Foreign Minister Unit

[jon_j_rambo]

@X-Worm --- Yep, marvel not that Satan's angels come as ministers of light. There all over the USA, today. Far as the mistreatment of blacks in our history, that worm has turned. Also remember, the 'real' church doesn't run the U.S. Government; just a group of people which are polar pull on Uncle Sam. Same for any country. Adolf was just a small sample of what will be in the future as you well know.

[xwormwood]

@jon_j_rambo - Once again i can only agree.

@Sir Jersey:

Thanks for the greetings, same to you!

I thought indeed about Norway and Greece.

Maybe the UK should get benefits if they help those countries in case of an axis attack, worthless as it may be. Just like in history. Halfbaked attemp to help greece, but the rewards for helping paying of in merchant fleets. Could work in Norway or any other country as well.

[Edwin P.]

Or perhaps the payoff for Norway and Greece could be - "Partisan Unit Script Activation"

[arado234]

If were wanting to add all these foriegn policy options, What about the fact when germany attacked russia alot of the russians wanted to join germany.I think there should be an option factored in that anything from russia joining germany(with a reduced force)to no partisan activiy to russia goes neutral .I know from what ive read that some germans felt they could have started another revolt in russia(like in ww1)and the plan was to just to supply the pro german forces with mutions and troops to fight it out against forces loyal to stalin.With the absolute hatred of stalin by so many russians if germany played her cards right(diplomacy)germany very easily could have won over russia without an invasion.I dont know how or if you could or would want to factor this into the game.Maybe the only options would be no partisans or russia goes neutral.

[JerseyJohn]

Arado234,

Good points. We've discussed the Russian situation several times in the past and, yes, the blockhead nazis missed a golden opportunity. All they really needed to do was treat the Russian people as human beings, not even say they were liberators, only coming in to rid them of Stalin, and they'd have had no partisan problem to speak of. Only those planted by the NKVD, who the ordinary citizens would have helped root out. Additionally, there's no doubt that millions of Russians would have joined the invaders because, even with the moronic nazi policies, millions of Russians actually did!

A good reference on this is:

Hitler's Renegades: Foreign Nationals in the Service of the Third Reich

by Christopher Ailsby

I've read views by several historians who went as far as saying that Germany could not have continued the war in Russia after the first year without Russian nationals replacing their losses.

[SeaMonkey]

This is really a tough one. Not that I don't agree, its so obvious, but the ramifications to the balance of SC would be catastrophic.

I mean, the game hangs on the USSR being able to hold on until the western Allies re-enter the fray. With the additional help of the USSR nationalists there's really no chance for the Allies.

Incorporating this "what if" will require a revamp of many of the SC2 parameters and a rebalance testing phase.

Not that it couldn't be done, but it will require the most precious investment.

[arado234]

I agree.Russia or russians joining germany would be catasrophic for the allies.That would be a very tough one to balance.

[JerseyJohn]

An entirely different situation.

The nearest thing to a German plan was:

-- Axis occupies east to the Urals, requires 1,000,000 man occupation army distributed throughout the country.

-- Germany decreases army size, moving manpower to it's Air Force and Navy.

-- Unfinished warships in Occupied France completed for the Axis.

-- Axis concentrates on defeating Britain.

-- -- Axis becomes an Atlantic power, competes with the United States for domination of South America.

There are variations involving the Middle East, but the above seems to be what Hitler envisioned after defeating the USSR.

It could be made into a scenario, I think, but it would need to be on an expanded map capable of representing actions in South America and Africa. I believe it's very possible that several major South American nations would have joined the Axis -- despite their having joined the Allies during the actual war.

-- The critical factor is whether we're talking about the USSR falling with the U. S. not at war with the Axis, or after actually being in the war. Two tota.ly different situations, of course.

[arado234]

Still, germany with russia partly OR completely on her side.YIKES!!!!!!!!

[JerseyJohn]

I second that. :eek:

-- And to think, in 1940, Britain and France were discussing strategic bomber against the Caucasus oil fields and sending troops to fight with the Finns. They were determined to catapult the USSR into the Axis.

[SeaMonkey]

Interesting JJ, your concept has possibilities, perhaps with a Soviet re-entry.

It would be a totally different game.

[JerseyJohn]

Thanks SeaMonkey

Soviet re-enty, or some allowance for local seperatists revolts in parts of Russia, should always be a possibility.

The World War One Germans succeeded in the East, in large part, because they created Ukrania and the Baltic States while giving Finland total support against first the Czar and then the Bolsheviks. I don't belive the nazis would have been that wise. In fact, even if they'd been smart enough to deal fairly with the eastern populations during the war, they might well have become oppressive fools afterwards.

And then, of course, there would always be some form of Soviet or Russian government existing east of the Urals, waiting for a chance to come back into the picture.

In the case of the USSR having been put into the Axis by unwise Angl-French intervention early in the war, I don't think the final result would have been overly altered. It would have made Germany's victory in the west a little easier, but Hitler would have been no less to turn east after France, exactly as he'd done historically, to invade the USSR.

-- Unless, of course, the Soviet Union threw in all the way by invading Afghanistan and then India, while Germany and Italy took the Middle East. In that scenario Turkey would either have had to join the Axis, or been conquered by it. And, with Germany and the USSR on the same side it would seem certain that the Turks would have joined as well.

There are tons of possibilities from all of this, but at that point they're global. It might be better to divide them into different and more manageable scenarios in different regions. Or, perhaps use a global map with the force scale being armies and army groups and fleets rather than corps and naval task forces.

Representing air fleets, and their role, on that scale, might be difficult in this game system.

[arado234]

Just imagine the arguments on strategy if germany and russia were forced into the same camp.Hitler being the nutball he was probably would have screwed it up for germany anyway.I could also see the two dicataors just waiting for when the time was right to backstab each other.Im just glad that hitler didnt have the smarts realise the opportunity in front of him.Then throw japan into the mix and look out.

[JerseyJohn]

Exactly. I can't imagine an alliance between them lasting very long under any circumstances, yet they did talk along those lines a few times.

Of course, while the talking was done they were also planning to invade each other. After all, are friends for?

In actual history,

-- Germany, Italy and Japan didn't confide much in one another till opportunities had been lost.

For example, Germany had radar, which would have saved the Italian fleet from most of it's fiascos against the British, but didn't share it with them. Italy had long range bomber technology -- not shown in the game, probably because they didn't have the industrial strength to build more than a few, which they used for recon in the Eastern Mediteranean -- something Germany could surely have used, but they didn't tell them about it.

-- And, of course, Japan could also have used radar, but the technology wasn't shared with them till long after they'd lost big pieces of their fleet in night battles against U. S. gennery radar and also after U. S. bombers had run wild over mainland Japan with the Japanese depending entirely on eyeball lookouts. But somehow Germany didn't care about any of that.

Diplomatically,

-- Germany didn't tell Japan that it would definitely be invading the USSR, so they only found out about it through newscasts.

-- They also didn't tell Italy they'd be invading Poland, so the Italians had no chance to stockpile or prepare in any way before the hostilities began.

-- And Hitler started the war on the assumption that Spain would join in when the time was right, so he didn't consult them either.

-- The Italians didn't tell the Germans they'd be invading Greece, so that came at a time when Germany was close to securing both Greece and Yugoslavia, both of which immidiately pulled away from them, and we know about the later delay in Barbarossa because of the Balkans.

-- Japan didn't let Germany know it would be attacking the United States and Britain.

Not really the greatest interaction between alliances.

[arado234]

What did we learn from this.Absolute power corrups absolutley.Yes the axis alliance was at best a loose friendship that happened to be fighting the same enemy.Just imagine if the bad guys beat us.I bet they would go beat the hell out each other.And for fun we could throw the ultra,magic secret into it.

[JerseyJohn]

The usual projection is a massive battle in the Middle East/Red Sea between the European Axis and Japan, circa 1946 or 47.

I don't have the skills for it on the SC-2 system, but I think that would make a pretty good scenario.