Titles from Battlefront, Paradox, Matrix

[Glez_]

With these three developing a WW2 Grand Strategy game, my money is on Battlefront to come up with the best from what I've seen so far.

Matrix- GG World at War:

Looks like an advanced axis and allies type of game.

Paradox- HoI2:

We all know Paradox likes to milk their titles for all their worth. Looks like nothing more than a glorified and might I say expensive($40-$50) patch.

Battlefront- SC2:

Innovative and new it looks to build upon SC with many new additions that will undoubtedly make for a better game. The "Wargamers" game choice.

[J P Wagner]

HOI2?.....I'll pass...once learnt.....

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

I want both SC2 and WaW simply because SC2 won't be global, and WaW looks like it will at least be fun.

But I reserve the right to be as wrong as I was when I got excited about HoI

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

You know, to read the stuff coming out of Paradox, they actually "believe", I mean really BELIEVE we loved HoI.

They actually don't seem to think there was ANYTHING wrong with it.

They actually are so sure, they are actually promoting this HoI2 like it was something loved like SC.

It is incredible.

Can't tell if it's propoganda, or if the reason their games are so buggy, is because the people in charge are crazy.

[Wodin]

World in Flames also being published by Matrix Games.

[fischkopf]

So strange the whole HoI thing.

I thought it was just awful. But, as with Europa Universalis (which were wildly popular in ..europe) I read that HoI sold very well.

I can't imagine why, I thought it to be unplayable... oh well..

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

Remember, they sell a lot of Big Macs, but save your breath trying to tell me that means they taste good hehe.

HoI had one thing going for it, which sadly was unfortunate.

I don't really think it had any competition on the shelf.

I think a lot of people did what I did on hearing of it.

Hey cool global grand strategy.

But, I think if they had been given a chance of it or Gary's game, a whole lot of sales would never have happened.

Wodin, I WANT World in Flames for the computer, but, regardless of what I want, I know the board game to much to think it's going to work.

If Matrix Games announced they were doing a faithful recreation of ASL, I would be happy for that too. But I would have trouble accepting they would actually be able to pull it off.

cWiF has been a "wish" for several years now. Generally speaking, when a game languishes for several years unrealised, it's because it juuuuuust wasn't possible.

But hey, I am not going to be grumpy if they prove me wrong

Can't think of a better time to be completely in error hehe.

[ May 06, 2004, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: Les the Sarge 9-1 ]

[KDG]

Matrix- GG World at War:

Looks like an advanced axis and allies type of game.

I'll buy this one(if its not buggy, and they make a decent AI), along with SC2.

[Glez_]

To be honest, I was a bit angry at the thought of Paradox making HoI2, simply because they never got HoI right in the first place! Why not finish the first one and then go for the second.

What makes me even more angry, is the fact that all they'll do is add new graphics, new map, and maybe a few more techs and the latest version of HoI and call it HoI2 and charge you $50 US for it.

To think I used to enjoy Paradox games.

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

Well lets compare games.

Hubert gives us SC, and it has subs that suck (they function correctly, they merely suck from a practical sense).

He gives us a game where those that visit Ireland are never seen again (blasted leprecauns).

He has a game where air power can reeeeeeeally ruin your allied game plan.

But over all, his game is stable reliable functional easy to learn easy to play. And it's likely the lowest priced wargame I can think of (going on original price basis that is).

Paradox releases HoI, and basically, the original release was likely to crash and sit inert more than anything else.

Played lousy if at all.

And several patches later, is still only considered great by the guy that made it and their PR department (amazing what being paid does to an opinion eh).

And at 50 bucks, was twice the cost of SC, and you can bet, even if HoI was at least not a buggy unreliable piece of crud, it was certainly not twice the game SC is.

So now they are releasing HoI2 and likely for 50 bucks.

HC will likely sell his game for under 40 bucks, and you can bet HoI2 will NOT be worth more than SC2.

So what it all comes down to is this in my opinion.

Paradox has NOT established they can make good games (or even games that run) and certainly has not earned enough respect from me, that I am willing to pay top dollar for a game I would resist playing if I could get it as a scammed download.

Yeah you heard that right people, I wouldn't want it for free.

the ultimate test of a product, is when even free no one could care less.

And remember the old expression people, "there's a sucker born every minute".

So please don't quote sales figures, it only means Paradox might be good at running a con game.

[Komet-163]

the other's will have huge cost's in terms of marketing. Battlefront's S.C however wont so our price is cheaper.

another plus

S.C does not require you to buy a newer computer everytime a new varient comes out. So i guess battlefront wins in all counts, except i'll have to wait until they start shipping it to europe

[Panzer Leader]

I liked HOI, and am still playing it. The game was excellent, especially from the 1.03 patch and beyond. Sure there were some glitches, but geez, you guys need to lighten up a bit!

And Paradox themselves are a commited company, who continually patch their games, not just to fix bugs, but to add improvements. For example, HOI's latest patch (1.06) adds AI features developed for the game Victoria.

Don't mean to sound like a company man (I'm not) but this slamming is uncalled for.

I am also excited about SC2 of course, I just hope that Hubert adds more complexity to the game. I like details!

[J P Wagner]

PL, I gave HOI a fair shot but by the time it apparantly improved to the point of being playable, I moved on....SC was good enough from the starting gate to keep me entertained while awaiting the next patch while Strategy First- Paradox lost me as a repeat customer...

[m45tion87]

Uh... I've been playing HoI since it's release and encountered only few crashes (about 5 in year or so). Of course players complain about bugs and stuff, but IMO it's a great game generally (still playing it). New mods gives some fresh taste and community is helpful.

I'm also single player veteran in SC and it's also one of the best strategy games I've played. I'm planning to save my money for both games (SC2 and HoI2), so I won't miss a great experience from either one.

Hope I made myself clear

[Glez_]

Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

For example, HOI's latest patch (1.06) adds AI features developed for the game Victoria.

That's just it right there. Paradox makes the same game over and over, only changing the map, graphics and timeframe. Why did'nt they ever get the AI right in HoI but got the AI better in Victoria? Because once they sucker you into buying their game, they begin to devise a new plan for you to buy their newest game. Hence concentrate more on making another rather than fixing the old.

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

EU might have been an ok (I don't know, and frankly don't care).

EU2 might have been better. Likely was better. Still don't care.

But Glez hit the nail riiiiiiight on the head.

It is bad enough when someone makes a decent game, and then everyone and their uncle copies it to death instead of creating their own &%$^#@%$# wargame.

But Paradox, and whomever is inherently directly responsible for actually crafting their games, is apparently cutting out the middleman and just copying to death their own game themselves.

If EU2 was ok, fine, leave it at that.

But isn't it time they demonstrated they know how to do something other than make money?

How about demonstrating they can do something other than make the same game in several different graphics sets.

[J P Wagner]

I mentioned on the HOI boards more than once that HOI was nothing more than EUII with a new skin...however the best feature in HOI was the reasearch and tech trees...very detailed with many choices at your disposal....

[kossuth]

Hoi, i like the game idee. Yes its very similar to EU and thus i only have bought two game from pardox. I like HOI as its more suitable for playing alone. So a better AI is welcome.

SC i like because its so fun playing against a human. The simplicity then became complex.

Talking graphic the SC2 would not the first choice if that would be a matter.

I think without the commumity i would have lost interest faster for SC than HOI.

WaW looks very disappointing from the angle that its comming from Gary Grigsby. I will Hesitate before i buy it. As said before, "Axis and Allies".

cWif will it ever be released?

But i really are looking forward to Empire in Arms. I hope it will see the daylight.

Then i really are dreaming of a game that have the same system as "crusade in Europe" had.

Hoi has it but its not the same way as the Crusade.

Hoi is more like: get all units you have on a square and you will winn. NO tactics.

[m45tion87]

I dunno. I think Paradox makes a pretty good work with updates and patches...

At least my opinion is that AI has improved more or less in every update they have made.

Example AI doesn't make "suicide" landings so often as it used to be in orginal HoI.

And I have understood that most of the players in their forums are quite satisfied with HoI and it's improvements. And community has also made many mods that also gives some extra challenge.

And talking about talking about game interface and mechanism, I'm quite sure Paradox uses the same mechanics only because it's one of the reasons why their games are so popular. Why to chance a working consept? It could be worse!

Again, I hope you understand what I'm saying.

[Panzeh]

If you think HOI, Vicky, EU, and EU2 are all the same game with different graphics sets, then you've obviously never played them.

[m45tion87]

And then again, everyone has a different opinion about games...

[Glez_]

Originally posted by Panzeh:

If you think HOI, Vicky, EU, and EU2 are all the same game with different graphics sets, then you've obviously never played them.

I owned them all, sold them on ebay and Vicky was the last game I purchaed from Paradox. I have come to the conclusion that it indeed is the same game. Not only I think so but many game reviewers are in accordance with me.

http://www.pcgamer.com/reviews/review_2004-02-16r.html

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

Saying "a game is just the same as an earlier game" is an easy statement to make, and usually requires clarification.

Heroes of Might and Magic 1 through 4 was basically the "same game". But each time, they tried to ramp up the graphics set and add minor tweaks.

I played all 4 and liked all 4 and still have all 4, because you can actually go back and still enjoy the earlier games.

But the fact remains, they were all basically the same game.

Steel Panthers and Steel Panthers 2 Modern Battles and Steel Panthers 3 Brigade Combat were all basically the same game (for purposes of argument).

You had to get SP2 to play modern battles maybe, but it was still the same game (essentially).

All three Combat Missions are basically the same game.

This list can go on. Making extensions of games is nothing new.

But it always helps when all the releases were stable usable workable playable releases on the day they were released. Or at least with only a very few wake up gltches easily solved.

If you have to wait a year to actually finally be able to install a game just to play it at all, then it ain't in the same category as games I like to pay good money for.

Those that think Paradox's releases are "not the same game" are likely just being defensive because some of the titles have a LOT of baggage to hide from.

And their titles suffer a lot of guilt by association burden.

[m45tion87]

I agree. Most game series are continuing with the same idea/interface/consept. And Paradox games are also buggy (which I completely undestand because the game is so complicated), but there must something good about them because I'm always looking forward to their games.

Or am I too stupid to realise that I've been cheated?

[Panzeh]

I really don't mind waiting for a good game.

If HOI, EU2, and Vicky are all the same game, let's just use the economics systems as an example.

EU2's economic system ran under the hood. It was there, but you didn't have to do a lot to make it work.

HOI didn't have an economic system really. It could be controlled, but really it wasn't deep in the least bit.

Vicky's economic system is all run by the player, and it's a monster. I can say that it's micromanagement hell to try and run an economy there.

Oh yes, all the same game.

I guess Korsun Pocket is TOAW, too.