intelligence

- Amphibious Warfare

- Infrastructure

- Production Technology

Dave brought up a good point for Naval Bombers and it should play out well for any Pacific campaigns. After thinking about it some more I think the counter balance will be for the opposing player to provide sufficient air cover to prevent the naval bombers from getting/hitting their targets, i.e. carriers, or land based AF [air fleets]. I think this will work out well actually.

I’ve also gone with the idea of various level cost research items by basically allowing the cost of each research item to be editable.

What’s Editable (for each major country, for each research type):

- Current Research Level [0, 5]

- Max Research Level [0, 5]

- Current chits applied [0, 5]

- Max chits applicable [0, 5]

- Cost [0, 1000]

Also Editable:

- Production increment (%) [5, 25]

- Maximum MPP for research [0, 10000]

By setting the ’Maximum MPP’ = 0 for each major you effectively have a non-research game mod if that would be desirable.

[ev]

Originally posted by KDG:

From Hubert:

I thought about it some more and came up with the following tech areas:

- Infantry Weapons

- Anti-Tank Weapons

- Heavy Tanks

- Mechanization

- Anti Aircraft Radar

- Long Range Aircraft

- Jets

- Heavy Bombers

- Naval Bombers

- Anti-Submarine Warfare

- Advanced Subs

- Gun Laying Radar

- Strategic Rockets

- Intelligence

- Amphibious Warfare

- Infrastructure

- Production Technology

Dave brought up a good point for Naval Bombers...

Please include the following:

</font>

• C3 Tech (Command, Control and Communications) to improve combat multiplier of HQ's.</font>
• A tech to make Armored (Tank) Groups faster. Ideally, it could be a new tech that solely affects Armored Groups. But, it could be the same Mechanization Tech already cited above.</font>
• Anti Air Weapons Tech for Tanks and Infantry.</font>
• Tactical Air Combat Tech which would improve the effectivnes of air-to-ground attack and counterbalance Anti Air Weapons.</font>

[Moon]

Guys, just a quick side-remark - please keep in mind that what Hubert is posting in the DevDiary (where this quote is taken from) is anything but final! Some of those posts are weeks or even months old, and have changed at a later point (sometimes changed more than once). You will see what I mean as more updates are released in the coming days.

Martin

[KDG]

Days, did you say days? New updates coming soon.....

[Queipo de Llano]

C3I was a monumentally important aspect of all WWII combat operations. Another idea for implementing it would have the tech enable an increase in spotting range for one's units to simulate the interception of opposing signals traffic.

[SeaMonkey]

a bump for ev.

[ September 21, 2004, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: SeaMonkey ]

[Edwin P.]

Any further developments on how the intelligence tech will work?

[ September 21, 2004, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Edwin P.]

Also, why no Atomic Bomb Tech? It was a world changing result of WWII, although researching it should be so expensive and the results so uncertain that few would consider it.

Example:

Max Research Level (5)

Max chits applicable (1)

Cost (1000)

Allows construction of a new air unit that costs 1000 MPP to build once Tech Level 5 in this area is reached. Use of this unit permanently destroys a city tile along with any unit in that hex and the the unit making the attack.

Thus developing an Atomic Bomb costs you: 1000MPP to purchase one chit, that's the maximum number of chits you can invest in this area. Then you have to hope that your one chit investment reaches Tech level 5 before you can purchase a Stragic Bomber for your Atomic Bomb for another 1000MPP. To be more realistic you could also require that a player control the sole mine hex in Norway or a mine hex in the United States to allow the building of this unit (to reflect the need for heavy water).

[ September 21, 2004, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Retributar]

I agree Edwin P ...'Atomic Bomb Tech' should be included...as this game is for up to 1945 and beyond.

In a game like this, a player should be able to turn off the extra's if they do not wish to use them...but, they should not be excluded in any case!.

[Shaka of Carthage]

Let me tell you why I think having an Atomic Bomb option is a bad thing.

The only nation that has the resources to obtain a Atomic Bomb is the US. As I have mentioned before, Germanies research was for energy purposes, not weapons. So other than the US, no one else should have the option. Of course, all of you who believe Germany was able to build long range jet bombers and flying saucers will disagree with me.

To be able to have a realistic and playable Atomic weapon is not an easy thing to design. Its alot of work to do it right, otherwise, you end up with a nation that doesn't have to pursue winning the war, it can just wait until it gets the bomb.

If Mr H does want to add Atomic weapons, it should be something that happens in a future release, not the first one. There are more important things that need to be worked on to give us an enjoyable game.