Ultra

[PeterX]

Will the enigma decrypts, and general Allied dominance in espionage technology, play a role in SC2? If it doesn't it should, most significantly in the Battle of the Atlantic. German dispositions and intentions became, increasingly, an open secret until their forces retreated to the security of their their own borders and internal phone lines. The Battle of the Bulge represented, for the Anglo/American side, one of the the few surprise events of the war post 1942. Unless I'm missing something, this gross disparity in spying capabalities is not refleceted in the game.

[Retributar]

The 'Battle of the Bulge' was a successful surprise attack for the German's because Radio Traffic was at a minimum and the need to know to those who needed to know.

Information was severley restricted,...so the Allies had little chance to know what was going on at the German High Command.

[Edwin P.]

Personally, I would like to see the intel tech have more of an impact in Sc2, other than a +1% to research and a -1% penalty to enemy research.

Perhaps;

Intel Advantage +2 - you see the enemies MPP balance. Now you don't see how many MPPs the opposing side has to spend.

Intel Advantage +3 - you see the actual number of enemy units deployed on the Reports screen, even those you have not spotted before.

Intel Advantage +4 - you see the research levels for all nations from the research table screen.

Intel Advantage +5 - you see the location of all enemy HQ units.

[PeterX]

IMO, the Allied player should know the whereabouts of virtually every Axis ground unit on the map- outside German borders- by the end of the war. Perhaps not precise manpower, morale and readiness levels, but certainly the location. The capabilities of German combat units or HQs can be boosted in compensation. The denouement WW2 becomes incomprehensible without including Ultra in the equation. In PC game terms, the Allies should be able to build the Bletchley Park Wonder.

[ April 09, 2006, 06:46 AM: Message edited by: PeterX ]

[Fineturno]

Maybe Intel allow you to see enemy productione queue or to destroy a queued stuff too.

[Edwin P.]

PeterX, the allied advantage your refer to, in my opinion, should only occur if the Allies obtain a substantial intelligence tech advantage over the Axis AI. There is no reason why the Axis should not have the opportunity to break the Allied codes, if it devoted enough resources to this endeavor and obtain a similar advantage over the Allies.

[ April 09, 2006, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[pzgndr]

IMO, the Allied player should know the whereabouts of virtually every Axis ground unit on the map- outside German borders- by the end of the war.

With long range aircraft spotting, you already can.

U-boats were particularly vulnerable toward the end for two reasons. One was ULTRA, but even that had some initial successes and then a period of inactivity until the new German codes were broken and then successful again. The other factor was Allied radar and radio tracking which lit up U-boats like a beacon. Axis ground units were not so vulnerable to ULTRA; it wasn't quite as omnipotent as some folks think it was.

If you want to play the game without FOW, you can. But for decent gameplay - both as Allied player desiring some chance of surprise, and as Axis player with some expectation of winning - the FOW effects work well.

[Night]

What exactly does Intel tech do now?

[Edwin P.]

It increases the chance of your research being successful by 1% per tech level and reduces the success chance of the enemy tech research by 1% per tech level.

[Blashy]

And having +5% to get level 5 Long Range when each chit of research gives 1% can be a big help.

[ April 09, 2006, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: Blashy ]

[PeterX]

Originally posted by Edwin P.:

PeterX, the allied advantage your refer to, in my opinion, should only occur if the Allies obtain a substantial intelligence tech advantage over the Axis AI. There is no reason why the Axis should not have the opportunity to break the Allied codes, if it devoted enough resources to this endeavor and obtain a similar advantage over the Allies.

To be sure, yeah, this should work both ways. Including sheer luck. In a way, acquiring the first Enigma machine from the Poles constituted a serendipitous event. Here's a summary from the BBC site:

By D-Day in June 1944 Ultra was no longer so important. But still no one wanted the Germans to sense that Enigma was being read. When, a few days before the Normandy landings, an American task force captured a German U-boat with its Enigma keys, Admiral Ernest King, US Commander in Chief of the Atlantic Fleet, threatened to court-martial the officer in charge for endangering 'Operation Overlord', as the plan for the D-Day landings was known.

By how much did Ultra intelligence, gained from reading Enigma ciphers, shorten the war? Harry Hinsley, based at Bletchley during the war, suggests it was a significant asset. If it did not keep Rommel out of Egypt in 1941, it certainly did so the following year, by preventing him exploiting his victory at Gazala.

As General Alexander put it, 'The knowledge not only of the enemy's precise strength and disposition, but also how, when and where he intends to carry out his operations brought a new dimension to the prosecution of the war.'

The loss of Egypt in 1942 would have set back the re-conquest of North Africa and upset the timetable for the invasion of France. According to Hinsley, Overlord would probably have been deferred until 1946.

But by then the Germans might have hit back with V-weapons and worse. Enigma successes always needed complementing with other intelligence material, but the fact that the Allies kept Enigma secret until 1974 shows how much it meant to them.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

But by then [1946] the Germans might have hit back with V-weapons and worse.

Or the Russians would have been sitting pretty in

Berlin for almost a year by then...