Terif V Jollyguy AAR, Wonder Weapons vs. Super Long Range Air

[Jollyguy]

Okay, I see Terif has posted about his latest Axis strategy, his Wonder Weapons, being rockets. And unlike Der Fuhrer who issued repeated roclamations about always imminent but seldom deployed secret weapons that would turn the tide in the real war, I can attest that Terif’s wonder weapons deliver on the promise.

However, in this first game that he’s used this strategy on me, I had also embarked on a new strategy...super long range air. A quick summary of our current game follows:

In hindsight as our game progressed I thought something was up, as Terif’s attacks weren’t nearly as timely or crisp. I.e., I was able to hold Egypt and Casablanca into 1941. Now I know this is because he was diverting significant mpps to purchasing four rockets, and then researching them. The first engagement that I was on the receiving end of them was around Denmark, as the RN was keeping Copenhagen reduced. He unleased a four rocket barrage, and with the help of the Kriegsmarine to shoot the survivors, sank two ships. He proudly proclaimed that his wonder weapons were being unveiled to the Allies. Then he operated all four of them to the Boot of Italy and in three turns took out Malta.

But what Terif didn’t know was that Churchill had issued his own secret orders to his scientists for the RAF to develop level 4 or higher long range capabilities. Why you ask? Because at level 4 the RAF’s Spitfires can reach all the way to Helsinki to soften up the Finnish garrison for the landing of two Russian and one British paratroops the moment Finland joins the Axis. In my self-hotseat games I found the strategy to have a fairly high chance of success provided the attacks were done in the right sequence. IMO it was also important to have the Russians at level one motorization, as an army and corp would be assigned the task of taking out the Finnish HQ before I commenced with the airborne part of the attack. So, Barbarossa came, an empty Riga taken, the Finns joined, the Finnish HQ taken out, Helsinki attacked by three RAF and two Soviet fighters, and the paratroops landed. Finland surrendered in one turn.

Terif in response, and to teach King Gustav a lesson for allowing the RAF and their paratroops to flyover over his territory unmolested, invaded Sweden with a massive amphib force (which he often has pre-embarked to rescue Sweden from a British attack, knowing that the RAF will disable Stockholm's port). His invasion force was so large that the Brits decided to pack up their tea and crumpets and depart Oslo in good order.

Meanwhile, the Russians left their Dnieper line to harass the Germans who seemed thin on ground units but heavy on air and rockets, as they were stretched thin with the size of their Scandanavian invasion force. But my attacks in Russian will only buy time.

It’s November, 1941, the Yanks joined a couple turns ago, Iraq and Iran have not been DOW’ed yet but I’m sure soon will be, and that’s where we sit. I’ll probably hold the Dnieper Line into 1942, but then have to face those rockets again. On the plus side the Russians will get some extra mpps for longer, and with LR air 4 I can see all the way into Western Europe and have my choice of targets, as all my carriers are also at long range air 4.

We’ll see how things develop, but as usual when you play Terif it’s an interesting game. But I do think the only reason I have breathing room was because of my attack on Finland and his response in Sweden, which he probably had to attack otherwise he'd have long range Spitfires breathing down his neck.

Bob

[jon_j_rambo]

Yes, Yodl is now using Rockets. Since he hasn't lost a game of SC2 with his standard Chessmaster style of cookie cutter play, he has decided to embark on new methods of winning.

Yodl has gotten into the rocket business as the Axis after a game against me. I had those 4 German Rockets all at tech level +4, they can trash anything.

Main thing with rockets, they are fun! Sadly, only Germany & Russian can get involved with rockets. The UK & USA can't produce enough of them to make it worthwhile.

Far as LR, that is another FUN technology. You can see the whole map, attack the enemy wherever, and put movement fear into his soul. Also, paratroops get interesting.

Granted, buying the tech toys is fun, but really isn't the best strategy. I prefer the fun game. I always pick "one toy" to go nutz on. Sometimes subs, sometimes rockets, sometimes bombers, etc.

For the love of the game,

-Legend

[Colin I]

Love the Finish attack. I'd have thought against anyone other than Terif that LR air would trump Rockets.

[Terif]

Sweden was in deed necessary after UK revealed its super LR - too dangerous to have them in the backyard and with these heavy investments into its air wing, UK had to be weak on the ground and not able to withstand a frontal attack in Scandinavia .

Not much else to add at the moment except for a few screenshots :

Scandinavian invasion force gathering at the beaches before moving further inland:

Russian counterattack near Odessa-Kiev with Axis ground forces busy elsewhere - causing a strategical withdrawal of Axis there:

Since most parts of my game against Jollyguy are still Top Secret, here a screenshot from the latest rocket game against Rambo - in the meantime (against Jollyguy it is a PBEM game started some time ago) my rocket strategy got much better elaborated which results in a much more Axis crowded map :

[jon_j_rambo]

In a word, Yodl. Showing more family portraits.

[Jollyguy]

Update on game: OMFG, I got Bulgaria to surrender! What happened is after that screen shot Terif posted of the Russians limited counter-offensive near the Kiev-Odessa region, I decided to get more aggressive. This is because after I replayed that turn in my mind I realized I was way too tentative (a normal feeling when you play Terif), and had I been more aggressive could have possibly taken out three units the following turn, while I ended up getting none. Plus, from the Axis order of battle I figured I had a window to keep them on their heels by concentrating in one area where the odds were at least even and likely in my favor...a rare occurrence btw when you play Terif’s Axis. If I did that I could buy more time for the Allies mpp advantage to become a factor. And keep in mind if you look at Terif’s screenshot of his other rocket game, it’s only June or July of 1942 and look how far he’s advanced! So I figured a good offense would be the best defense.

So what I did the next turn is advance across the entire southwest front, taking out that minor army and later a minor corp. Terif retreated into the mountains but not far enough, as I attacked again the next turn, heavily damaging a rocket, a Luftwaffe fighter, and taking out an Italian fighter that I had previously damaged twice. This was possible as I got an incredible stroke of good luck...a clear day in the middle of December! I then moved a fighter into the mountains and saw that both Sofia and Budapest were empty, and both within range of a recently operated paratroop. (btw, I’ve discovered that you can operate and prepare a seven supplied paratroop in the same turn, but not the other way around.)

So, I picked Sofia, as Terif is temporarily bogged down in Greece, he only has three corps down there. And btw, because of that I’ve been reinforcing the Greeks each turn to keep those three corps off the Russians back, which I normally wouldn’t do as it’s a waste of mpps, but in this case strategically it makes sense. I also figured taking Sofia might cut the German’s supply a bit in Greece, and that Budapest was too much of a stretch anyway, as I cold operate in and support Sofia should I choose to do so. So, the poor Bulgars surrendered. The next turn the Russian Winter hit, so that clear day was much appreciated by the Russian military. I moved a corp toward Sofia the next turn, opening up a land bridge to allow my paratroop to operate out, as I’m finding them far to valuable to waste in what will eventually be a fruitless defense of the city. I operated in another corp to take its place.

On the other fronts: Helsinki continues to get bombarded by three rockets and three fighters, but is hanging on. Leningrad has not been touched yet. I threatened the Swedish ore fields with a motorized corp, but ran out of supply and fell one hex short of taking the port, and one Swedish hex turned red so I knew Terif would know I was up there and that he would transport a unit, so I retreated. In Norway the Brits have retreated to Narvik and are entrenched in the Mountains, and Terif is whittling them down, but again, they’re keeping Axis units occupied. And the Yanks have been in the war long enough for one of their fighters to assist in subduing those damned Irish, thus ensuring a regular supply of Guinness beer for the duration. Goddamn Hussein (Saddam’s father) was overrun by the Germans, but the Mullahs in Iran are still neutral but I doubt for long. Switzerland was just DOW’ed but not taken in the same turn, but they should fall in another turn or two. And, at the end of my most recent turn in early 1942, the Siberians arrived.

Other observations: 1) I like the Russian paratroops, they make the Axis plan for the possibility of drops behind their lines. I think they’re worth the only 30 something extra mpps over an army. 2) I like motorization 1 for the Russians. In other games I've had to operate countless units east as Terif pressured my front, costing almost as much as upgrading to motorization would take. Plus, it gives me the option to attack more units should the chance arise. Terif might disagree with this, though, but then he's a much better player than I.

Bob

[jon_j_rambo]

Yodl on the ropes? What is my LGF (Little Green Friend) of 40 pounds going to do know? I'm sure he's in his Swamp doing some calculations.

[Terif]

Yes, Axis forces were a bit stretched and weak on the ground at Barbarossa after all the rocket investments and so Allies took their chance .

But now it is payback time - russian army and tank are the first to taste the guns of my now arriving freshly trained troops and fade away into the happy hunting grounds...german troops now finally equiped too with Infantry Weapons 3 after Russia already started into Barbarossa with IW3 and AT3 . 2 corps in Bulgaria and one in Hungary cut off from retreat by a solid axis combat line between them and their home country... :cool:

In Scandinavia Bergen is Axis and english wifes have to mourn about all the dead bodies shiped back from Narvik...

[jon_j_rambo]

Here comes Yodl! Wow, he was behind in IW against Russia.

[Terif]

May 1942 - whole Europe is celebrating :

The german spring offensive started and results in the complete liberation of Norway, Finland and Bulgaria. Iran, Switzerland and Greece simultaneously got integrated into the german empire .

On their way east, axis foot soldiers encounter countless smoking wreckages of russian tanks, remainings of the bomb and rocket showers that cleared the path...russian counterattack with their last tanks and the siberian reinforcements from Smolensk - aimed to destroy a low-tech (still Heavy Tanks 0) german Panzer unit - ends with 3/4 of the russian level 2 tanks destroyed.

After beating back the invasion of Romania, german ground forces rush fast forward between Kiev-Odessa towards Kharkov, surprising paratroopers just preparing for jump and nearly overruning Konev HQ that barly survives the slaughter.

[jon_j_rambo]

42 pounds of my LGF on the counter attack. And all of Europe, turned & bowed to the neon god they made,"Yodl, Yodl, Yodl".

[Jollyguy]

Update, May 1942: Ah, Terif beat me to the update. Russians bid dasvidania to the Carpathinian mountains, and lose one corp but keep another as a rearguard in Sofia. First, the corp can’t go anywhere, but also because we all know Russian men like their women stocky and with plenty of meat on their bones, and those Bulgar women fit the bill...after all they will be the mothers and grandmothers of those muscle bound female athletes that will sweep the 1972 Olympics (with a little help from steroids).

The Sofia corp with the help of a Yugoslav partisan that’s on the move, send back a transmission that two German armies have arrived, signaling a buildup in the area. Other Russian units in the vicinity pullback to the river line near Odessa, just out of reach of a rocket stationed in Rumania.

Meanwhile, Helsinki falls after getting pounded for at least six months. But the Siberians, in their first taste of battle, take out an experienced German level 0 but level 2 motorization tank that had left the marsh area and moved toward Leningrad, which is probably next on the list to be bombarded by what now must be three experienced rockets. I may lose a tank in return (and Terif said I did), but a one-to-one exchange ratio would be fine with me. I only had two tanks, the Siberian ones, and the other heavily damaged one will retreat. I believe the level two motorization was to balance Terif’s combined arms attacks with his rockets, which can’t fire and move or vice-versa like infantry and armor. The plan is probably for the rockets to help blast the holes, which would be exploited by other upgraded, speedy ground units. My attacks so far have disrupted his plans, but it’s still a long war and level 2 motorization is obviosly something to keep an eye on.

Elsewhere: 1) Narvik falls as expected, at the cost of two British corps killed and one other moderately damaged. An English HQ, army, and damaged corp depart for the Home Islands. Around Oslo the RN and USN move in to blockade its port, bombarding both the city and port, hoping to make it longer and/or costlier for the Scandanavian force to get back to Europe proper. There’s a Luftwaffe fighter there also, so I’ll have to gauge how much damage to allow my ships to take if he attacks me, in exchange for also tying down the fighter and supporting HQ for each additional turn. 2) Over two turns, three RAF fighters and three carriers remove the entrenchment and gain experience by taking potshots at a German corp garrisoned in Brussels. 3) The brave Greeks continue to hold Athens, their best showing ever in any game I’ve faced Terif, but they should fall in the next turn (as the Swiss just did). I don’t believe the German corps are supported by an HQ and are likely low on supply since the paratroop raid on Sofia, as the German attacks are weaker than expected, forcing naval bombardment of the city and port, which exacts some damage to a German BB and cruiser. This also ties down the bulk of the combined German/Italian fleet and may be a consideration, as other than an American fighter that bombed those damned Irish, the Yank forces have yet to make an appearance. 4) The Mullahs in Iran are conquered, but not before they make plans to safely transport their favorite racing camels and harems (in that order).

Terif puts a good spin on his reports, but on balance we are entering the second phase of the war, which I suspect will be as interesting as the first. I had no intention of holding Norway and only saw it as a front to tie-down forces I would have otherwise had to face in Russia. Iran always falls to Terif’s Axis, as does Greece and Switzerland, but generally in 1941, not 1942. Finland and Bulgaria may have been liberated, but only after they surrendered first, along with all their units.

Terif might win, but he offers the best game out there. So much so that I actually have no others going, as his are the most challenging and interesting and the only ones that sate my desire to go up against the best. If I ever, ever beat him I will hoist a beer in satisfaction though!

Bob

[jon_j_rambo]

Wow! "Terif is putting on a spin"? Could this be the end to the master Yoda from the Fatherland?

[Jollyguy]

Not at all. But I'm not surprised at the latest Axis victories, as they're all expected along the way before the Western Allies can bring their forces to bear.

IMO Terif sees SC holistically, grasping the games disparate elements like no other. Whereas the rest of us can achieve localized victories (like a Finnish and Bulgaria surrender), he takes in the whole map and adjusts accordingly.

For all those interested in improving your game I suggest you apply to "Terif U" to see if he'll play you. I am something like 0-10 against him, but I can tell you that I learn new moves every game, and that the trend in our contests is for them to last longer, an indication that I'm putting my lessons to work. The hurdle I face is I only play two or three games at a time and all pbem, so my learning curve will always lag Terif's. My goal is to eventually beat him, but it just might take (considerable) time for my skills to rise anywhere near his level.

Bob

[jon_j_rambo]

My record is 0-47 versus Yodl. Many games I surrendered early against the automated LGF. Anybody can sit on their duff as Allies until getting headcrack. Beside that, it seems like old times.

I'm the #2 player in both SC & SC2.

[SeaMonkey]

And still full of it, I might add!

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Has ANYONE beat this guy? C'mon JG I know you can do it...

[Terif]

So far nobody has achieved to beat me in SC2 - and I have several hundred games already under my belt .

Fortunately in SC2 luck plays longterm no role since you can compensate everything by adapting to the situation and using the right strategy. Luck/random events only changes the course of action and the strategy you can/have to use, but has no real influence on the outcome of the game.

The main mistake many players make is giving up too early or during the first sign of trouble. In SC2 the tide can turn several times till the game is really over and there will always be ups and downs. So never surrender only because you are at the moment in the disadvantage (or at least think you are...you may be weak, but with FoW you never know if your enemy may not be even weaker... ), change your strategy and turn the tide, in SC2 all possibilities are still open as long as you are willing to fight .

Back to the AAR :

This game is really one of the most interesting ones I played in a long time - first time at all Russia even managed to get till Bulgaria and simultaneous battles on half a dozen fronts at once .

But now the tide has turned and Axis enter their expansion phase: Russian counterattack kills three german corps between Kiev-Odessa, but this attack was maybe not so wise...in the last 2 turns 6 countries surrendered or got liberated, so Axis morale was at its maximum and russian soldiers completely demoralized...russian strength point losses therefore extreme, Russia loosing around double the mpps than Axis and this during their own turn . The axis counterattack proves to be even more devastating: in exchange for the 3 corps they destroy both russian paratroopers, army and corps...the few surviving russian units heavily damaged.

Meantime Axis forces in Scandinavia are clearing the area to establish a land connection from Oslo via Helsinki-Leningrad till Berlin. Leningrad reduced to rubble by german rockets, shoot from 10 to 0 within 4 weeks (1 turn) of bombardment, should fall within 1-2 turns.

In France western Allied airplanes and carriers went onto a rampage tour...Brussels defenders only barely survive at str 1...german high command decides to send reinforcements into the region to be prepared against the soon expected invasion - Rommel takes over command of the Atlantic Wall defenders.

[ March 23, 2007, 03:11 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

[jon_j_rambo]

In a word: YODL

[Terif]

In panic the russian survivors flee in the interior of mother Russia...after beeing so long under Stalins thumbs, the citizens of Leningrad, Smolensk, Kiev and Odessa welcome the german liberators with open arms and volounteers join in great numbers the axis freedom forces while Russia starts rebuilding its industry in the Urals .

Meantime in the west, Allies merciless bombard Brussel - already lying down in ruins - with 5 airfleets and 3 carriers. After which US and UK armies land east and west, killing the last heroic defenders of the city...another 2 armies destroy the italian engineer corps just fortifying the outskirts of the city.

As retaliation a supply 4 US army gets annihilated by Rommels rapid deployment force standing in western Germany and France...to get control of the situation, german high command decides to detach half a dozen additional german corps to Paris-Essen and assign them under Rommels command.

[Konigs]

Great read, thanks Guys...

[Jollyguy]

The most interesting game before this one was my all-in Egyptian gambit one, but this has replaced that.

Yes, after conquering/liberating something like 5 countries in succession the Axis morale was riding high. But Uncle Joe, sensing there may not be a better opportunity to kill Germans, especially fast moving ones, ordered an attack on the three level 2 motorization corps that blitzed into the Kiev/Odessa plain. All three German corps were taken out. In return the Russians lose both of their brave paratroops and another corp. Tally for the battle over two turns is six units lost for the Russians (one tank, two paratroops, one army, two corps), vs three, level two motorization corps for the Germans. The Russians retreat in haste behind the Dnieper river and form up their line, and also order Stalingrad evacuated while it can be, as despite the Politburo’s best efforts to suppress information about the effectiveness of the Wonder Weapons, word has spread to the units that do the fighting and dying that those rockets are effective. Other frontline cities that are generally lightly defended if at all are also abandoned, much to the dismay of the populace, who are handed Molotov cocktails and explosives and ordered to raze their own cities the moment Axis troops set foot inside.

Out West the poor German corp tasked to defend Brussels develops a strained neck from craning his eyes skyward, trying to spot who is attacking him this time, be it two American and three RAF fighters joining forces, followed by three RN and one USN carrier. He survives to strength 1 during one turn, but on the third turn of attacks the Allies land and put the German corp out of his misery. While taking Brussels the Allies also stumble upon an Italian and German engineer in the superbs trying to lay concrete, both armed with nothing but picks and shovels, as neither had been upgraded to even infantry level 1. The German engineer is more attractive but out of range, so the Italian engineer is taken out instead, and the German one moderately damaged. From London the RAF bomber peers into Germany and only sees a recently arrived German corp in Paris, another one near the Siegfried line, and a handful of Italian and minor units.

Up north the RN disables Narvik’s port to 0 and then pulls back, while on the Iranian border a caravan of camels is spotted on the mountain ridges, mounted by Germans who haven’t quite mastered the cantankerous beasts.

Tally between the two fronts over the last several turns is six Allied units destroyed (all Russian), to five for the Axis, indicating that it will be a bloody war for both sides.

Bob

[Jollyguy]

Oh, wait, I forgot that German tank the Siberians took out. Adding that and the US army Terif said he just destroyed, it's 7 Allied to 6 Axis units lost. Yes, it will be bloody.

Also, one other observation. An indication of the fast, fluid nature of this game is the operating costs we've both incurred. I don't think a turn has gone by recently that I haven't heard the train bell "ding-ding" sound as Axis units are operated one direction or another, and same for the Russians, who have to get out of the reach from those level two motorized German units.

Bob

[Iron Ranger]

Nice read, really like Terifs read on the game.

[Jollyguy]

The bucket-o-blood meter is still turned on high!

It's July 28, 1942, and in the latest action the Russians abandon the Dnieper river, as previous contests have instilled in them the knowledge of when to pack the rucksack and head East. Actually, the Russians all along the front put the pedal-to-the-metal and head East, as despite Uncle Joe's best efforts to suppress things, the rumors of those Wonder Weapons just keep getting worse.

Out West the Allies expand their beachhead around Brussels, taking out two level 2 motorized corps which had taken out a US army, and they expand and reinforce their positions all around. They take breaks however to imbibe of that great 10% alcohol Belgian beer. They turn in for the night not knowing if Rommel and his cadre of corps will be reinforced. But before they can get too comfortable they hear the far away sounds of battle as a US paratroop unit is destroyed, but not before reducing three level 2 German motorized corps to 5 each. Then they hear the ding-ding of train whistles, and watch as the Germans move in reinforcements. Armies and corps pour into the front, and even the Italians and minors hitch rides on trains, as units are moved about all over including from Scandanavia where a landbridge was recently opened by the Axis to get around their ports being disabled, almost causing this writer to get dizzy from all the action. The entire map seems to get reshuffled!

The Western Allies decide to call an end to their Low Countries raid, and the generals, who had fortuitously positioned themselves near the port, plan their departure, along with 2 other land units lucky enough to escape. But before they leave the sky fills with aircraft from both land and sea, which soften up 2 damaged corps, which are then taken out by land units that will constitute the rearguard. Once the rearguard action is complete, including taking the French mine, the British and US HQ's and their survivors depart, taking solace in all the operating costs they made the German incur, which will be doubled if they want those units returned to the Eastern Front in a timely manner.

And meanwhile, out East, the Russians also take note of the ding-dings, and emboldened, put the brakes on their almost entirely motorized force. They skid to a stop and swing around, reversing direction, bent on taking revenge on the Axis units that destroyed their two Dneiper mines and Kharkov and even their beloved Moscow! They catch a German Army in the open south of their former capital and destroy it, and also take out the paratroop who suffered 4 landing damage when he took Kharkov, and even reduce one of the Wonder Weapons, now at an attack range of 5 btw, to 4 strength points. The Russians also rush back to occupy fortifications along the Dnieper river that somehow survived the earlier German onslaught.

Meanwhile, down South, a Russian army moves toward the front, closer to a German camel corp on the other side of the river. Other than staring at each other across the water no action has occured on the Caucusses front. And in Norway, the Narvik port is still disabled, and Bergen reduced to three and it's port surrounded, in case the Allies want to take up residence again, as it appears that all thats in Scandanavia now after that theatre-wide reshufflng are minor units.

Losses are substantial and should get more so, as the Summer is prime killing season. The Western Allies will lose six units from their raid: Two US armies; a US paratroop; two British armies; and a British corp; while taking out six themselves; The hapless Italian engineer which Il Duce only gave picks-and-shovel to; the original corp garrison; and four of the more expensive level 2 motorized corps. And as often happens, I think I've lost track of the losses in Russia. Let's just say Russia being colored red is probably appropriate.

Bob