Sealion

[Cheese Panzer]

Originally posted by Lars:

You still haven't provided any backing for your statement.

Hitler could have easily fortified his border with Russia and Stalin could have done the same. The pact between them worked well to both their mutual advantage, so I could easily see a better scenario for them co-existing if Adolph had decided Poland and France were just as good for current lebensraum needs and stayed out of a two front war.

Any of the major biographies of Hitler (Shirer or Kennedy are both very good) plus the reports of many of his inner circle all say that Hitler harped constantly on the need to destroy Communism and occaisionally voiced his frustration that the Western Powers didn't see things his way. Just because it's crazy doesn't mean that he didn't believe it. "Liebensraum" was a politcal concept rather than a demographic necessity. Attempts at victorious forgein wars have been the fall-back of dictators from Ancient Egpyt through Saddam Hussien.

As for the Russians - it was a old joke when I was at college that, to the Soviet Union, border security in Europe meant the Rhine river! Was Stalin going to invade Germany in 1941? No, and for all the reasons you state. But Stalin had every intention of fighting the Germans at some point if for no other reason than to prevent another German invasion like the one that had toppled the Tzar. In fact, the day of the invasion when Stalin's staff came for orders he was expecting them to take him out and shoot him!

I can't quote you an exact timetable but I seem to recall that Soviet planning was headed towards a mid-1940's showdown with Germany. Presumably after the effects of the officer purge had been rectified and the situation with Japan had been settled.

[Lars]

Originally posted by Cheese Panzer:

Any of the major biographies of Hitler (Shirer or Kennedy are both very good) plus the reports of many of his inner circle all say that Hitler harped constantly on the need to destroy Communism and occaisionally voiced his frustration that the Western Powers didn't see things his way. Just because it's crazy doesn't mean that he didn't believe it. "Liebensraum" was a politcal concept rather than a demographic necessity. Attempts at victorious forgein wars have been the fall-back of dictators from Ancient Egpyt through Saddam Hussien.

Hey Cheese Panzer, all I'm really saying is Hitler could have waited a few years.

As for the Russians - it was a old joke when I was at college that, to the Soviet Union, border security in Europe meant the Rhine river! Was Stalin going to invade Germany in 1941? No, and for all the reasons you state. But Stalin had every intention of fighting the Germans at some point if for no other reason than to prevent another German invasion like the one that had toppled the Tzar. In fact, the day of the invasion when Stalin's staff came for orders he was expecting them to take him out and shoot him!

I can't quote you an exact timetable but I seem to recall that Soviet planning was headed towards a mid-1940's showdown with Germany. Presumably after the effects of the officer purge had been rectified and the situation with Japan had been settled.

Well, that would be the time to do it. 1941? No way. Realpolitik usually dictates that the two biggest kids on the block always end up enemies. But plenty of time for the clash of the titans later.

And again, in the game, German is forced to attack Russia. Usually by 42 at the latest. But it was never a necessity and there's no evidence Stalin would have come riding to the UK's rescue.

So take a year or two off and do Sealion up right.

[Desert Dave]

Ein Kleine Scherz:

Austria, early 20th Century.

Papa is sitting in favorite easy chair,

Shaking his head in disgust

After reading of the latest news from Vienna,

Some Dumkopf talking of Ego

And Super Ego and ID... dark hair

Falling - slanted over his forehead,

He brushes it back,

It falls awkward again.

Mama is ironing the assorted Hosen,

Large and middling and small,

Shaking her head also in disgust.

How that Kinder canst machen

Such messes of - Alles!

Indicated kinder is in corner,

Facing the wall,

As is his usual condition, drawing

Little stick-figures

Shooting at each other,

Bang!

Bang!

(... this last shot, shouted out sehr loud!)

Papa looks up,

Shakes his head in another direction

And says to Mama:

"Don't you think time it ist

to taken our Son... to the Zoo?"

Mama wisely replies:

"Ach du Liebe,

Zoo-keeper kommen and get him, Papa,

if they want him badly enough."

[Guest Mike]

Moe info in the nvasion fleet:

174 ships weer commandeered from the merchant fleet, plus more from France and Holland. a minimum speed of 12 kts was desired but they had to settle for 8 in order to get the numbers.

the navy planned to take over 200 fishing boats and 100 other small craft to get close to the beach near Brighton. These were supposed to be capable of 7 kts, but that was absolute top limit for many. They were to be mostly crewed by 16-17 year old civilians!

1600 motor fishing vessels were requisitioned as infantry transports, barge pushers and communication boats.

Barges came in a number of sizes & styles.

2318 Prahms came from the Rhine & were mostly powered. 1336 were type A1 (126 feet long), and 982 were type A2 - 164 heet overall. These were modified to carry tanks and trucks, but could only unload onto dry land if beached by an outgoing tide.

There were about 100 AF barges powered by aero engines driving propellors, and 18 AS armoured powered barges with concrete sides that could carry 10 assaut boats each.

Type B barges were modified A's to offload tanks into up to 4 m of water. 70 such barges weer ordered. They were unpowered.

Type C barges were designed to carry floatign tanks - these were very wide due to the pontoons on each side. these barges were new-build and offloaded through the stern. It doesn't say how many were built.

20 Herbert ferries weer built - catamarans made by linking closed pontoon floats from eth Austrian Herbert Bridge - they were big enough to carry 2 x 88mm flak, and powered by 750hp aero engines and 75hp Ford V8 truck engines.

another 25 heavy pontoon ferries - they weer much more stable than the Herberts, and carried a Flak unit of 1 x 88mm and 2 x 20mm guns each.

5 coasters were converted to floating batteries - 4 with 150mm guns the other with 105's, and all had 20m A. 27 smaller vessels had 75mm and 37mm AA, but these were very cramped and "proved less satisfactory".

conversion and construction could not keep up to schedule - in Germany on August 8 only 331 of 436 vessels had been delivered to yards for the work to be done, while in France on 26 August only 175 of 224 planned had been completed.

The best yards were Amsterdam, Rotterdam and Antwerp. At one port (Stettin) the yard had only 75 Polish workers to convert 38 ships.

Getting hold of tugs with the requierd 250 hp to tow barges proved difficult too - in the end the numbers weer obtained but many were not powerful enough for a standard "tow" of 1 powered and 1 unpowered barge, so many barges would have to be towed or lashed to merchant ships for transit.

[Rolend]

@Stalin LOL what a sight that would of been to see that throw together invasion fleet aproaching England. I wonder how many would of made it half way acorss the chanel before the RAF and the RN would of sent them to the bottem. I mean most of those craft could of been sunk simply by a Spitfire doing a strafing run. Had Hitler tried it I am not sure he would of recovered from the disater.

[Exel]

Originally posted by Lars:

And again, in the game, German is forced to attack Russia. Usually by 42 at the latest. But it was never a necessity and there's no evidence Stalin would have come riding to the UK's rescue.

Actually it was Stalin's intention to let UK and Germany fight each other to exhaustion and then collect the fruits with the rebuilt Red Army. Certainly the Red Army wouldn't have been up for the task in 1941 (though it is debatable if that had kept Stalin from doing it, he was a madman after all), but before 1945? Definitely.

Granted, it is a debated subject among historians, but personally I have no illusions of Stalin's good intentions and staying behind his borders. After all he had already attacked Poland and Finland and annexed parts of Poland and Romania. Germany was not only a threat, but also a juicy target.

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by Rolend:

@Stalin LOL what a sight that would of been to see that throw together invasion fleet aproaching England. I wonder how many would of made it half way acorss the chanel before the RAF and the RN would of sent them to the bottem. I mean most of those craft could of been sunk simply by a Spitfire doing a strafing run. Had Hitler tried it I am not sure he would of recovered from the disater.

Exactly - IMHO any troops actually sent to Britain would have been lost. that's somewhere in the region of 250-500,000.

An early Stalingrad.

The political consequences might have been enormous - the USSR gets keen to attack, the USA maybe also, but also possibly decides Germany isn't such a threat and doesn't institute Lend-Lease??

Japan doesn't rely upon Germany as an ally and rethinks war??

Various minor Balkan powers do not side with Germany - a couple become pro-allied and form a block with Yugoslavia??

The DAK never sails and the British kick the Italians out of Nth Africa - French units in Africa and Syria join the allies.

All speculation of course, but it would ahve been a massive defeat with consequences....

[Desert Dave]

Originally posted by Desert Dave:

Ein Kleine Scherz:

Austria, early 20th Century.

Papa is sitting in favorite easy chair,

Shaking his head in disgust

After reading of the latest news from Vienna,

Some Dumkopf talking of Ego

And Super Ego and ID... dark hair

Falling - slanted over his forehead,

He brushes it back,

It falls awkward again.

Mama is ironing the assorted Hosen,

Large and middling and small,

Shaking her head also in disgust.

How that Kinder canst machen

Such messes of - Alles!

Indicated kinder is in corner,

Facing the wall,

As is his usual condition, drawing

Little stick-figures

Shooting at each other,

Bang!

Bang!

(... this last shot, shouted out sehr loud!)

Papa looks up,

Shakes his head in another direction

And says to Mama:

"Don't you think time it ist

to taken our Son... to the Zoo?"

Mama wisely replies:

"Ach du Liebe,

Zoo-keeper kommen and get him, Papa,

if they want him badly enough."

Exegesis,

As is appropriate, given

Recent discussions, and

How very wrong most assumptions are,

Going all the way back

To Thucydides,

The Golden Age Historian.

It is NOT what you can see,

Or read, literally,

Nor what you can - ken

Using merely yer 5 circumscribed senses.

In above story/joke,

There are things that are NOT there,

Much like in the story,

The Hound of the Baskervilles.

1) The son very likely has the same falling over hair as the Father, and yet, what's missing is what's vital... the mustache.

Neatly and completely separating

Father from son, maturity wise; however

You might "6th sense" that there IS one,

Even if caused by the Son drinking

A glass of milk.

2) Freud has been mentioned, as a figure of disgust. Freudian "psychoanalytic theory" might suggest, for those inclined to speculate in such existential dynamics, that the Son harbors a deeply secreted desire to... kill the Father.

Therefore:

First bang!

The ineffectual and "lazy" Father in his easy chair has taken his best shot at resented Mother figure and... missed.

Second bang!

The Mother with the "iron hand" does not.

Which is WHY the Son shouted it out!

Father is over and done with, la,

NOW I have Mother all to myself.

3) The little Beast BELONGS in a Zoo. Yet, it is the Zoo-keeper who MUST come for him, since, as with all "good GErmans" (... and "good Americans" of these times) the 2 parents abnegate responsibility, PRETENDING

That the "little Monster" deserves merely to face the 2 walls - colliding. They even let him draw out his subconscious wishes. How kind.

And yet,

KEY to the whole shebang:

The Zoo-Keeper will not come.

Nobody will.

The Child is grown,

The Wish is fulfilled.

Terribly so,

And now,

All... "not-Mothers," are to be assaulted.

Well,

That's how some "writing" works.

As Hemingway once said in Paris Review,

Edited by George Plimpton,

"You mistake my simple-seeming writing,

You are ONLY seeing, since that is ALL

You have been taught to look for,

The tip of the Iceberg."

Tra la, I have paraphrased.

Historians lie, usually not deliberately.

Historians make crucial mistakes,

Also not usually on purpose.

EVERYTHING I read or hear, every single

Item of "WW-2 History," well,

Pardon, it's only me,

But I don't believe it.

Literally.

Jokes and Myth - now therein

You'll ALWAYS find

The acorn that becomes

The mighty Oak tree.

You just... gotta find it.

_____________________________________

**BTW, NOBODY has to read this, though,

I suspect one or two out there

May take something very small,

That they need.

Which took me ~ 40 years to learn.

Either way,

Read it, don't read it,

Say la vie, fine by me,

The World,

A Forum,

Does not exist on "nuts & bolts" alone.

LOLOL!

(... musing... this would be a good last post)

[ May 17, 2006, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[Guest Mike]

Google can't translate that

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Nor can I. We need a DD Translator Module...

[Retributar]

I was just watching the 'History Channel'...Topic [battle of Britain].

Here, they mentioned that Hitler required Goerring to have 'Air Superiority' by Sepetmber 15th/1940 before the Weather Condition's deteriorated so as to make 'Operation Sealion' a no-go!.

If...that is really the case,...then i would like to see a 'Seasonal/Weather' reality incorporated into the game so that invasion's can take place within certain timeframe's during the year!.

Not only that!...but from another source, can't remember where from... they stated that because of the Channel's roughness for sea-going vessel's that these German Landing Barge's might have to be towed by Destroyer's & Cruiser's to get to their designated landing area's!. If true, maybey someone know's more about this!...please enlighten us!.