The Kuniworth-Jersey People's War

[SeaMonkey]

An interesting hypothesis Curry. Blitzkrieg is a device for limited prosecution. I have to agree.

Historical example, my fav. "Battle of the Bulge"

Now the question is, does SC2 simulate the conditions of Blitzkrieg success and penalize an over zealous commander?

I'm kind of on the fence here. Since SC2 is about attack there is little motivation to move armored formations/high tech mobilized corps deep into enemy territory for envelopments. I would say a tile or two for the SC2 scale.

Reason being, units are unable to hold a deep penetration against a determined counter-attack of the enemy forces giving the ineptitude of defensive measures in SC2.

If so, what are the "winds of change" needed for SC2 to provide the incentives?

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Curry:

Kuni

I tested how fast the Germans could get to Smolensk. Historically this key city fell on July 16th, with the Germans beginning the battle on July 10th and it continued for some time with an encirclement after the capture of the city which the soviets broke for awhile. This gives a good idea of how fast the Germans drove into Russia.

In the mod when I play a hot seat game. I move the Russians just out of the way so as not to impeed the Germans, the fastest the Germans can get to Smolensk is to the hex outside the city on the game date of July 13th. That is only of course armor with the Russians not getting in the way at all. The ground troops are still way back.

Could the map be just a bit too large. Just a question?

In the next version that is coming up advance is somewhat faster for germans. But I think it works out ok. The battle for Smolensk did not end on july 16 but continued well into september. And the problems of logistics I think works out ok in this scenario with cities reduced to 0 and panzers running out to supply. If the german player strikes fast and hard he can reach Smolensk in mid july.

So to answer your question; no I dont see this as a problem and the map is not too large. With all historical units present I see it as abour right, and I'm more worried about how armygroup North can advance to Luga in july, that is at present impossible to simulate. Any ideas?

In a teaching mode the game teaches me how fast the Germans drove into the USSR and still could not conquer them. The Blizkrige failed for one of many reasons in that the USSA was just too large.

Thanks for the mod great job.

Thank you for all the kind words. A new version should be out shortly, but I'm waiting for patch 1.03 to see what that brings.

[Curry]

Thanks for the answer Kuni. I like to play the game more historical than perhaps many. You keep getting it better and better in your patches. You do a really good job in that regard and I just thought I would give that insight which you already knew about.

[Liam]

Defensive measures are possible in all game versions if you have terrain, You're right though futile to deeply penetrate and encircle an able opponent with the forces to counter you. I will only run around a Foe to kill his HQ, Air or to capture something that is worth losing a unit over. That or to deliver a death blow and open up the front a little. 1.3 probably cannot change this due to the scale of the map. It's very open, as it should be, the Germans didn't possess a very tight grip on such a vast front with so few soldiers. The Russians maybe could have... I think that the one Warped aspect of this game I can see are these things, Western Tech suchs too bad because they're too poor too late... They should have a tech boost, meanwhile Russian tech is too good and they don't have enough units, warped in that in historically Russians should be more numerous with lagging tech.. They had good equipment but a lack of organization and behind the Germans in many aspects far too long which together lead to their perile. Of course little or no Officers didn't help either due to purges

the West was stuck in WW1 tactics and outdated equipment themselves, just beginning to upgrade.. Upgrades should be more expensive for them, perhaps, timing it, but the ability to tech up fast should be there for them so they aren't stuck with IW1 or IW2 and no heavy tanks walking into Germans with IW3, and Heavy Tanks 3 or 4 by 1942 or '43...

The Russians did later catch up! The Western Allies had Numerical superiority as did the Russians, something that SC doesn't grasp, as the outlined goals don't lead to the Allies ever bringing their resources to bare, since SC is a Marathon type game....It's time to make it more difficult to penetrate USSR, and not make it into a killing field, perhaps all Non-Russian Cities shouldn't have Scorthed Earth or 5 Supply but the deeper you go, the Scorthed Earth and rebuilding is not at half but say at 4 or 3... And less, forcing the supply and logistic issues the Germans faced, not initially though later, similarly in North Africa

Out there Ideas? Realistic

[Scook]

For Russia in particular, use more forest, add more of the rivers that existed, and change the Dnepr river to include the areas that are impassable. I have been playing on such a map my friend is doing, and it really slowedme down the 1st time I tried it. Makes the Steppes of Russia a very inviting place (which is akin to a nice comfy spot in Hell).

[SeaMonkey]

Some good points Liam. My belief is the Western Allied tech should be available to all Commonwealth and USA units. It should be researched as one side, the USSR on the other.

If they(WA) remain separate then there should be some catch up bonus applied. Once one of the WA reaches a level two above the other, the one lagging automatically gets the next level.

In this way neither WA partner is ever behind in any tech more than one level. To me this represents a more realistic tech sharing scenario that existed in WW2. This change would also address your point of the middle game disparity in Axis and Allied tech.

As far as the USSR numerical resilience. I believe if IT and PT strides can be made before the Nazi juggernaut reaches its zenith, say early 43, then USSR can keep replacing those destroyed units by keeping them in supply. The rebuilds can be inexpensive and slowly but surely the German experienced units can be bled off, all except those dastardly AFs.

Man do we ever need an anti-air tech for ground units.

[JerseyJohn]

A late note:

In the scenario version Kuni and myself played, I found that, as Axis, my units began having severe supply problems as they reached a line of Riga-Smolensk-Kiev-(Rumainian Front). Rather than press farther east, which is what I wanted to do, I switched to attacking North-South in the hope of being able to strike with adequate supplies while the captured cities rebuilt, but that tactic was hopeless against someone as skilled as Kuni. And, of course, as the scenario's designer, Kuni at once saw the problem and, as you know, we ceased play so those flaws could be fixed.

I like Kuni's subsequent work and corrections to his project and am looking forward to seeing what he'll come up with using patch 1.03.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Isn't that supply problem historical JJ?

The biggest problem is that the Russians are typically

much stronger than historical by late August '41.

I hope we get an AAR which extends into '42. A '42

scenario would also be cool. :cool:

[JerseyJohn]

John D.

Yes, it would be, but I think it was greater at that point of the USSR (Riga-Smelensk-Kiev-Odessa) than was the case historically. But it's difficult to judge in that version because of the problem you just cited, and that Kuni also mentioned in his notes here, that the Soviets -- in that version of his scenario -- became too strong, too quickly.

I agree, here's hoping Kuni makes his new version good enough to satisfy both his, and everyone else's expectations.

-- Even that flawed early version was a lot of fun to play. :cool: