Spain to easy to get to join axis

[david12345]

I have looked around the forum and am suprized that I see nothing concerning what I consider to be the biggest problem in the game. With SC-1, Spain generally stayed out of the war, but in

SC-2, the Germans seem to get Spain EVERY time. Just put 5 chits in there after France falls, and the Allies just don't have the money to stop them. Am I the only one that thinks this needs to be fixed?

[anoldman]

Part of the fun of the game is the 'what if' scenarios.

Are you stating that Spain should not join Axis because:

a) Thats not how it actually happened

Spain for historic reasons would never have joined

c) It so skews the game balance in axis favor as to make the game less fun

d) All of the above

Just curious as to the 'why?' behind your post.

--AOM

[BioWizard]

Againt a human player, most of them counter it with English diplo and, contrary to what you say, they have the money. Maybe with version 1.03/1.04, the new way to calculate diplomatic results by adding the percentage of Italy will for sure finally give Spain to Axis on the very long term to a very determined player but this will need more then 500 MPPs from Axis to the effort.

For my part, I prefer, as Allies, to pressure USA then prevent Spain. It is only 25 mpps more per chits and USA is worth a lot more then Spain and you can have them join this way in 1941!!!

[Scook]

Yep, cheaper to try and woo USA and let Spain go Axis. I like the extra Navy the US gets when Spain comes in also.

[david12345]

Thanx for the input.

To answer "Old Man", my problem is that it gives the Med. to England, which is not historical. Sure "what if" is cool, but this is too easy.

Many Multiplayers play with rules to hamper early invasion by Germans because we all know it is very difficult to hold England and Egypt against a decent player.

Now, if the Germans put 5 chits in Spain (I get mine in by March of 1940, then add one whenever one gets used) and Italy puts 5 chits in, the English, even with 5 chits are still in trouble. That 250MPP's could be used to save England and/or Egypt.

You have a point about the USA, however they will enter either way, I'm talking about automatic loss of Gibralter every game (at least so for for me). This is not historical and tilts a game that already favors the axis even further!

[Bromley]

Has anybody tried the BEF in Gibralter? Any better, or just a dead army?

[Scook]

You only have 5 supply in Gibralter, so an army doesn't last much longer than a corp. Now with getting half entrenchment immediatly, rotating fresh corps in works better, if the Axis don't bomb the port.

As for the other issues, you can hold Britain, and unless the Axis gets really lucky, you keep Spain out of the War.

1) With the current patch,bring the whole Royal Navy up to Britain. Except playing against a German who will lose quickly once USSR enters the game, you should be able to stop Sea Lion from happening, even with buying no units. Save the money for diplo in part 2.

2) Germany has a maximum of 25% in diplo, and Italy has a maximum of 9% (3 chits, 3% per chit). This will cost 400 MPP total. Britain has 25% diplo, and the cost for Spain will be 375 MPP, which will take 5-6 turns to get, so you can have 5 chits by January 1940. This will give the Axis a net of 9% per turn to get a Spain hit. That works out to be approximatly 1 hit every 11 turns (I am not going to use the formula to figure it out, just eyeballing it). If they get lucky, so be it. The upside to doing this is if Germany doesn't want Spain, any British hit drop Spain below the magic 40% marker, making Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria wait until war with The Soviet Union to start.

The biggest downside is giving up on the Med for 1940-41. Holding Gibralter open keeps the idea open to taking back Africa once everyone is on the war.

Hope this helps a bit more than the short answer.

ps. I think if you save Italian MPP and buy the airborne ASAP and Germany does the same, this can bypass naval superiority, but save that discussion for more esoteric strategies on taking Britain.

[Liam]

How about the Random "Franco Effect," Every few turns you might lose 10% of your Readiness with Spain because Franco is uncertian which is the winning side.. That or Force Conditions before Franco can be purchased? I.E. Vichy Must be Taken along with Vichy Algeria... Thus raising US war readiness even more.. Why would Spain join without getting pieces of the pie?? You're giving him MPPs not real estate the man wanted Real Estate

[jon_j_rambo]

Whatever with Spain. Just load up the tanks & go headcrack them with the sword.

[david12345]

Good advice, Scook, I may try that next time. However; you all but guarantee the loss of Egypt with your strategy, which is arguably worse than Spain going axis (you lose the convoy from Egypt, and get no extra American ships). This would also free up Italian units to go to Russia (or help pull a "Rambo" and headcrack Spain. I don't see how you can hold England without building units. Two German airborne, and amphibs that can move and land in one turn, makes it pretty dicey. Using the RAF to hit ports to preclude invasion is a questionable strategy due to the more powerful German air. With German air superiority, 3 subs, and, if you wait awile, 3 cruisers and the Bismark, the sea battle just may cripple the English navy. But as you said, this is off the point.

One fix I would consider would be to allow the USA to invest in Diplomacy early. Just because they were neutral, does not mean that they weren't active diplomatically.

[hellraiser]

Spain going Axis = total loss of the Med area; allies do not stand a chance down there, Gibraltar effect (when axsi controlled) is hampering supply big time, the same way malta ruin Axis' supply. If Axis bring a bomber unit in Africa, things are even worser.

Strategically wise, the control of the British Home Isle is far more important for me than holding North Africa - the easiest way to invade Europe is via the british springboard. Now that the Sealion before Barby rule has fallen (I guess), the allied player has a crucial decision to make - hold the island or attempt to hold NAfrica, diverting a lot of resources for this purpose thus risking the loss of the british home isle. Now, with Spain being Axis almost 100% of the time, holding Africa is difficult and even counterproductive. Think that holding the isle bears greater benefits besides being the easiest route for invasion later on: constant nuissance to French occupied territories, possibility to invade Norway or to disrupt the convoys. In this scenario, Allies have to protect Ireland because even as of 1.04, Axis' invasion of Ireland has no effect in respect to majors' war readiness thus it is still an Axis freebie. The consequences are catastrophic - Axis air and Navy will obliterate everything on the british isle and you imagine the rest.

[SeaMonkey]

This is a simple decision, hold the UK is a must for the Allies to have a chance.

I would be very interested in someone's experience that has won, from either an NA base or returned to the continent with the USA after the loss of the British Isles.

I guess there also exists the possibility of USSR beating Axis on its own, however remote it may be.

Anyone accomplished any of these this feats?

[Yogi]

Beyond just the problem of Spain joining the Axis too easily, I have found it at times to be of "questionable realism" when it does join. In several games I have had Spain join when the Axis is already clearly beaten. You have to believe that the Spain leader is an idiot as they join just in time to participate in what is an obvious hopless case scenario.

It is one thing for Spain to join a strong axis, it is another to join as the Russians and allies approach Berlin and Rome (or already have one or the other). I should add that I have not yet played beyond game patch 1.02. I avoided 1.03 after the bug was announced and have not yet been able to play 1.04.

[Scook]

I played a game vs. Rambo where I took back Britain in an unusual game. If you lose the home isle and can take it back, the UK is in much better shape than if you succesfully defend a SeaLion. The recaptued cities go back to level 10, and The captital in Africa means all cities down there are 8's or 10's, and you can build units in both Africa and Britain.

@David12345

It can be impossible to hold both Africa and Britain from someone with skill. I would rather hold Gibralter and Britain to keep the pressure on the Axis, and take back Africa '42-'43. I generally don't sell out all the way with Spain, just drop the % for Germany if she maxes chits down to 17% (roughly a 1 in 6 chance), and buy a corps with the other 100. I sometimes take the HQ, armor, Army, aircraft and corps from Afrca to Britain, and leave the minor by herself, as the cost of those units is greater than the 20 mpp's you get. Choices choices choices.

There is no real one way to do it. As Terif would say, know the game, and play your opponent. If you know what the opposition will do ahead of time, you are one step closer to winning.

[hellraiser]

With spain now almost sure Axis, it is impossible to hold gibraltar; spain axis means TOTAL Med control for Axis full stop. You can maybe inflict some losses or delay Axis in Egypt but the result should be the same in the end.

Of course, it depends on diplo hits i.e. luck - the later spain joins, the better for the allies and it is up to the allied player to decide whether to counter Spain with chits or spend them on other targets. Common probabilistic sense nevertheless place Spain in Axis camp

[david12345]

One thing you don't mention is that when Egypt and Gibralter fall, the axis does not have to use any forces in the Med. at all. Plus you have the Italian and Spanish fleets available to counter

D-Day. Unless the Russians are doing really well, I would think this means game over.

Scook, to abandon Egypt like that means the axis has alot more time do other nasty things. I would still fight in Egypt just to "play the clock".

What about my idea of allowing USA diplomacy from day one?

[Bromley]

I'm not certain, but I think 1.04 limits the diplo chits of Italy (and France).