SM, DD & JJ Reunion Thread

[JerseyJohn]

stanhope

:confused: :eek: You appear to have this chaos confused with some other thread.

Of course I wasn't apologizing for any of that. My apology was to an individual, TaoJah, because I over-reacted to a post he wrote in another thread where I felt (and still feel) that something I wrote was taken out of context and distorted till it was no longer what I'd written. At first I thought it was done intentionally and my reaction was very harsh. Later I realized it wasn't an intentional distortion and I edited my original post and apologized to him here -- while forgiving him for his own sins.

Okay, let's see, we've got that taken care of -- check.

We've got Big Bird taken care of -- check.

We've got Texans who don't live in fear taken care of -- check.

We've got Brother Rambo and Vito taken care of -- check.

Have we overlooked anyone, or anything?

[Retributar]

I think many of us have experienced what you have Jersey John!, so...don't feel too badly about it, but do apologize as needed, if needed, and it look's like you have just done that!...everything seem's to be well under control!.

I myself, am unfamiliar with the case you just iterated!...but, that's o.k. .

[SeaMonkey]

JJ gets my vote for the "Nobel Peace Prize" .

Also for Secretary-General of the UN.

Could I hope that you are Catholic....the Pope's position is not beneath you.

And finally......well I'm completely at a loss for our next US President.

Would you consider it? :cool:

[JerseyJohn]

Retributar,

Appreciated

Wasn't much of an incident but I saw myself doing something I used to do often a couple of years back, which was taking posts too seriously. As you said, we've all done it and no doubt will continue doing it as that's human nature. About the only member I saw who never got overly agitated at least once in a while was the late Jim Boggs; which is one of the reasons he's so missed by his friends here.

The good part about this thread, aside from it being a great meeting place and SC reunion site, is maybe it causes us to think twice before writing things when we're a little too ticked off.

Brother SeaMonkey,

Many thanks, the Nobel Prize would certainly help sell novels and I'd even donate a good (tax free) chunk of it to humanitarian causes.

Couldn't accept the presidential nomination unless you run as co-president. No vice president, we'll decide on things together and, when we can't agree it will go to a coin toss.

-- I'm also at a loss for a good candidate. Last time I honestly didn't like either of them, Kerry ran the dumbest campaign I've ever seen, and that's really saying something. I'm still trying to figure out what his non-committal blank stares were supposed to mean.

Though I don't care what party a person is a member of, I lean toward the Democrats or, if I could find a truly moderate Republican, one who isn't in with the Bush-Cheney crowd, I'd go that way too if I liked what he said. So far in 2006 I'd back Wesley Clark because he's talking about the environment and other issues that have been given too low a priority for way too long. I hope he keeps talking that way as the election comes up and doesn't fall into the same stupid trap last two Democrats chose of doing exactly what the Republicans wanted them to do instead of following what were supposed to be their own platforms.

But, as I said, if a Republican comes along who is also placing priorities where I think they should be, I'd be willing to vote that way instead. Not that it matters, in N. J. Tony Soprano tallies the votes.

Pope? I think I'd be the first one to actually get excommunicated -- or was already done during the Renaisance? Yeah, I think it was, when the French, Italians and Germans were each claiming their own. :confused:

-- Started disagreeing with the church on just about everything five or six days after my confirmation. Which was strange because I was an alter boy at the time. I'd ask our parish pastor about things and he'd say, "Oh, it's a mortal sin to even wonder about such things." The sort of things Kuniworth asks about constantly!

[SeaMonkey]

I'd be more than happy and honored to be your co-president. Just one thing, with 280 million voices dishing out more than a small amount of criticism, not to mention the absolutely insane rhetoric, integrity bashing from the other politicians. Shall I mention the vote pandering, the lobbyists, the undermining of any reformation issues, totally dead locked congress, and the Supreme court that tries to dictate law making policy instead of interpreting the Constitution.

Well to put it simply...its no wonder Cheney has a bad ticker and shot someone.

I'd be dead or in jail and you would need a replacement. Better yet, make a long list of replacements. You'll need to invade some more countries to get your MPP level up.

I'm voting for all political positions being term limited, a flat tax, phasing out of Social Security and government/tax reduction.

The US government, state, county, local...all of them are completely out of control. And guess who's to blame...well its that idiot staring back at me every morning in the bathroom mirror.......before he's had his coffee.

But he's slowly waking up!

[JerseyJohn]

One thing's for sure, the guy staring back at you in that mirror isn't an idiot!

Well, we've arrived at the same old situation, the people who should be running this fiasco are too sensible to want to do it.

And I'd need a replacement for myself because I'm sure manslaughter is an impeachable action. Hopefully, when I shoot half the legislature and supreme court it would be called manslaughter. My escape clause would be that it wasn't pre-meditated, something just came over me!

Agreed, it isn't a simple matter of correcting D. C., the whole system needs to be fixed. The only question is whether it's broken from the top down or from the bottom up, but either way it's busted all the way through.

Social Security would have been fine if it hadn't been tampered with and plundered so many times over the decades. Like the rest of the federal system, treated like a license to steal since the very start.

What I don't understand is this: stealing from the public, or using the government for either personal gain or the personal gain of one's associates, sounds a lot like betrayal of the public trust. Sounds a lot like treason to me. Maybe politicians should become public servants again, as you were getting at, instead of fat cats getting in office for profit. Maybe being either a crooked politician or a so called lobbyist should be viewed as the worst form of treason. Capital offense, no way around it. A few fat cat executions, federal, state and local, and things might just start working properly.

The problem is, of course, the system that needs to do the reforming is the one that desperately needs to be reformed. Catch 22.

But the basic problem stems from the 2/3 of the American people eligible to vote who don't look at themselves in the mirror and see the problem, and who also don't go out and vote.

Going to start a thread on this at Buntaland. It would be great to discuss these things here but, honestly, this being a commercial site, I think the moderators have already been more than indulgent of all the non-SC-2 discussions.

[Desert Dave]

At the top of the Ticket:

Social Security would have been fine if it hadn't been tampered with and plundered so many times over the decades. Like the rest of the federal system, treated like a license to steal since the very start.

Reactionary bottom of the Ticket:

I'm voting for all political positions being term limited, a flat tax, phasing out of Social Security and government/tax reduction.

Well,

I've been voting since 1968

(... actively supported Robert Kennedy,

and would gladly do so again,

even! were he returned as a ghost :cool: )

In Federal, State and local

Elections, and

At times some would have called me

"An outside agitator,"

That's perfectly alright,

I don't mind in the least.

But,

If this Ticket was presented as a choice,

I guess... I'd have to vote

For the other guys,

Though,

Actually, it turns out, them others

Are - one and the SAME

As what we got to start with!

Funny!

How that works!

Sure, let's get rid of.... Social Security!

Yippee!

Let's have another 10-20 million homeless folks!

Hey Hooray!

People who are old,

People who are sick or disabled,

People who worked hard their whole life

And now the Mega-Corporations

Are defaulting on promised pension plans,

And no health insurance available

For them dumb dudes, down and out,

The ones trying to make it on minimum wage

Which is not hardly enough to pay rent

On some meta-ghetto hovel,

Why don't we just eliminate?

The lesser,

The freaks,

The lepers,

The natural-born - not-so-smart,

The not-so real relentless,

And while were at it,

Sure, lets assassinate the Weak!

LOLOL, USA already has the worst

Social Services of ANY modern

Industrialized nation.

Let's make it even worse!

LOLOLOL!

Ah, God help us, it may be the ONLY hope

We got left.

Maybe we leave these old and infirm

To the generous devise

Of... some Church?

Although,

Come to think on it,

How did ANY Church, or ANY Corporation,

Solve... the Great Depression?

Yeah!

We can get rid of ALL government

And have... a survival-of-fittest

Jungle-land,

Disney-esque adventure! once again.

Wouldn't that be very! merry and fun!

[JerseyJohn]

DD,

When I read that part about doing away with social security -- he really wrote phasing it out, which I assume means carrying through on pensions for those who are currently receiving them and within, say ten years, or doing so -- anyway, it was with the assumption of it's being replaced by something.

I don't think SeaMonkey meant it to read that people should just be dumped on the streets.

But, regarding that philosphy, what amazes me is it's usually the people making the most and paying the lowest taxes per income, utilizing loopholes the rest of us don't qualify for, who make the most noise about cutting "Welfare" with the stigma attached and things like social security, which has been robbed and perverted over the decades so it's no longer what it started out as. It's the whole Gimmeee-gimmeee-gimmeee and who cares if kids are raised in poverty and the misplaced eat out of garbage cans, gimmmeeegimmeeegimmeeeemore and screw those poor bastards, God hates them and he loves me, Praise Lord Jesus for being so smart.

But, honestly, I don't think that was the intent of that post.

Rather, I think it's one of the things we were talking about that needs to be made real instead of phony government pretense.

Someday things will come to a head in this country and will either reform, or we'll finish turning into the Czarist Russia of Nicholas II. When that happens, the fat cats will see how quickly things can shatter and crumble. Maybe they can get someone to read a history book for them before it's too late.

[Desert Dave]

JJ,

I can read, I KNOW what YOU have said.

[... you are more diplomatic than I, thanks be,

as we NEED "Philosopher Kings" NOW

more than ever :cool: ]

I have to say that I agree with you, oh,

On the order of 95%.

I also know what SM,

Has STATED,

Which are yer typical right-of-spectrum

"Talking points."

RE: Strict interpretation of Constitution,

IE, keep the world-view of 18th Century,

Or, reduced Government and taxes,

Or, getting rid of "social services"

BUT,

Keeping Corporate Welfare and benefits

For those who are.

By sheerest accident blessed

With some advantage,

Physically, or due to cleverness,

Cunning and conceit.

(... those not like that should - eat it? LOL!)

Etc, etc, ad nauseum.

No problem.

USA is a big place with many

And varied opinions & factions,

And I can handle that.

I just utterly disagree with

The "right-leaning" agenda, is all.

Wouldn't want the world at large

To THINK that the majority Americans

Are duped by this

"Me-first-and-screw-who-else"

Libertarian, or pseudo-Republican

(... last REAL Republican was Teddy Roosevelt,

then, oh, all the way back to Abe Lincoln)

And pseudo-Christian

(... guess they don't like CERTAIN parts

of the Bible, like "Sermon on the Mount"

for instance, LOL!)

Or this silly attempt to indoctrinate

An... "Individualist Myth"... bullsh*t.

Yep,

The tide is turning,

The day of... the fee-fie frothing jackals

Nears a necessary end.

***[... VERY curious to me, as a Vet, how awful

many of these bravado kin NEVER served, or,

did the "Bush thing" and sort-of served

in the... "Saloon Brigade" LOL!]

No longer do most of us who approve

Of - BETTER Life... for - ALL,

Merely sit back and let the avaricious

Do as they please.

Nope, no, nix, forget it, not a chance.

And, IMHO, none too soon. :cool:

______________________________________________

***Should be REQUIRED reading for all of America's youth, IMO.

>>>RELEVANT MILITARY SERVICE RECORDS

>>>

>>>DEMOCRATS:

>>>

>>>Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71.

>>>David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72.

>>>Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72.

>>>Al Gore: served in Vietnam Jan. (Journalist in army 20th Engineer

>>>Brigade).

>>>Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam.

>>>Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-47; Medal of Honor, WWII.

>>>John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V,

>>>Purple Hearts.

>>>Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea.

>>>Max Cleland (former Congressman): Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver Star &

>>>Bronze Star, Vietnam. Paraplegic from war injuries.

>>>Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-53.

>>>Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74.

>>>Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91.

>>>Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII; Bronze Star and seven campaign

>>>ribbons.

>>>Leonard Boswell: Lt. Col., Army 1956-76; Vietnam, DFCs, Bronze Stars,and

>>>Soldier's Medal.

>>>Pete Peterson: Air Force Captain, POW. Purple Heart, Silver Star and

>>>Legion of Merit.

>>>Mike Thompson: Staff sergeant, 173rd Airborne, Purple Heart.

>>>Bill McBride: Candidate for Fla. Governor. Marine in Vietnam; Bronze Star

>>>with Combat V.

>>>Gray Davis: Army Captain in Vietnam, Bronze Star.

>>>Pete Stark: Air Force 1955-57

>>>Chuck Robb: Vietnam

>>>Howell Heflin: Silver Star

>>>George McGovern: Silver Star & DFC during WWII.

>>>Bill Clinton: Did not serve. (Student deferments, high draft lotter

>>>number--#311).

>>>Jimmy Carter: Seven years in the Navy (submarines).

>>>Walter Mondale: Army 1951-1953

>>>John Glenn: WWII and Korea; six DFCs and AirMedal with 18 Clusters.

>>>Tom Lantos: Served in Hungarian underground in WWII. Saved by Raoul

>>>Wallenberg.

>>>

>>>REPUBLICANS (these are the guys sending people to war)

>>>Dick Cheney: did not serve. Several deferments, the last by marriage.

>>>Dennis Hastert: did not serve.

>>>Tom Delay: did not serve.

>>>Roy Blunt: did not serve.

>>>Bill Frist: did not serve.

>>>Mitch McConnell: did not serve.

>>>Rick Santorum: did not serve.

>>>Trent Lott: did not serve.

>>>John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business.

>>>Jeb Bush: did not serve.

>>>Karl Rove: did not serve.

>>>Saxby Chambliss, the man who attacked Max Cleland's patriotism: did not

>>>serve ("Bad knee.")

>>>Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve.

>>>Vin Weber: did not serve.

>>>Richard Perle: did not serve.

>>>Douglas Feith: did not serve.

>>>Eliot Abrams: did not serve.

>>>Richard Shelby: did not serve.

>>>Jon Kyl: did not serve.

>>>Tim Hutchison: did not serve.

>>>Christopher Cox: did not serve.

>>>Newt Gingrich: did not serve.

>>>Don Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as flight instructor.

>>>George W. Bush: failed to complete his six-year National Guard; got

>>>assigned to Alabama so he could campaign for family friend running for

>>>U.S. Senate.

>>>Ronald Reagan: did not serve (Poor eyesight).

>>>B-1 Bob Dornan: Enlisted after fighting was over in Korea.

>>>Phil Gramm: did not serve.

>>>John McCain: Vietnam POW, Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit,

>>>Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross.

>>>Dana Rohrabacher: did not serve.

>>>John M. McHugh: did not serve.

>>>JC Watts: did not serve.

>>>Jack Kemp: did not serve ("Knee problem) " but played quarterback for 8

>>>years in NFL.

>>>Dan Quayle: seved in Indiana National Guard (Journalism unit).

>>>Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.

>>>George Pataki: did not serve.

>>>Spencer Abraham: did not serve.

>>>John Engler: did not serve.

>>>Lindsey Graham: National Guard lawyer.

>>>Arnold Schwarzenegger: AWOL from Austrian army base.

>>>

>>>PUNDITS and PREACHERS:

>>>Sean Hannity: did not serve.

>>>Rush Limbaugh: did not serve (4-F with a 'pilonidal cyst.')

>>>Bill O'Reilly: did not serve.

>>>Michael Savage: did not serve.

>>>George Will: did not serve.

>>>Chris Matthews: did not serve.

>>>Paul Gigot: did not serve.

>>>Bill Bennett: did not serve.

>>>Pat Buchanan: did not serve.

>>>John Wayne: did not serve.

>>>Bill Kristol: did not serve.

>>>Kenneth Starr: did not serve.

>>>Antonin Scalia: did not serve.

>>>Clarence Thomas: did not serve.

>>>Ralph Reed: did not serve.

>>>Michael Medved: did not serve.

>>>Charlie Daniels: did not serve.

>>>Ted Nugent: did not serve. (He only shoots at things that don't shoot

>>>back.)

[ May 07, 2006, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[SeaMonkey]

Thanks JJ...Whoa DD! So you want the government to handle these social issues...just what I'm talking about...look in the mirror.

Delegate it to someone else and then complain because they didn't do the job right.

Read DD...a reduction of government, not a destruction of. The rule of Law and a secure environment to pursue life, liberty, and happiness. The sole role of the Fed.

You want to help the less fortunate people, so do I, but let's address that at the local level, get involved and evaluate who is really needy and who just needs a helpful shove.

Perhaps our resources wouldn't be so wasted through the trickle down bureaucracy, all those middle men with their own agendas.

Ohhh....you don't have the time, remember what I said about delegation.

Granted, there must be some coordination of the infrastructure for capitalism to thrive, but what we have is ridiculous.

Now you see JJ, this is just what I'm talking about. I'd have to make a detailed explanation and have a long drawn out discussion, 280 million times.....never get nothing done.

[JerseyJohn]

DD,

Agreed.

Copied the last few posts before your last one over to SC Buntaland for a new forum started there specifically for Threads started at this forum.

Hoping you and SeaMonkey and others will pick it up there, as we'll be able to speak more freely.

My own view, as I said, are very much like your own. A society doesn't survive when it squeezes too much up to the top of it's economic pyramid and leaves everyone beneath to snatch at the crums. Sooner or later the whole thing collapses. When that happens there's always one thing that occurs first, those who were formerly at the top find themselves hunted down and destroyed. Maybe I'm a Bolshevik at heart, but I'm starting to see that look in the United States.

Where, incidentally, the former Land of Oppotunity has now been statistally designated as a place where those born poor are more likely to remain poor than their European counterparts.

A real damming comment on what this country has turned into.

[JerseyJohn]

Continued from above post --

My Pleasure, SeaMonkey.

We got our posts in at the same time. As I said, copying these posts over to SC Buntaland. Hope we'll be able to pick it ut there, I think this is all a great topic and needs to be discussed by as many people as possible.

[SeaMonkey]

"Nope, no, nix, forget it, not a chance."

Thanks for the open mind DD.

So you would be happy with everyone at the same level of consciousness, economic level, going about their designated tasks for the goodness of all?

Did you forget, we're talking about human beings here, not ants.

[JerseyJohn]

I've only read about a few societies throughout history that succeeded in caring for all of their citizens. The most successful I'd read about was the Renaisance Venetians, who virtually eliminated poverty in their own city. Those who could work were, one way or another, employed and not as near beggars, they were placed in real jobs and given good incomes -- if not by the state, then by the leading citizens. Those who couldn't work were well provided for by those same parties.

On the other extreme, and at exactly the same time, were cities like Paris and London, where the unwanted were often, literally, shut up in cellars to either survive on rats, or die unnoticed. But just as often they fell down dead in the streets and sometimes went a while before being removed for burial in pauper's mass graves.

Something like this depends entirely on the will of the society and I don't think it can be legislated. But a society that takes pride in itself does it best to eliminate poverty and deprivation among it's citizenry.

While living in Manhattan I used to walk past the United Nations Building every day on my way to and from work. Usually, on the way home, I'd hand around it's garden for a while and read. Across the street, never photographed -- and I mean absolutely never! -- there were always homeless people living on the curb and sidewalk in cardboard boxes. That's what I see this American society, and not specifically New York, saying about itself.

[SeaMonkey]

Look guys, I'm not in total disagreement with many of the premises made here, I respect both your opinions and I'll be the first to admit, I don't have anywhere near all the answers, never will.

All I can do is observe and form some loosely held opinions based on the conclusions of my examination of the past and present.

Do humans respond to reward? Is that consistent with the rest of the "animal" world?

Do some learn faster than others?

Why does the USA have so many people wanting to come here and hardly any leaving?

Just a few of the basic questions that guy in the mirror keeps asking me.

[JerseyJohn]

Fair Enough, SeaMonkey.

Nobody has all the answers, or even most of them. But the really bad thing is that the U. S. has not only given up on finding them, but in too many ways actually given up on itself. People come here because they are desperate. Which is a far cry from the reasons they used to come here, which was to build a future and become Americans themselves. I've seen many now who not only don't want to stay, they just want to build a warchest and go back to where they came from to lord it over the miserable wretches they've emerged from. And many of those feel contempt for America and Americans even while draining it's wealth.

Anyway, copied everything up to this point to Buntaland. Have to go out for a while, hoping to pick this up later at that site.

[SeaMonkey]

Great point JJ, the smaller scale is easier to manage and pride starts at home. First with yourself, then your family, your neighbors and on up to your local community.

People thrive on the success of their immediate acquaintances, that builds and propagates to others, friendships, partnerships form and yes, DD, companies, corporations :eek: .

Take this forum for instance.

That's how it started, from those single dwellers, to present. Yes, there are casualties, some people wander off no matter what you do. Examine the trees for the answers, don't address the forest yet.

[ May 07, 2006, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: SeaMonkey ]

[Desert Dave]

Look guys, I'm not in total disagreement with many of the premises made here, I respect both your opinions and I'll be the first to admit, I don't have anywhere near all the answers, never will.

SM,

And I respect both of your opinions as well.

I have lived it out awhile now, and here is how

I would say it, as metaphor:

There is this large puzzle,

One of those with,

To keep it within ordinary, understandable

Bounds, say... 1000 pieces.

You spread it all out on the floor, or table,

And TRY to put some thing together.

WHEN!

You are not playing SC-2 Blitzkrieg

But of course! :cool:

In this my many good and bad years,

I have managed to fit together

TWO of those pieces.

Not bad for a start,

And probably won't finish it

Before I kick the bucket,

And that's alright,

So long as I am trying,

As both of you - are trying.

FWIW, I do hold some "conservative"

(... but, NOT Republican/Libertarian)

Points of view.

Several in fact.

Well, truth to tell,

MORE than several, though

No need to go into such as that, now,

But,

I am looking for something that does not exist.

As of yet.

Though,

As JJ, has mentioned, it did once,

And some other times we surely don't

Know anything about.

Gotta... go with the flow,

Keep on keepin' on,

Have some fun and play the great games,

I always say. :cool:

[SeaMonkey]

JJ, sorry, not desperation. You guys have got to expel the media propaganda from your reasoning powers, use your common sense. Read between the lines. God knows its not easy.

JJ, I just had an Argentine family come to work with me, about a year ago. Another is on the way. These people had a decent living in Argentina, their house was better than mine, he was an airline/air force pilot.

They love America, don't forget I live in S. Texas. I rub shoulders with many immigrants, legal and illegal. I visit Mexico constantly, do business there.

My conclusion, they are coming here for the same reasons they came here in the past, the same as our ancestors did, and you can't blame them either.

What do you think they see? Same thing those prospectors saw......in the hills of California, mountains of Alaska.

Think about it, have people changed that much, or is it, there is just more of them and the resources are dwindling, the infrastructure is not keeping up.

Why is that?

I'm with you JJ..............Gone >>>>>Surfing!

[TaoJah]

Can someone close this thread please ?

All that matters is said in the first post, IMHO.

[JerseyJohn]

Tao-Jah,

Oh, what a crank!

I go out for a few hours, SeaMonkey goes surfing and we come back to see you here with a demolition crew!

Okay, I renamed the thing so your name isn't in the title, now we're discussing what matters, which is the reunion SeaMonkey, DesertDave and myself are having.

SeaMonkey,

Let's take this over to Buntaland. I mean, Tao-Jah is out here with TNT and a blasting cap.

Responding to your post at the other site (link is in my signature as you know).

[jon_j_rambo]

@ToJo --- Now you do it again to Sir Jersey! You insult him twice! I never understood why you went after this guy. Even stranger, why he apologizes to you, for your insults!

[JerseyJohn]

Brother Rambo,

You're right, now my blood is boiling!

I don't understand it either, why do I put up with this guy?

Hmmmmm?

[SeaMonkey]

Well Tojo, I don't know that I agree that "All that matters". Actually I agree with Rambo, JJ has shown you an abundance of compassion and did you reciprocate?

Nevermind(Nirvana's best), JJ is right, as usual, off to Buntaland.

[hellraiser]

Check the last thousand years or so and you'll notice only sick f*cks leading countries. If you spot one sane person, that would be the exception that confirms the rule ... As for mistakes ... humanity learns from its own mistakes only to be in a good position to do different and more tragic ones.

Ppl need to smarten up otherwise the second coming will have a flamethrower carrying dude cleansing around...