Battle of Kolberg, where did the Polish Army come from?

[jon_j_rambo]

Okay, question for the history nuts. Where did all the Polish divisions come from when they got to squash some Nazis in Kolberg in 1945? Where the Poles under Russian commanders? Was reading up on the battle & watching on History Channel International...Man, what a blood bath from 1939-45 both when the Germans rode thru Poland, concertration camps, no food, then have the Russians bring the kitchen sink thru. Then the Reds built the Eastern Block after the war, what a sucky situation.

[Kuniworth]

Yes russians countered the allies by putting up own polish units startin in 1943.

[Joshua22]

Originally posted by Kuniworth:

Yes russians countered the allies by putting up own polish units startin in 1943.

I doubt very much if they were succesfull at that. Poles didn't like the Russki's.... much.

[J P Wagner]

Originally posted by Joshua22:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kuniworth:

Yes russians countered the allies by putting up own polish units startin in 1943.

I doubt very much if they were succesfull at that. Poles didn't like the Russki's.... much. </font>

[jon_j_rambo]

Great night for History Channel International, they ran "Hitler's War" for 3+ hours. The last hour was about the Battle of Berlin, the German 9th Army got its ass completely surrounded. Showed some Bunta commander trying to break out to reconnect with South Western part of Berlin, get rescue a few & run to the Tanger Bridge on the Elbe River or something.

The Germans got their ass handed (literally). Not a good time to be wearing an SS uniform. Not a good time to be a Bunta. Becoming a POW to Russia appeared even worse. Total destruction.

[Kuniworth]

Thing is that the german 9th Army performed an outstanding defensive campaign on april 16th-20th at Seelow, and it was only lack of reserves that forced the russians to finally break through on Zhukov's sector. And no this was not just a case of Busse and Heinrici avoiding the initial bombardment by pulling back troops, it was an enormous demonstration of the wehrmachts true fighting capability. The problem for the defenders had much to do with the german high command's instruction to both eradicate the russian bridgehead at Kustrin while holding on to Franfurt on der Oder which consumed much resources. Otherwise they would have held out even longer against the onslaught.

Both Katukov's and Babadzhanians tanks and Chuikovs 8th Guards Army(the heroes of Stalingrad) pounded Busse's forces but got bogged down. And they would probably have faced even greater problems in Berlin if not Busse deliberately moved to the southwest to save the majority of his forces from harmageddon(the ss corps though lost contact and retreated into Berlin, thats why so many foreign soldiers fought the last stand in central Berlin, swedes, lithuanians, french etc).

The result was that Berlin fell a bit quicker, but ironically Busse's men got massacred in the forrests around Halbe instead due to Konev's successful encirclement earlier.

[ February 04, 2008, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: Kuniworth ]

[Kuniworth]

Regarding the slaughter of Halbe, some russians who fought there says it was worse than Stalingrad. One interesting detail is that still today german researches continue to dig for remnants of the 9th Army, the area they were squeezed into were not more than some kilometers across. Amazing that as many as I think 30,000 came out of it alive.

[Colin I]

Kuniworth raises something which, on the whole, WaW/SC2 doesn't do too well. The game fails to simulate the astonishing resilience of the German army when they were losing. This should be possible through the experience system of the HQ and ground units. In practice, this doesn't work, once the Germans start taking casualties the experience dilutes out too fast and their forces fall apart faster than they really did. The Germans consistently did surprisingly well when massively outnumbered.

Any solutions? I'm inclined to suggest experience dilutes slower (but it needs to accumulate slower for TAC bombers and artillery too).

[jon_j_rambo]

The TV showed some bone-digger today finding dead Germans all over the place. Well, I'm sure there were plenty of Russians too.

What an incredible battle, the capital of Germany!

There were interviews from the 1990's mixed in...some kids only 13-15 years old in charge of squads, taken prisoner in Russia, & lucky to be released to tell the tale. The civilians got waxed or starved...everybody trying to run West to surrender to the United States forces. The Show talked about all the Germans committing suicide to avoid the hands of the Reds.

The good German defense was probably based on knowledge of the terrain, a few good leaders/troops, and equipment. (Just like Squad Leader), beyond that, they were toast to all the tanks.

The Russians paid a huge price in men to take Berlin...all for what now? Way to go Germany.

"What were you thinking? You stupid idiots. You interuppted all our lives for what? Haven't you ever heard of Ford & General Motors." --- Webster in Band of Brothers.

[asgard]

Originally posted by Colin I:

Kuniworth raises something which, on the whole, WaW/SC2 doesn't do too well. The game fails to simulate the astonishing resilience of the German army when they were losing. This should be possible through the experience system of the HQ and ground units. In practice, this doesn't work, once the Germans start taking casualties the experience dilutes out too fast and their forces fall apart faster than they really did. The Germans consistently did surprisingly well when massively outnumbered.

Any solutions? I'm inclined to suggest experience dilutes slower (but it needs to accumulate slower for TAC bombers and artillery too).

Merging is the answer. Two epxerienced armies/crops who are not at full strength should be allowed to merge to produce anywhere from a stregth of 2 to 15(the maximum). I say 2 in the rare case of having two extremely reduced armies or corps at strength 1. However maybe it's not possible in current programing of SC. A good idea I think if Hubert decides to do a new SC game.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

The TV showed some bone-digger today finding dead Germans all over the place. Well, I'm sure there were plenty of Russians too.

What an incredible battle, the capital of Germany!

There were interviews from the 1990's mixed in...some kids only 13-15 years old in charge of squads, taken prisoner in Russia, & lucky to be released to tell the tale. The civilians got waxed or starved...everybody trying to run West to surrender to the United States forces. The Show talked about all the Germans committing suicide to avoid the hands of the Reds.

The good German defense was probably based on knowledge of the terrain, a few good leaders/troops, and equipment. (Just like Squad Leader), beyond that, they were toast to all the tanks.

The only thing the russian people got out of it was to survive. The communist leadership capitilized on their suffering to make Stalin the most powerful dictator in world history.

Its fascinating that the germans kept on fighting although all were clearly lost in 1945. They kept their disciplin and believed in Goebbels talk of super-weapon etc. But the nazis left a hell of a mark in history, everyone knows who Hitler was.

Anyway the battle inside Berlin also saw some insane fighting. The tiger-tanks action at the reichtag or the defense of the Kroll Opera were tough obstacles to the russians.

[arado234]

Colin I Its true the Germans fought suprisingly well even at stupid odds but most of these incredible stands happened with their elite units.If through attrition the Germans start to loose their experienced soldiers then I would think in reality they would start to cave like alot of them did.

Alot of the Russian failures was due to the fact that right to the very end they loved mass infantry wave attacks.Your going to take alot of casualties doing something dumb like that.Maybe if the Russians actually cared about losses they would have used a much more sensible strategy.

My dads friend who landed in Normandy and fought all across Europe(fought to clear the Scheldt estuary) told me that there were many times when the Germans gave up without firing a shot(especially when getting bombed).

If we are going to change the game to reflect what you suggest I would think that(since the allies will be taking more losses)you would have to increase total Allied output more towards historical settings.

I like your idea about artillery gaining experience very slowly.In reality once youve learned how to fire the artillery piece then I dont see how that would effect the actual ability of the shell to hit the target any better and cause any more damage.Artillery is generally indirect fire so I cant see how any more experience could be gained if you cant see what your shooting at.In Panzer General artillery gains experience very slowly.

For Tac.bombers though you are attacking actual targets so your overall ability would increase much faster.Look up what Hans Ulrich Rudel was able to accomplish.

[jon_j_rambo]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/04/obit.jacobs.iwojima/index.html

Another Legend gone, RIP.

[Liam]

What a lot of people don't realize is the brutality visited upon the Germans! Not just, but Stalin was not innocent with anyone he was paranoid of...No man opposed him... His dad once beat him so bad, he peed blood

Anyone, the last pitch battles were probably because the Germans knew what was going to happen, to buy as much time for their Fatherland as they possibly could, their people as well. Every woman in Berlin was raped, I heard even very old and very young, numerous Germans were evacuated from Prussia to free of those territories for resettlement purposes. It was a bloody mess, and no or less human than the Barbarossa scorched earth policies.

The German Army was fighting for it's kids for a change I think that's all the difference, instead of for conquest and knew the West would be lenient but the East, no way

[arado234]

H

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Liam:

It was a bloody mess, and no or less human than the Barbarossa scorched earth policies.

I think you have to rephrase that. There were no einsatz-gruppen out to do mass-executions of jews and civilians. Killings occurred and mass rapes yes but it was not the same systematic slaughter that the USSR had experienced for 4 years. Some russian units behaved well while others acted horribly. The soviet leadership first viewed this as a way to spur the troops on but soon found that it affected disciplin and fighting ability too much. They never succeeded however in seriously stopping plundering and massrapes. And reflecting on the scale of the rapes one can wonder how serious they were at all.

One thing for sure was that it affected the western allies and how people around the world viewed Stalin's soldiers.

[ February 05, 2008, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: Kuniworth ]

[jon_j_rambo]

It was like, like...like Joran van der Sloot said.

[Liam]

Kuniworth you are definitely the resident Russian Army Professional. I know some Russians today and yes they usually will not do what's not good for business meanwhile WW2 nazi Germans were all caught up in a bunch of BS Ideology. However even Russians today are on one hand some decent people on the other hand, they have a different set of values. One has to remark that a nation that has a shortage of wood and bread has different opinions and feelings about things. Plus whose endured such harshness over the centuries. I do not think that average Russian Soldier was out shooting anyone in sight. Though neither was the German Army. The Russians in their own right executed plenty of their own people to make up for all the Execution Squads within the Barbarossa Invasions. Probably several fold in fact so they were more efficient and deadly than the Germans were in 'fact'.. I quote a Movie where a famous Actor played Adolf Hitler, "Russia has it's Intellectuals," "And Germany it's Jews." I do not think that if we spoke as freely as we do here we'd be spared Kuniworth. We'd be on Stavka hitlist

So was one side better than the other, I don't think so. I just wouldn't of wanted to be a contradictory element to the Soviet Ideals nor a Jew/Gypsy during WW2!!! Anywhere in those borders

As for the brutality and evil, it's all relative and all war has it, WW2 was merely an elevation. Seems the Western Nations were in some ways more afforded the luxury of Humanity. As I think Human Life was a commodity neither the Germans nor Russians much afforded in the East if I put it right, not sure but either way. War is Hell

[jon_j_rambo]

German Ideology wasn't BS...else there wouldn't be so many Buntas.

The Russians have had a curse ever since they kicked out the truth.

[Liam]

Moscow was supposed to replace Rome, and then Constantinople for the Third Seat of Power. Never happened. That is why that Russian architecture so resembles old Byzantium's... Of course the Byzantium's were ignored by the Papalcy because of a few reasons, I do not think the Vatican much liked the Eastern Church. Though later they'd regret this when the Turks nearly conquored the Holy Roman Empire, then Austria Hungary

Communism Ideal, doesn't allow for God but it must've still been practiced. As it's still there today.

Germans today are completely conformed to a modern Trader Commerce Society. Built up by American Dollars and now surpassing all their former enemies as the most Powerful Economy in all of Europe I think that WW1-WW2 failed them but ingenuity succeeded. Odd and Ironic isn't it?

[jon_j_rambo]

Very good Liam. Now figure out what city is South of Moscow in the Middle East that everybody wants. When is the 5th Babylon start? How about the 200,000,000 man army from the kings of the East which shall march...a dried river Eurphrates...a walled in structured that will be opened at the gate (see any travel magazine), a 3rd Temple to built...nation which is not a nation, and sits on the city of the 7 hills...draped in scarlet & gold...an economic system which will collaspe in one day world wide...a system set up for image worship...two man to be slain on world wide vision, yet to survive....the woman nation who shall run from the dragon...

[mglsharkson]

One book I read on destruction of Army group center spoke from a high ranking general (I think), anyway most units fell apart fast, leaving behind brand new tanks (even tiger 2's), weapons, equipment as the Russians punch through. Very few elite units hung on and this guys opinion was how disgraceful most units just ran away when bomb or strafe, the leaders look the other way. Most books seem to be pro German in that the Russians just overwhelm in men, yet this book he pointed out how the Soviets really learn modern warfare lessons in 44 / 45.

[arado234]

mglsharkson its seems to me you must have read a book im reading right now called:When Titans clashed.It talks about the very thing you just brought up.It talks in great detail on how Russia did learn lessons from Germany and applied them to lay a beating on Germany.

[Liam]

It's apparent that the Russians beat the Germans, as the Germans were outnumbered before and won. Superior equipment and Tactics are the keys... Numbers really didn't make such a difference I think that replacing a high quality soldier on either side was costly. The Russian Core Population to recruit from was greater than the German, and the Russians were fighting 1 enemy not the World... Though things could've been different had the Germans settled something in the West first and then turned East with all their forces. You have to remember even the Battle Britain the Germans outnumbered the UK planes and pilots but that didn't matter. The Spitfire and superior use of their air resources won the day! Leadership as well

One could argue had the Russians started of in '41 at the beginning learning those lessons instead of letting themselves get pummeled again and again they might have not had to wait until '43-44 to win battles, so in that regard the greatest Blunders to me on the Eastern Front were Russian. Though they had more manpower and more space, thus more time. If they did not, things could have been very different.

[arado234]

Liam the fact that Stalin had alot of his leaders shot had alot to do with it and if he hadnt the Russians would have been much better lead with vastly superior numbers.Much differnt outcome.Hitler even said that had he known the Russians true order of battle he probably wouldnt have attacked them.So in this case I would think numbers do matter.

As far as the Battle of Britain goes the Luftwaffe was asked to do something it was never intended to do.Fight a strategic battle.

German bombers had a small bombload poor defensive fire.Their fighters(me109) were on even terms as far as performance goes but were grossly unprepared for any type of longrange escort.Had the Germans built Planes that were truley capable for the task they were asked to perform England would have been in alot of trouble.

As it was the Germans still could have won if they had done it right.When the guy at the top(Hitler)isnt to gungho about going after England and wastes valuable time by making peace offerings the attack was in trouble right from the start.