Maginot Line Questions

[Edwin P.]

During Blashy's AAR he had the French abandon the Maginot line. In a recent game vs the AI at Experience +2 my French units manning the Maginot line were destroyed by an air land campaign.

I wonder if the Maginot line tiles, unlike other fortifications, should have a higher air defense rating.

Perhaps an air defense rating of 4 or 5?

The Maginot Line was a powerful line of defense which stretched from Switzerland to the Ardennes in the North, and from the Alps to the Mediterranean in the South. It was a vast, dynamic, state-of-the-art, ultra-modern defensive system. Most of its components were underground, where interconnecting tunnels stretched for kilometers, and where, beneath the earth, thousands of men slept, trained, watched, and waited for a war that never came.

Extending about 150 miles from Sedan in the west to beyond Wissembourg in the east, the Line bristled with some 50 large fortifications, each within cannon range of another. Buried 100 feet and more under hills and ridges, the impregnable complexes were manned by up to 1,000 troops who were transported between their elaborate barracks and heavily armed combat bunkers by trolleys. They contained everything that was needed to support life underground and were virtually impervious to enemy infiltration.

[ January 01, 2006, 06:19 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Liam]

Fortifications are not impervious to airpower, as big bunkerbusting bombs can be designed to destroy such things. However Fighters and Fighterbombers which are the staple SC shouldn't effect Fortifications one bit! Neither should they have such an impact on resources, cities, or ports. They should only effect other active units with varying power.

The Maginot was an expense that cost the French dearly. The German strategy to infiltrate it was to go around it as we now know and fill the hole in with all their mobile and fast moving units. They crushed the French in this manner. The Maginot would have been not impassable but as I recall in some films Airborne troops landed and did damage or sabotaged the Maginot fairly successfully during the French Conquest. Germans were able to do significant damage rendering it pretty useless.

The French were ill paid, and not all up to the task of fighting is what I also heard. They were not as well trained as their German Counterparts and had less a belief in their High Commands ability to guide them to victory. This is all reasons for the French and English Route... mismanagement, the French president at the time had tried to replace the French High Command Leader but failed as he had many friends in the Government. He was completely flawed in his views and incompetent.

The Maginot should've stretched right through Belgium? What say you...had we started the game in 1936 with the Austria and Rhineland absorption I would have built it up so no hole existed, wouldn't you have? Why wouldn't the Germans go through Belgium they went through 3 or 4 other neutrals.. and by 1940 Norway and Denmark to boot

[Mr.Dozer]

they believed the ardennes forest was impassable by tanks so they werent prepared when they got tricked. also diplomaticly they saw extending it not good :confused:

So the germans pretended to do the hole shliefen plan and allies thought that move forces into LC to help. but found out not to soon after they were going to get cut of by those tanks that were not suppose to be coming there.

Denmark Norway invasion is hilarious. hitler attacked on the 9th and was planned for a while. the British put mines in norwiegen sea on 8th so it looked like germany's response was fast. lol

This is in the book im reading that i got for christmas.

[JerseyJohn]

The Maginot Line was part of a mutual defense agreement between France and Belgium.

The French part was, in fact, supposed to extend up to Luxembourg with the Ardennes receiving less extensive fortifications, mainly to cover the few narrow roads that passed through the otherwise very difficult terrain. The southern extreme of Maginot fortifications ran along the Franco-Italian border and, coupled with the rough terrain there, were all but impregnable, as Italy was to find out in 1940.

As part of the pact Belgium built it's own fortifications along the German border and the idea was to send several French armies into that country at the outbreak of war to be joined by the BEF, offloading in Antwerp. There should have been more than ample time for the Anglo-French-Belgium forces to establish strong positions behind the major rivers along with a large reserve.

This idea was scrapped in 1936 when Belgium cancelled it's defense treaty with France.

French troops occupied parts of the Maginor Line after the Second World War and it wasn't fully abandoned till the early sixties.

I think the people who call it a waste of resources, including army officers, are totally wrong. All other things being equal, Germany was a larger and more powerful country than France. The French couldn't hope to defeat them on their own, so they fortified their border. The fortifications were never intended to stand alone nor were they thought of as impregnable. The original planners saw them as being supported by troops in the field to counter German engineers. Strategically, the goal was to force Germany into chanelling their attack through the Low Countries, where presumably they'd be stopped by the armies of several nations. So, in that sense they succeeded. What failed was the ability of those nations to work together and put up a strong defense.

On the German part, the first plan was indeed to repeat the Schlieffen Plan, only this time totally in the spirit of it's original 1880s form. That idea was changed when a storch aircraft crashed in what was still neutral Belgium during the Sitzkrieg winter. The British and French thought it had fallen into their hands as a deliberate attempt at misinformation. But the Germans didn't realize that and immediately set to work on an alternative.

Manstein's Ardennes plan is seen now as a brilliant and daring stroke, but the German commanders involved were a bit amazed that they were able to pull it off. For one thing all of their troops were packed together in a long narrow line going all the way back into Germany. They had almost no air cover because the Luftwaffe was totally committed to covering the invasions further north in Belgium and Holland. Guderian wrote later that a few well placed bombs would have closed the roads long enough for the French to reinforce Sedan and prevent the breakthrough from getting out of the woods.

[Edwin P.]

JerseyJohn, thanks for the detailed background on the Maginot line.

I agree, the Maginot line did what it was intended to do. Being too strong for the German Army or Airforce to breach it forced them to go elsewhere. The French were not prepared for this alternative German strategy, kina reminds me of the 300 Spartans at Thermapolye where the Persian forces outflanked them by using an old goat trail.

One might think the French commanders never learned to apply the lessons of this historic battle which is a staple of history courses at European and American military acadamies where it is used to show:

1. How a small group of well-trained and well led soldiers can have an impact out of all proportions to their numbers.

2. Importance of good terrain and good strategy.

Because of its defensible terrain, the mountain pass of Thermopylae, the "Hot Gates," was chosen as the site of battle. At the time it consisted of a pass so narrow two chariots could barely move abreast—one side stood the sheer side of the mountain, while the other was a cliff drop into the sea. Along the path was a series of three "gates," and at the center gate a short wall was hastily erected by the Greek army to aid in their defense. It was here in the August of 480 BC that an army of some 7000 Greeks, led by 300 Spartans, stood to receive the full force of the Persian army, numbering perhaps some forty times its size........

...............

After the second day of fighting, a Greek, Ephialtes, defected to the Persians and informed Xerxes of a separate path through Thermopylae, which the Persians could use to outflank the Greeks. The pass was defended by the other 1000 Greeks, from Phocis, who had been placed there when the Greeks learned of the alternate route just before the battle, but they were not expecting to engage the Persians. Surprised by the Persian attack, the Phocians offered only a brief resistance before retreating higher up the mountain to regroup. Instead of pursuing them, however, the Persians simply advanced through the pass unopposed.

In all, about 1,000 - 2,000 Greeks died, while the Persians lost more than 20,000.

[ January 02, 2006, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[beginner's luck]

That story about the Persians were just on the Miltary channel just a day or two ago.EDWIN, I thought you were a history buff but now I know you get your info from the tv.For shame.

But I do agree that the Maginot line or for that matter the fortifications that the new engineers get to build should have a greater air defense. Or why build them if AF can just walk right though them.

[Retributar]

What is wrong with T.V. info?...it is generally good!.

I found out about 'Thermopylae' myself from a historically accurate Comic-Magazine many years ago...and i have never found it to be incorrect or misleading in any way,...it was illustrated as it actually took place!.

[JerseyJohn]

Plus, not everyone gets the Military Channel (I don't) or even the Histroy Channel (I do). So there's no point assuming things.

Anyway, I've seen inaccuracies in documentaries and I've also seen inaccuracies in books, so there's no point looking down on one or the other.

Though, generally, books are much more detailed and more reliable than even the best documentaries. Except, of course, many of them present interviews with the participants, and that's a great feature -- one of the best things about The World At War series. Presumably neither Leonidas nor Xerxes were available for the Termopolae interviews.

One interesting historical movie tidbit is they filmed 300 Spartans at the historical site and Zulu at Roarkes Drift, it's own historical site. In both cases this was a huge mistake because the terrain had changed since the events.

At Thermopolae the pass is much wider than it was 2500 or so years ago and at Roarkes Drift the famous farmhouse wall is significantly lower than it was in the 1870s. I have no idea why, in the second case at least, they didn't touch it up a bit with a bulldozer to show how the Redcoats were standing five feet or so higher than the attacking Zulus; in the movie they appear to be almost level.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by beginner's luck:

That story about the Persians were just on the Miltary channel just a day or two ago.EDWIN, I thought you were a history buff but now I know you get your info from the tv.For shame.

So now you try to miscredit Edwin AND the tv at the same time? A busy week for the Master of disaster no doubt.

[Edwin P.]

I don't get that channel but did read a good novel on the battle last year - Gates of Fire, and I am a sucker for battles where a brave few fought despite great odds - Custer's Last Stand, Alamo, Masada, Roarke's Drift, Spanish Civil War siege of the Toledo Alcázar, Seige of Kartom, Seige of the Diplomatic Quarter during the Boxer Rebellion in China.

[ January 02, 2006, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[beginner's luck]

Not discrediting anyone. Discrediting would mean I said EDWIN 's info was inaccurate.Which I did not!

My point was of all the examples of:

Originally posted by EDWIN :

Importance of good terrain and good strategy

Edwin used the one that was just on TV the day before.I figured Edwin would use a WW2 battle to prove his point.Since from the posts I have seen from EDWIN he has an unique grasp of what did happen and the "what ifs" of WW2.I thought it a bit funny is all. And as JJ said himself ,some times TV isnt as accurate since they need to make it more for entertainment of the people than be totally honest.

I know KUNIWORTH wants to stir up trouble but if me not believing in EVERY thing I see on TV is discrediting it and worth the scorn of KUNI than I will just have to live with that.

BTW Have you guys noticed the increase in "junior members" and people with less than 100-200 posts ,posting lately. And having good things to add.I love!!!!!

[ January 03, 2006, 07:36 AM: Message edited by: beginner's luck ]

[Edwin P.]

Ah, Good Terrain. Reminds me of Agincourt - I will have to check the spelling - where the British Longbow men cut down the Knights of France as they charged forward on a narrowing field flanked by forests on both sides.

The key word for describing the battle of Agincourt is mud. The battlefield was a freshly plowed field, and at the time of the battle, it had been raining continuously for several days. Soon after the battle started, it had thousands of English and French soldiers and horses running through it. Anywhere near the battlefield, the mud was at least ankle deep. Much of the time, it was up to the combatants' knees. Occasionally, it reached their waists. There are descriptions of horses floundering around in mud up to their bellies.

Falling off of a horse in the kind of mud that was at Agincourt was no joke, especially in armor. Indeed, many of the deaths (including that of the Duke of York) were caused by drowning.

The mud was undoubtedly a major factor in the lopsided English victory. The barefoot and in many cases bare legged English foot soldiers were vastly more mobile than the armored French.

PS: Its good to see new blood on these forums. And don't take any personal comments you read here too seriously. Just people having fun.

[ January 03, 2006, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[SeaMonkey]

Nice retort beginner,

You definitely have the sentiment to play in this forum.

What say ye fellow SC brethren? I say he's a keeper.

[Kuniworth]

Now lets all just calm down here

[JerseyJohn]

Originally posted by SeaMonkey:

Nice retort beginner,

You definitely have the sentiment to play in this forum.

What say ye fellow SC brethren? I say he's a keeper.

It's always heartening to see the one in seven or eight that we keep.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SeaMonkey:

Nice retort beginner,

You definitely have the sentiment to play in this forum.

What say ye fellow SC brethren? I say he's a keeper.

It's always heartening to see the one in seven or eight that we keep. </font>

[JerseyJohn]

I can't bring myself to post that rocking chair photo again.

But here's the link:

< Calmed Down >

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by Edwin P.:

Ah, Good Terrain. Reminds me of Agincourt - I will have to check the spelling - where the British Longbow men cut down the Knights of France as they charged forward on a narrowing field flanked by forests on both sides.

Not so

The new perceived wisdom is that french attacked downhill along a ridgeline - they crowded onto the top of the ridge to avoid having to walk on the slopes of the sides.

The longbowmen achieved very little, except attacking the flanks of the massive french column once it was stalled.

the mud did help though - it was the main incentive to teh French to try to stoy on top of the ridge, leading to the over-crowding that prevented many of them from using their weapons.

See http://www.crowddynamics.com/Agincourt/BattleField.htm

[beginner's luck]

Do you happen to have another link handy. I wanted to read up on that topic but it won't let me go to that page.

Thanks in advance.

[Edwin P.]

http://www.aginc.net/battle/index.html

http://www.aginc.net/battle/ops.html

http://www.geocities.com/beckster05/Agincourt/AgMain.html

http://www.familychronicle.com/agincort.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt

http://historymedren.about.com/library/prm/blagincourt.htm

http://www.crowddynamics.com/Battlefield%20Detectives/BattleField.htm

http://www.crowddynamics.com/Battlefield%20Detectives/Agincourt.htm

[jon_j_rambo]

http://www.google.com/

[beginner's luck]

Funny Rambo !!,being a smart-ss again I see. But hey , you were right I could have looked there.Didnt even think about that.Guess I got "lazy".There is always such great/interesting info here,I started to take it for granted.

Thanks alot for all those links, Edwin. Now I have my job worked out reading them all.lol